IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #74

[Shiressleuth]

Based on the Indianapolis case quoted yesterday and the report I linked today I don't think DNA or forensics will be back for weeks. That's why Ives is retiring and no POI's have been excluded or turned into suspects and charged IMHO.

 

[sleuther0192837465]

I thought it was interesting that the police are STILL so tight-lipped about the case...kinda like LE in this case...and look what that reporter had uncovered. Incredible circumstances re: RS and the circumstantial evidence so far. I just want to see if they crack that code! lol

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Zodiac-Suspect-ROSS-SULLIVAN&highlight=zodiac

I agree about LE being tight lipped. I’d like to know why, after all these years? Honestly, I feel it didn’t do LE any good by doing that. RS was right under their noses & really seems to fit the profile. I want to see if they crack the code as well! Here’s hoping!
Thank you for the link to the thread I will go there & keep my Zodiac posts off here. MOO


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[Sleuthin' n TX]

I have been reading the last few pages of discussion and have a few thoughts to add:

1. On the poll...I don’t know whether DN could be involved. I don’t rule it out. But it seems apparent they don’t have enough evidence to link him to the crime for now.

But I can’t tell you how many times cases I have followed that are eventually solved end up unearthing evidence that convicts one of the original POIs.

2. On hatchets, one POI the Delphi investigators apparently went to see (DN) has been charged with another hatchet related offense. This is why the conversation steered this way. People here didn’t fabricate the possibility of a hatchet.

The people discussing it being sharpened were analyzing whether or not the weapon would still match the wounds (if used at all) because sharpening would change the appearance/shape. This is valid because positively identifying the weapon used would be helpful to securing a conviction.

I also do see the relevance of discussing the likelihood that *if* a hatchet was used, the person using it would likely be an outdoorsman, camper, or other hobbyist who would have some pre-existing use and experience with hatchets.

And exploring types of hatchets would help us further consider what items could be hidden under clothing and which might not.

3. All that said, I would love to see some additional ideas or information revealed that would help us explore alternatives to the DN hatchet theories. If I ever feel like the conversation here is getting stuck on something, I feel the best way to change it isn’t to criticize it but to interject a new idea for discussion.

I would like to hear more specifics about the additional video the police released to family. Perhaps that would stir some new possibilities. But it sounds like we only have generic info right now.

What other offense? Was there something he specifically did in IN regarding his hatchet? If so, I did not know that and would you please provide a link for that info? If I am misunderstanding what you wrote, apologies and clarify for me. TIA

Re: 3 - In MOO, I believe he was interrupted somehow...perhaps having already killed one of the girls or knocked one out, had to murder the other. I think ligature or an object striking them on the head. A gun may have drawn unwanted attention. I apologize if this is offensive to any family. You are all in my prayers.

 

[margarita25]

But Stroup did ask her something to which she replied she had been asked not to talk about the case. If it is still up I will go back and review.

Iirc the question was "have to you talked to ISP?".

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Re: 3 - In MOO, I believe he was interrupted somehow...perhaps having already killed one of the girls or knocked one out, had to murder the other. I think ligature or an object striking them on the head. A gun may have drawn unwanted attention. I apologize if this is offensive to any family. You are all in my prayers.

snipped by me

I agree. (I think a gun was used to control them, but not to murder them.) I also believe BG was interrupted. MOO


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[Steleheart]

What other offense? Was there something he specifically did in IN regarding his hatchet? If so, I did not know that and would you please provide a link for that info? If I am misunderstanding what you wrote, apologies and clarify for me. TIA

Re: 3 - In MOO, I believe he was interrupted somehow...perhaps having already killed one of the girls or knocked one out, had to murder the other. I think ligature or an object striking them on the head. A gun may have drawn unwanted attention. I apologize if this is offensive to any family. You are all in my prayers.

In IN he was accused but either not reported or not charged, I believe it was the former employer who gave him housing. hacking something when he was enraged or some such thing. I think it was the same person whose Jeep he keyed in the pictures. If someone has that link that would be helpful. If I find it I will post.

 

[Steleheart]

I have been reading the last few pages of discussion and have a few thoughts to add:

1. On the poll...I don’t know whether DN could be involved. I don’t rule it out. But it seems apparent they don’t have enough evidence to link him to the crime for now.

But I can’t tell you how many times cases I have followed that are eventually solved end up unearthing evidence that convicts one of the original POIs.

2. On hatchets, one POI the Delphi investigators apparently went to see (DN) has been charged with another hatchet related offense. This is why the conversation steered this way. People here didn’t fabricate the possibility of a hatchet.

The people discussing it being sharpened were analyzing whether or not the weapon would still match the wounds (if used at all) because sharpening would change the appearance/shape. This is valid because positively identifying the weapon used would be helpful to securing a conviction.

I also do see the relevance of discussing the likelihood that *if* a hatchet was used, the person using it would likely be an outdoorsman, camper, or other hobbyist who would have some pre-existing use and experience with hatchets.

And exploring types of hatchets would help us further consider what items could be hidden under clothing and which might not.

3. All that said, I would love to see some additional ideas or information revealed that would help us explore alternatives to the DN hatchet theories. If I ever feel like the conversation here is getting stuck on something, I feel the best way to change it isn’t to criticize it but to interject a new idea for discussion.

I would like to hear more specifics about the additional video the police released to family. Perhaps that would stir some new possibilities. But it sounds like we only have generic info right now.

BBM; I appreciate all your remarks and agree.
We have no information revealed on COD. Much speculation over the last 9 months with no facts in evidence. IMO.
For me, DN ≠ BG. However DN is in fact, a named POI with a hatchet habit. LE has said -

"there are many similarities between the cases they are investigating and the deaths of the two Indiana teens.".

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2017/09/27/hatchet-man-el-paso-county-indiana-daniel-nations/

So the reason that particular weapon came into discussion is that little LE teaser, and the discussion of tool marks, the number of those he has and the type he could easily carry. (among other things).

Honestly I am not a fan of baseless speculation on COD - what if this and what if that, etc. But that particular weapon discussion has not evolved into graphic tales of plausible COD, rather more technical aspects of the weapon itself, thankfully.

Again, for me DN ≠ BG. but he is a valid POI thus far along with other unnamed POI's. -

“Please keep in mind the Indiana State Police has received more than a thousand photos of persons alleged to be similar in appearance to the composite sketch of the Delphi person of interest,” Riley told HuffPost.

JMO

 

[kkdj]

I suspect Abby and Libby's families knows their COD's and whether or not they were SA. So, when we discuss these angles, I don't think it is surprising to them. I think however the girls were murdered breaks their hearts, but they know how.

 

[Steleheart]

If someone would like to create a memorial thread in remembrance, to give love and support to Delphi and all of Carroll County it would likely be well received.

If that would be helpful to people just PM a mod (sillybilly) or email a message to websleuthscomments@gmail.com and ask what would be appropriate and if it would be allowed.

Just a thought.

 

[Area52]

What other offense? Was there something he specifically did in IN regarding his hatchet? If so, I did not know that and would you please provide a link for that info? If I am misunderstanding what you wrote, apologies and clarify for me. TIA

Re: 3 - In MOO, I believe he was interrupted somehow...perhaps having already killed one of the girls or knocked one out, had to murder the other. I think ligature or an object striking them on the head. A gun may have drawn unwanted attention. I apologize if this is offensive to any family. You are all in my prayers.

http://www.tennessean.com/story/new...ero-tolerance-temper-landlord-said/717253001/

According to his former landlord, he was very proficient with a hatchet when he was annoyed!!!!!

 

[MellowMonday]

There has been some mention of it in the MSM so the basic facts are known

He'd never known his father. He lost his step-grandfather, with whom he was close, in 2011. And his mother was murdered at the hands of his uncle when Daniel was 17. She suffered multiple stab wounds before being dragged into the woods behind her house and covered in leaves, records said. His uncle remains in a South Carolina prison.


Lyles was the only family Daniel had left, save for his wife, their two children and his grandmother, whom he hadn't seen or spoken to in years. He wanted answers, Katelyn said. They didn't know Lyles' attacker, Matthew Stroker, 35, already had pleaded guilty to kicking Lyles in the head with steel-toed boots and had been sentenced to 16 years in prison.

http://www.jconline.com/story/news/...-nations-involved-delphi-homicides/788115001/

BBM. I was searching for a picture of DN's brother to see how much they resemble each other when I came across what I think is the obituary for his step-grandfather. <modsnip>

 

[Scarlett12]

http://m.legacy.com/obituaries/spartanburg/obituary.aspx?n=&pid=152667370&referrer=0&preview=True

I think this is it


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[margarita25]

I suspect Abby and Libby's families knows their COD's and whether or not they were SA. So, when we discuss these angles, I don't think it is surprising to them. I think however the girls were murdered breaks their hearts, but they know how.

I was juuuust coming to post this...

Do we know for sure either way if they have been informed of COD (bless their hearts )

 

[Steleheart]

I was juuuust coming to post this...

Do we know for sure either way if they have been informed of COD (bless their hearts )

Not for sure, only SM rumor which is not allowed.

 

[emptybottles]

I would bet my farmville they have evidence linking DN to all 3 murders. They are probably asking themselves if there is a #2 involved and who it is.

KN's story for 2/13 doesn't add up.

DN was not with her at the Dr Appt. Her FB post proves that.
The questions are:
Where was DN on 2/13?
Why did KN make that "missing you" post on FB?
Where did KN pick DN up from for his 2/14 parole check-in?
Was there a traumatic event for DN that occurred on 2/13?
Is this the day DN found out his step-brother was killed in Colorado Springs?

Another hole in her story is why they came to Colorado. The cause of DN's step-brothers death was reported in the newspaper early in the investigation back in January..DN knew how and why his step-brother died.
Did the DN really come to Colorado looking for revenge?

Even another hole in her story are the reports that a man and woman were involved in the menacing reports in Colorado.

I would remind you that both KN and DN were arrested with non-extraditable FTA's in Woodland Park on 9/25.
Why is KN out of jail? She is a straw buyer for a gun for DN.

How did KN buy a gun in Colorado with a warrant out for her arrest in IN?

And, DNA evidence does not take 16 months to test, it's takes a couple of hours. Maybe the paperwork and backlog is 16mo, but the test does not take that long.

If you want information on DN's step-brother just google "first homicide in Colorado Springs 2017". You can probably find a picture of him on an arrest report or sexual registry somewhere. He was homeless.

 

[Shiressleuth]

I would bet my farmville they have evidence linking DN to all 3 murders. They are probably asking themselves if there is a #2 involved and who it is.

KN's story for 2/13 doesn't add up.

DN was not with her at the Dr Appt. Her FB post proves that.
The questions are:
Where was DN on 2/13?
Why did KN make that "missing you" post on FB?
Where did KN pick DN up from for his 2/14 parole check-in?
Was there a traumatic event for DN that occurred on 2/13?
Is this the day DN found out his step-brother was killed in Colorado Springs?

Another hole in her story is why they came to Colorado. The cause of DN's step-brothers death was reported in the newspaper early in the investigation back in January..DN knew how and why his step-brother died.
Did the DN really come to Colorado looking for revenge?

Even another hole in her story are the reports that a man and woman were involved in the menacing reports in Colorado.

I would remind you that both KN and DN were arrested with non-extraditable FTA's in Woodland Park on 9/25.
Why is KN out of jail? She is a straw buyer for a gun for DN.

How did KN buy a gun in Colorado with a warrant out for her arrest in IN?

And, DNA evidence does not take 16 months to test, it's takes a couple of hours. Maybe the paperwork and backlog is 16mo, but the test does not take that long.

If you want information on DN's step-brother just google "first homicide in Colorado Springs 2017". You can probably find a picture of him on an arrest report or sexual registry somewhere. He was homeless.

Have you got a more recently dated link for forensic turnaround in Indiana than the one I posted from 2007 to back up the couple of hours claim?

Also if DN's brother was a RSO do you have a link for that claim too?

 

[kkdj]

I would bet my farmville they have evidence linking DN to all 3 murders. They are probably asking themselves if there is a #2 involved and who it is.

KN's story for 2/13 doesn't add up.

DN was not with her at the Dr Appt. Her FB post proves that.
The questions are:
Where was DN on 2/13?
Why did KN make that "missing you" post on FB?
Where did KN pick DN up from for his 2/14 parole check-in?
Was there a traumatic event for DN that occurred on 2/13?
Is this the day DN found out his step-brother was killed in Colorado Springs?

Another hole in her story is why they came to Colorado. The cause of DN's step-brothers death was reported in the newspaper early in the investigation back in January..DN knew how and why his step-brother died.
Did the DN really come to Colorado looking for revenge?

Even another hole in her story are the reports that a man and woman were involved in the menacing reports in Colorado.

I would remind you that both KN and DN were arrested with non-extraditable FTA's in Woodland Park on 9/25.
Why is KN out of jail? She is a straw buyer for a gun for DN.

How did KN buy a gun in Colorado with a warrant out for her arrest in IN?

And, DNA evidence does not take 16 months to test, it's takes a couple of hours. Maybe the paperwork and backlog is 16mo, but the test does not take that long.

If you want information on DN's step-brother just google "first homicide in Colorado Springs 2017". You can probably find a picture of him on an arrest report or sexual registry somewhere. He was homeless.

Agree with all of this! Thank you!

 

[Hatfield]

Ive always wondered if DN went there just for revenge. It made no sense to me that they were just going there to help find out more about his death or whatever the story was.

I think he went there on a mission and maybe thought he was out on bail or maybe had some other plan to get access to him.

As far as the rifle purchased I think the reason they had gotten a long gun is those are not nearly as restricted as handgun purchases are. You can usually buy long guns without much paperwork if any.

Im not sure if you still can do this but not too many years ago you could buy a long rifle 22 with no paperwork at all except a license to prove you were over a certain age.

 

[emptybottles]

Have you got a more recently dated link for forensic turnaround in Indiana than the one I posted from 2007 to back up the couple of hours claim?

2010 - 2-4 weeks.
https://www.cga.ct.gov/2010/rpt/2010-R-0086.htm

8/1/2017
"Melanie Wagner, a forensic DNA analyst with the state, told 13 Investigates the lab works to turn around DNA samples collected from crime scenes within 90 days. "
https://www.wthr.com/article/dna-an...omparisons-early-opportunity-missed-in-messel

The test itself only takes a couple of hours to run. But if you only have one working machine and it's broken or if you do not have the trained staff to run the test then samples are stuck in a long backlog.

Also if DN's brother was a RSO do you have a link for that claim too?

It's not a claim but a postulation. "probably/or" . I'm basing that on who he was living with, how/where they are living and local knowledge of homeless camps in my neighborhood. This is one of the better descriptions. http://gazette.com/colorado-springs...omeless-camp/article/1611188?custom_click=rss

It get's cold at night here. Shelters are available for homeless. If homeless do not go to those shelters it's a good assumption that it's because they are fugitives or have drug problems.

Obviously I do not live in Indiana.

 

[kizzykat]

There are some things I check daily or nearly daily.
Last night I checked Teller Co jail and DN was still shown there with his charges listed.
Just now I checked and a pop-up says "Inmate is released".
http://www.co.teller.co.us/ArchonixXJailSites/ArchonixXJailPublic/Default.aspx

So I checked El Paso Co jail thinking they moved him back there but it says "No results found" when searching his name. I thought maybe he could literally be in transit at the moment and not checked into El Paso Co yet, but he doesn't have a hearing till 11/29 in El Paso Co so it wouldn't make sense to transport him there now would it?
https://www.epcsheriffsoffice.com/inmate-search#!/search

Wonder if someone bailed him out?

https://www.courts.state.co.us/dockets/index.cfm#results