Found Deceased IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #83

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Beth11311

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Reading over the last few pages this evening, they’re rife with shining examples of why we are all so discombobulated. We have a million different theories, from the sketch origination or usefulness, to ‘do they or don’t they’ have DNA, even to some who believe LE has BG fingered but is unable to lock him down. And a lot of this is because of the confusing and somewhat potentially misleading information coming from LE. I’m very glad that they have passed it over to GBI for another look - which I can’t see them having any reason to do if they had any solid POIs.

Regarding DNA. If they don’t have ANY (which I find hard to believe), then the only reason I can imagine they would be swabbing potential POIs is in the hopes that down the road newer technology might allow them to retrieve it (like the M-vac system NIN brought to the table recently - o/t it’s amazing and really something I would suggest learning up on if it’s of interest). Cold cases have been broken when new testing systems have become available. What I hope is that they have DNA that they can not conclusively rule-in as belonging to BG, and/or it’s just as simple as them not having a match, yet. Because if they don’t have DNA, as BoP has pointed out, this is going to be a very tough case to take to trial. The problem only begins to be solved with finding BG, but actually convicting him and getting reasonable doubt off the table, that’s going to be the real marathon. Just look at how many tips have been called in on people who “look like” the sketch? IMO at this point, the sketch may have harmed the case, rather than helped. I’m fearful that without some real bad luck for BG or a really big break for LE, he may skate on this and the girls won’t get the justice they so desperately deserve...and I do believe he will kill again. This man is a monster...the one thing I think we can ALL agree on.

We haven’t done this in a while, but with some new faces about perhaps we could bring back the personal poll on our BG because it always helps to see what others are thinking.

Bridge Guy:
1. SK or no?
2. Local (25 mi radius), semi local (50-75 mi) or non local?
3. what age range do you believe he is?
4. Homeless or not?
5. Planned attack or spontaneous?
6. Lone wolf or accomplice


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Beth11311

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Well it cost taxpayer money for LE to fly to was it Arizona to interview DN and them knowing likely he wasn't the guy? Same with the RL fiasco it cost man hours etc. Not understanding why follow false leads if LE knows there is no connections?
I bet the composite looks nothing like BG that's why no one can pinpoint him specifically as to being the murderer of Libby and Abby. JMO

Colorado :)


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ezrah

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I’d never participated in a search like that prior, but it seemed like LE was doing everything logical. They had maps for everyone of the trail system, and groups were sent out with a fireman for direction. The larger area was divided up on a big map at search headquarters and locations were being crossed off the map as they were called in as searched. My group was searching I’d guess a mile upstream of where the girls were found. It seemed like search professionals were at the bridge area mainly from what I was told when I registered.

As far as being informed they’d been found, we had cleared a property and were standing by the road to go to the next. A black SUV sped past going very fast. I thought it was really rude at first then I got a sinking feeling that maybe that was LE in the SUV. We started searching another property then a fellow searcher got a text from someone they know that said something like ‘they found them and it isn’t good.’ A minute or two later our fireman told us two bodies had been found, but since they weren’t ID’d, he wasn’t going to stop searching. We searched for I don’t know how long, but eventually we all went back to sign out.

MOO

Thank you so much for sharing how the search went. It does sound like a well organized operation. I can only imagine the agony you all must have felt. Truly heartbreaking.

I believe justice will come for the girls. Keep the faith:)


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Boxer

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IMHO though a plausible way to have committed the crime , there would have been crime scene tape under the bridge if that happened.
 

jamerton

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Reading over the last few pages this evening, they’re rife with shining examples of why we are all so discombobulated. We have a million different theories, from the sketch origination or usefulness, to ‘do they or don’t they’ have DNA, even to some who believe LE has BG fingered but is unable to lock him down. And a lot of this is because of the confusing and somewhat potentially misleading information coming from LE. I’m very glad that they have passed it over to GBI for another look - which I can’t see them having any reason to do if they had any solid POIs.

Regarding DNA. If they don’t have ANY (which I find hard to believe), then the only reason I can imagine they would be swabbing potential POIs is in the hopes that down the road newer technology might allow them to retrieve it (like the M-vac system NIN brought to the table recently - o/t it’s amazing and really something I would suggest learning up on if it’s of interest). Cold cases have been broken when new testing systems have become available. What I hope is that they have DNA that they can not conclusively rule-in as belonging to BG, and/or it’s just as simple as them not having a match, yet. Because if they don’t have DNA, as BoP has pointed out, this is going to be a very tough case to take to trial. The problem only begins to be solved with finding BG, but actually convicting him and getting reasonable doubt off the table, that’s going to be the real marathon. Just look at how many tips have been called in on people who “look like” the sketch? IMO at this point, the sketch may have harmed the case, rather than helped. I’m fearful that without some real bad luck for BG or a really big break for LE, he may skate on this and the girls won’t get the justice they so desperately deserve...and I do believe he will kill again. This man is a monster...the one thing I think we can ALL agree on.

We haven’t done this in a while, but with some new faces about perhaps we could bring back the personal poll on our BG because it always helps to see what others are thinking.

Bridge Guy:
1. SK or no?
2. Local (25 mi radius), semi local (50-75 mi) or non local?
3. what age range do you believe he is?
4. Homeless or not?
5. Planned attack or spontaneous?
6. Lone wolf or accomplice


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1. SK
2. semi local
3. 40-45
4. Not homeless
5. Planned
6. Lone wolf

My opinion

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cluciano63

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It is beyond me how it appears to some that LE “knows” or even has a clue as to BG’s identity. They couldn’t be more open or frank about NOT knowing, Imo. No way would LE be conducting this investigation as they have been if they “know”. People need a reason for hope and all LE can say is they won’t quit until they find him...which is what any LEO would say in any murder case. Maybe it is a matter of wanting or needing to believe that they have a suspect, I don’t know. But clearly, they do not.
Jmo
 

dub

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7:39 mark:
Supt Carter: In all of my career I don't ever remember having the photograph of the person we believe is responsible. I don't ever remember having the voice of a person that we think is responsible. Or having a sketch of the individual that we believe is responsible.

...

Those two statements made by Carter recently and within a month of each other would seem LE is steering the public away from focusing on the sketch and face in video still. He could've said focus on the gait, the clothes, posture and left it at that. But both times he took it a step further, adding comments to disregard the face, and don't think of someone from the neck up. Which ultimately is very confusing. IMO and MOO.
SBM

Yeah seriously. I mean the implication in his quote is that they do in fact believe the sketch is of the person who is responsible, right? So why in the world would they take focus away from that in lieu of some very vague and/or changeable factors in a grainy image?


Also slightly OT, but to think Carter has gotten as far as he has in his career without ever facing a single case that involved a sketch is straight up astonishing to me. Am I reading that part of the quote out of context?
 

Shiressleuth

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TY for explaining. So this won't matter hopefully because they do have other evidence-DNA, video, voice, footprints and possibly ballistics depending on manner of death. I agree about LE.

Lets say LE actually arrests someone. Lets say that BG doesn't look like the sketch. Any defense attorney will demand the alleged witnesses that contributed to the sketch and might even arrange a lineup. The point is that a defense attorney could use the very same witnesses to claim there is someone else out there that is responsible and not their client. LE had better have DNA.

The other scenario is even if BG kind of, sort of, or mostly looks like the sketch however not all or only one of the alleged witnesses can pick him out of a lineup. The defense attorney is going to use that fact to argue someone else is responsible.

The issue isn't with finding BG or arresting someone when it comes to the sketch but when it comes to the prosecution and the only thing that puts BG at that scene is the witnesses and not things like DNA, fingerprints, or phone records. What defense attorney is not going to like a situation where the alleged witnesses might all be describing similar yet different individuals rather than one, let alone the person arrested.

Superintendent Carter should probably stop talking unless he is actually going to provide useful information. This case has been hobbled by LE not providing useful information and the media being compliant rather than pursuing the story and putting pressure on LE. If left to Indiana LE I have very little confidence in their ability to solve this case. I am glad they are having GBI look into it and I only hope that Indiana LE learns something from it.
 

Shiressleuth

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It is beyond me how it appears to some that LE “knows” or even has a clue as to BG’s identity. They couldn’t be more open or frank about NOT knowing, Imo. No way would LE be conducting this investigation as they have been if they “know”. People need a reason for hope and all LE can say is they won’t quit until they find him...which is what any LEO would say in any murder case. Maybe it is a matter of wanting or needing to believe that they have a suspect, I don’t know. But clearly, they do not.
Jmo
I just wonder why tips have slowed up so much if they don't already have someone in mind. How do they know this guy even has a wife, brother etc who will turn him in? The fact is people think they have him and the comments about having hundreds of POI's didn't help either. So tips have slowed. LE need to come clean and give out some clear messages on the status of the investigation.
 

Jax49

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1. SK
2. non-local (but within 2-3 hours)
3. 40-55
4. not homeless
5. planned
6. lone wolf

#5 - may have been planned in great detail or A&L may have been random victims but I believe he was planning to kill
 

cluciano63

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I just wonder why tips have slowed up so much if they don't already have someone in mind. How do they know this guy even has a wife, brother etc who will turn him in? The fact is people think they have him and the comments about having hundreds of POI's didn't help either. So tips have slowed. LE need to come clean and give out some clear messages on the status of the investigation.

I think they have been clear. They are looking for BG. They are not ruling anyone out but have not found anyone to rule in. But I think they have ruled out all those who did a DNA test, they just are not comfortable saying this, for whatever reason. Short of saying we are basically #*@$#&*,not sure what else they can say.
 
D

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1. Unsure
2. Semi Local
3. 35 - 45
4. Not homeless
5. Unplanned
6. Unsure

Not sure whether I have changed any thoughts since this question was first asked.

KR
Reacher
 

first_light

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Bridge Guy:
1. Not SK yet
2. semi local (50-75 mi)
3. 25-45
4. Not homeless
5. Planned attack
6. Lone wolf

JMO
 

heartgoesout

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IMHO though a plausible way to have committed the crime , there would have been crime scene tape under the bridge if that happened.
Good point! But truly they don’t know what happened. I’m not tied to it but it’s possible.
 

Ozoner

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When it comes to a priofile, so much depends on whether a sexualassault occurred! I'll assume that one did, so:
1. SK
2. Indiana native with ties to Delphi; could live anywhere in the US now
3. 44--59 at the time of the crime
4. Not homeless; married with a steady work history
5. On the prowl for a victim; hadn't targeted Libby and Abby before seeing them that day
6. No accomplice
 

passepartout

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Also slightly OT, but to think Carter has gotten as far as he has in his career without ever facing a single case that involved a sketch is straight up astonishing to me. Am I reading that part of the quote out of context?

Doug Carter is a political appointee. He retired from ISP trooper duties in 2002 and since then, was elected sheriff of Hamilton County and worked in private industry.

While Carter seems quite determined to position himself front and center in the Delphi investigation, it's Holeman who's the lead investigator and has familiarity with the details. Carter's own public statements indicate that he's not so well-versed in the nuts and bolts of the case and the ISP has on occasion tried to clarify the situation, as with the sketch and witnesses.

IMO, this is a problem with this case in general - there's so little information available that it doesn't help at all to have a grandstander clouding the picture.
 

Bird of Paradise

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I just wonder why tips have slowed up so much if they don't already have someone in mind. How do they know this guy even has a wife, brother etc who will turn him in? The fact is people think they have him and the comments about having hundreds of POI's didn't help either. So tips have slowed. LE need to come clean and give out some clear messages on the status of the investigation.

How many tips do you think they should be receiving after one year?

bbm- "the fact is people think they have him" That is simply not true.

As far as Carter, every word he utters has been scrutinized for hidden meanings. It's also important to keep his words in context with the statement he made. He has appealed to more than family members when he described BG's stance, gait, etc.

People here have opined on that so much I won't go further than that.
 

Bird of Paradise

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Thanks wasn't enough.
This should be pinned to every page!

Doug Carter is a political appointee. He retired from ISP trooper duties in 2002 and since then, was elected sheriff of Hamilton County and worked in private industry.

While Carter seems quite determined to position himself front and center in the Delphi investigation, it's Holeman who's the lead investigator and has familiarity with the details. Carter's own public statements indicate that he's not so well-versed in the nuts and bolts of the case and the ISP has on occasion tried to clarify the situation, as with the sketch and witnesses.

IMO, this is a problem with this case in general - there's so little information available that it doesn't help at all to have a grandstander clouding the picture.
 
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