IN - Four sisters, ages 5-11, die in Flora house fire, Nov 2016

[FrostedGlass]

It is all poverty and economy. Any poor state is in many ways like Indiana. In terms of how easy it is to get out of poverty, Indiana has drawbacks (for example, location - not on the coast. It closes lots of opportunities). The question why Midwest works so hard to do better economically and why it doesn't work is a puzzling one.

My question to Boxer was in regard to cronyism in the court system but I found your answer interesting.

As a state, we are just a little below the middle; healthcare and environmental rankings brought us down. Some counties are hit harder during economic downturns; Elkhart Co. is highly dependent on Recreational Vehicle manufacturing so that county always takes a hard hit.
Here are IN rankings:

• No. 22 – Crime & Corrections
• No. 26 – Economy
• No. 17 – Education
• No. 25 – Fiscal Stability
• No. 43 – Health Care
• No. 26 – Infrastructure
• No. 50 – Natural Environment
• No. 7 – Opportunity

Indiana in lower half of 'Best States' ranking - Inside INdiana Business

U.S. News & World Report has released its 2023 Best States rankings, and Indiana is near the middle of the pack at No. 29. The publication evaluated 70 metrics across eight categories, including health care, education, and economy.

www.insideindianabusiness.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

An update on GR's case against Birch Tree Holdings.

Thursday, June 22, 2023
266		respm Response to Motion Thu 06/22 5:50 PM RESPONSE to Motion re263 MOTION Motion to Exclude Testimony ,264 MOTION Motion to Exclude Testimony re263 MOTION Motion to Exclude Testimony (Memo of Law in Support) filed by Gaylin Rose.(Lee, Nathaniel)
		Att: 1 Exhibit A Plaintiff's Expert Disclosure,
		Att: 2 Exhibit B Candace Ashby Depo,
		Att: 3 Exhibit C Mark Culver Depo,
		Att: 4 Exhibit D Jeff Tipton Depo,
		Att: 5 Exhibit E Todd Hetrick Depo,
		Att: 6 Exhibit F Mike Vergon Depo,
		Att: 7 Order on Response to Motion to Exclude
Tuesday, June 13, 2023
264		motion Miscellaneous Relief Tue 06/13 1:19 PM MOTION Motion to Exclude Testimony re263 MOTION Motion to Exclude Testimony (Memo of Law in Support) by Defendants Joshua Ayres, Birch Tree Holdings, LLC. (Shea, James)
263		motion Miscellaneous Relief Tue 06/13 1:16 PM MOTION Motion to Exclude Testimony by Defendants Joshua Ayres, Birch Tree Holdings, LLC.(Shea, James)
		Att: 1 Exhibit Exhibit A (P's Expert Disclosure),
		Att: 2 Exhibit Exhibit B (Dep of Mark Culver),
		Att: 3 Exhibit Exhibit C (Dep of Michael Vergon)

 

[TL4S]

An update on GR's case against Birch Tree Holdings.

Thursday, June 22, 2023
266		respm Response to Motion Thu 06/22 5:50 PM RESPONSE to Motion re263 MOTION Motion to Exclude Testimony ,264 MOTION Motion to Exclude Testimony re263 MOTION Motion to Exclude Testimony (Memo of Law in Support) filed by Gaylin Rose.(Lee, Nathaniel)
		Att: 1 Exhibit A Plaintiff's Expert Disclosure,
		Att: 2 Exhibit B Candace Ashby Depo,
		Att: 3 Exhibit C Mark Culver Depo,
		Att: 4 Exhibit D Jeff Tipton Depo,
		Att: 5 Exhibit E Todd Hetrick Depo,
		Att: 6 Exhibit F Mike Vergon Depo,
		Att: 7 Order on Response to Motion to Exclude
Tuesday, June 13, 2023
264		motion Miscellaneous Relief Tue 06/13 1:19 PM MOTION Motion to Exclude Testimony re263 MOTION Motion to Exclude Testimony (Memo of Law in Support) by Defendants Joshua Ayres, Birch Tree Holdings, LLC. (Shea, James)
263		motion Miscellaneous Relief Tue 06/13 1:16 PM MOTION Motion to Exclude Testimony by Defendants Joshua Ayres, Birch Tree Holdings, LLC.(Shea, James)
		Att: 1 Exhibit Exhibit A (P's Expert Disclosure),
		Att: 2 Exhibit Exhibit B (Dep of Mark Culver),
		Att: 3 Exhibit Exhibit C (Dep of Michael Vergon)

Any of those names mean anything to us?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Any of those names mean anything to us?

Experts in things regarding fire/arson, etc. I looked them all up and just deleted it all.

Candace Ashby is a battalion chief in the Indianapolis Fire Department with 32 years of service. One of those names is someone from Michigan, another is also with Indy FD.

 

[MistyWaters]

Experts in things regarding fire/arson, etc. I looked them all up and just deleted it all.

Candace Ashby is a battalion chief in the Indianapolis Fire Department with 32 years of service. One of those names is someone from Michigan, another is also with Indy FD.

Gosh, can’t think of one good reason why the mother of the girls would want the testimony of those fire experts excluded.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Update:

Thursday, June 29, 2023
269		ORDER: The Final Pretrial Conference & Settlement Conference previously set for 8/15/2023 at 1:00 p.m. Hammond/Central Time is CONVERTED to an IN-PERSON status conference with counsel to discuss the matters outlined above. The September 11, 2023 trial setting is VACATED. Signed by Judge Philip P Simon on 6/29/2023. (rmf)
268		REPLY to Response to Motion re263 MOTION Motion to Exclude Testimony filed by Joshua Ayres, Birch Tree Holdings, LLC, Troy Helderman.(Lemon, Jeremy)
		Att: 1 Exhibit D,
		Att: 2 Exhibit E,
		Att: 3 Exhibit F,
		Att: 4 Exhibit G

 

[IceIce9]

Court order: Flora home of deadly 2016 fire, killing 4 young girls to be demolished

FLORA, Ind. — Nearly 7 years after the tragic Flora fire took the lives of four young girls in 2016, a U.S. district court has ordered the home to be razed, or “demolished.” The o…

fox59.com

 

[Boxer]

Gosh, can’t think of one good reason why the mother of the girls would want the testimony of those fire experts excluded.

Because she believes rightly or wrongly they are all in a cover up and insurance scheme together.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Court order: Flora home of deadly 2016 fire, killing 4 young girls to be demolished

FLORA, Ind. — Nearly 7 years after the tragic Flora fire took the lives of four young girls in 2016, a U.S. district court has ordered the home to be razed, or “demolished.” The o…

fox59.com

Thanks for the link.

The order filed on Aug. 16 stated that the parties involved confirmed there was, “no need for continued preservation of the property at 103 E. Columbia Street, Flora.”

It went on to say the parties nor the court had any objection to the “razing of the damaged property.”

 

[MistyWaters]

Court order: Flora home of deadly 2016 fire, killing 4 young girls to be demolished

FLORA, Ind. — Nearly 7 years after the tragic Flora fire took the lives of four young girls in 2016, a U.S. district court has ordered the home to be razed, or “demolished.” The o…

fox59.com

From your link, still awhile to go….

“The civil trial is scheduled for sometime in early 2024 as of now.”

 

[FrostedGlass]

I tried to update this on July 20 but apparently there were too many attachments. So the entries before that date are in a different format from the more recent ones.

Wednesday, August 23, 2023
280		NOTICE of Hearing/Deadlines: SETTLEMENT CONFERENCE set for 9/6/2023 12:30 PM (central) in US District Court - Hammond before Judge Philip P Simon. (nac)
Wednesday, August 16, 2023
278		ORDER: TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN: All parties have this day appeared before me by counsel, and all have confirmed that they have no need for the continued preservation of the property at 103 E. Columbia Street, Flora, Indiana, where the fire occurred that gives rise to this action. Neither the parties nor this court have any objection to the razing of the damaged property. Signed by Judge Philip P Simon on 8/16/2023. (mrm)
Tuesday, August 15, 2023
279		STATUS CONFERENCE held on 8/15/2023 before Judge Philip P Simon. The plf is present in person and by counsel Nathaniel Lee. (Note: Attorney Lee indicates that attorney Faith E. Alvarez is w/d from the case). The dfts are present by attorneys: Jeremy D. Lemon for Birch Tree Holdings, Inc., Jonathan A. Bont for dft Joshua Ayres and Samantha J. Mihail for dft Troy Helderman. Discussion on case with the Court and all counsel providing information and comments regarding the status of the case. After discussion with Attorney Lemon the Court ORDERS that a renewed motion for summary judgment may be filed within 30 days with a reply due in 15 days. The parties agree that they are willing to discuss settlement. The parties meet briefly with the Court to explore that issue for potential discussions in the future. (Court Reporter Stacy Drohosky.) (nac)
Wednesday, August 09, 2023
277		Plaintiff's REPLY to Response to Motion re271 First Motion to Strike Defendant's Expert or Motion to Exclude Impermissible Testimony filed by Gaylin Rose. (nal)
276		ORDER granting275 Motion for Leave to File Reply Brief. The Clerk shall detach and separately file plaintiff's [DE 275-2] reply brief in support of her previously filed271 Motion to Strike. Signed by Judge Philip P Simon on 8/9/23. (nal)
Tuesday, August 08, 2023
275		by Gaylin Rose Motion for Leave of Court to File Reply Brief in Support of Plaintiff's Previous Motion to Strike Defendants' Expert/Motion to Suppress Kitchen Smoke Alarm, Instanter .(Lee, Nathaniel)
		Att: 1 Proposed Order on Motion for Leave to File Reply Brief,
		Att: 2 Reply Brief,
		Att: 3 Exhibit Reply Brief

Thursday, July 20, 2023
274
MOTION Designation of Evidence Supporting Response Brief Opposing Plaintiff's Motion to Strike Defendants' Expert, Todd Hetrick, or, Alternatively, Motion in Limine re273 Response to Motion by Defendants Joshua Ayres, Birch Tree Holdings, LLC, Troy Helderman.(Lemon, Jeremy)
Att: 1 Exhibit A through Att: 18, Exhibit R
273
RESPONSE to Motion re271 First MOTION to Strike Defendant's Expert or Motion to Exclude Impermissible Testimony filed by Joshua Ayres, Birch Tree Holdings, LLC, Troy Helderman. (Lemon, Jeremy)
272
RESPONSE to Motion re270 First RULE 12(f) MOTION to Strike268 Reply to Response to Motion, Motion to Strike filed by Joshua Ayres, Birch Tree Holdings, LLC, Troy Helderman. (Lemon, Jeremy)

Thursday, July 06, 2023
271
First MOTION to Strike Defendant's Expert or Motion to Exclude Impermissible Testimony by Plaintiff Gaylin Rose. (Lee, Nathaniel)
270
First RULE 12(f) MOTION to Strike268 Reply to Response to Motion, Motion to Strike by Plaintiff Gaylin Rose. (Lee, Nathaniel)

 

[Charlot123]

My question to Boxer was in regard to cronyism in the court system but I found your answer interesting.

As a state, we are just a little below the middle; healthcare and environmental rankings brought us down. Some counties are hit harder during economic downturns; Elkhart Co. is highly dependent on Recreational Vehicle manufacturing so that county always takes a hard hit.
Here are IN rankings:

• No. 22 – Crime & Corrections
• No. 26 – Economy
• No. 17 – Education
• No. 25 – Fiscal Stability
• No. 43 – Health Care
• No. 26 – Infrastructure
• No. 50 – Natural Environment
• No. 7 – Opportunity

Indiana in lower half of 'Best States' ranking - Inside INdiana Business

U.S. News & World Report has released its 2023 Best States rankings, and Indiana is near the middle of the pack at No. 29. The publication evaluated 70 metrics across eight categories, including health care, education, and economy.

www.insideindianabusiness.com

I’ll tell you why opportunity ranks high, IMHO.

If I wanted to open a business requiring several office managers, or some small business not needing generations of certain culture of work (e.g. sewing masks vs making semi-conductors), Indiana has cheap labor. If I open the business in the area where I live, it won’t be self-sustainable because out minimum wage is way above the federal.

I know someone who buys houses in Indiana, very cheap, unbelievably cheap per our prices, restores them (he is handy) and rents out. A business, and an opportunity. What would cost 70K in Indiana would be 500 K where I live. Nothing is less.

So, yes, opportunity is there, but what Indiana needs is big businesses. And big businesses, offshoots of the Silicone Valley, would probably open up in Seattle, NYC or Boston. Well, add “spills” into Oregon or NV, but that won’t reach Midwest.

When I was leaving Iowa, another MW state, eons ago, it was on the rise. I can’t blame current politicians for the situation at MW, because jobs were lost in the 90es. But all problems that MW has now - drugs, crime, bad penitentiary system, all that we are blaming its inhabitants for - is not their fault. It is the fault of those who so happily outsourced so many jobs in the 90es.

 

[FrostedGlass]

An update on her court case:

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Wednesday, September 06, 2023
281		SETTLEMENT CONFERENCE held on 9/6/2023 before Judge Philip P Simon. Pla appeared by atty Nathaniel Lee with plf Gaylin Rose. Dfts present by: James J. Shea, Sr. Jeremy D. Lemon, Jonathan A. Bont, and Samantha J. Mihail. In addition, dfts Joshua Ayres and Troy Helderman are present in person. The parties negotiate in good faith and settlement is attained. The confidential settlement terms are placed on the record. Parties Gaylin Rose, Joshua Ayres and Troy Helderman are placed under oath regarding the terms of the settlement. The court vacates any previous pending deadlines and sets a Telephone Conference for: 3/8/2024 11:30 AM (central time) in US District Court - Hammond before Judge Philip P Simon. This telephone conference will proceed only if the case does not settle. At this time the court indicates that the case will be termed administratively. At a later date the parties will move to close the date officially. Stipulations of dismissal are due by 3/1/2024. (Court Reporter Stacy Drohosky.) (nac)

 

[FrostedGlass]

Hat tip @TL4S for the article
There are a lot of photos included.
[snips]
(Mike) Vergon, a former ATF fire investigator, now runs his own private fire investigations firm.
Attorneys for Rose hired Vergon to investigate the cause of the fire as part of a wrongful death lawsuit against the building’s owners.
...
Adam Ayres, a next-door neighbor, rushed into the house the night of the fire. This was before police or fire arrived. Atres explained he was trying to reach the stairway leading to the bedroom where all four girls slept. Smoke drove him back.

But before exiting the house, Ayres told investigators he saw a two-inch wide path of flame that led from the back porch to the kitchen.

“He got a pretty good view and described it in detail,” said Vergon.
“We came to our determination that it was a set fire,” Vergon explained.

Vergon said he is 100% confident in his assessment. Vergon will also be a potential witness in the upcoming wrongful death case. That trial is expected to begin before year’s end.

Indiana State Police: Mother Gaylin Rose ‘not a suspect’ in deadly Flora fire investigation

FLORA, Ind. — Indiana State Police Superintendent Douglas Carter surprised us. In two previous two stories FOX59/CBS4 did on the 2016 Flora fatal fire, requests were made to speak with State Police…

fox59.com

by: Steve Brown — Chief Investigator
Posted: May 23, 2023 / 10:05 PM EDT
Updated: May 23, 2023 / 10:50 PM EDT

 

[FrostedGlass]

I think this case that I've been following may be the wrongful death lawsuit. Mike Vergon's name is listed among the depositions.

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[Charlot123]

IDK. This is my deepest dive, but I have never seen a situation elsewhere like RL being in front of a judge and saying something knowing and cryptic to the court during sentencing.

Ex-Judge Fouts' obsessive criminal pursuit of an underage prostitute was likely well known in the extensive shady side of Delphi, making RL's statement make complete sense.


“Maybe in the future no one else will be murdered in my backyard,” Logan told Carroll Superior Judge Kurtis Fouts, apparently to the surprise of his own attorney, when asked if he wished to speak up for himself."

Delphi property owner sentenced to more than three years in jail for habitual traffic violations

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind.– The owner of the land where two Delphi girls were found murdered in February was sentenced to almost four years in prison on illegal driving charges. Ron Logan, 77, plea…

cbs4indy.com

It is almost ironic that former Judge Kurtis Fouts called RL "a danger to the comminity". Of course, drunk driving is, but isn't pedophilia? And I am positive that attorney Fouts' practice is flourishing because he knows all judges.

 

[DeDee]

Hat tip @TL4S for the article
There are a lot of photos included.
[snips]
(Mike) Vergon, a former ATF fire investigator, now runs his own private fire investigations firm.
Attorneys for Rose hired Vergon to investigate the cause of the fire as part of a wrongful death lawsuit against the building’s owners.
...
Adam Ayres, a next-door neighbor, rushed into the house the night of the fire. This was before police or fire arrived. Atres explained he was trying to reach the stairway leading to the bedroom where all four girls slept. Smoke drove him back.

But before exiting the house, Ayres told investigators he saw a two-inch wide path of flame that led from the back porch to the kitchen.

“He got a pretty good view and described it in detail,” said Vergon.
“We came to our determination that it was a set fire,” Vergon explained.

Vergon said he is 100% confident in his assessment. Vergon will also be a potential witness in the upcoming wrongful death case. That trial is expected to begin before year’s end.

Indiana State Police: Mother Gaylin Rose ‘not a suspect’ in deadly Flora fire investigation

FLORA, Ind. — Indiana State Police Superintendent Douglas Carter surprised us. In two previous two stories FOX59/CBS4 did on the 2016 Flora fatal fire, requests were made to speak with State Police…

fox59.com

by: Steve Brown — Chief Investigator
Posted: May 23, 2023 / 10:05 PM EDT
Updated: May 23, 2023 / 10:50 PM EDT

Hat tips all 'round.

The photos coupled with the witness who saw the 2" strip of flames is paramount to proving arson.

Mr. Vergon was certainly generous by supplying the public with CS photos. It was sad to see their two sets of bunk beds. I imagine those sweet girls had some fun times playing with each other. Deputy Yoder said he remembered seeing the little girls smiling, playing and waving when he would pass by.

One would think cctv in the area might have shown street traffic in order to help establish a potential suspect. The Perp torched the back porch leading into the kitchen so the flames would gradually travel towards the front of the house before it garnered outside attention. They didn't expect the mom to survive either. JMO


Strong Warning -- Sensitive Content --
TimeLine with CC Deputy Yoder's Dashcam footage of the fatal fire

Dashboard camera video reveals rescue attempt in deadly Flora fire​

 

[Charlot123]

Hat tips all 'round.

The photos coupled with the witness who saw the 2" strip of flames is paramount to proving arson.

Mr. Vergon was certainly generous by supplying the public with CS photos. It was sad to see their two sets of bunk beds. I imagine those sweet girls had some fun times playing with each other. Deputy Yoder said he remembered seeing the little girls smiling, playing and waving when he would pass by.

One would think cctv in the area might have shown street traffic in order to help establish a potential suspect. The Perp torched the back porch leading into the kitchen so the flames would gradually travel towards the front of the house before it garnered outside attention. They didn't expect the mom to survive either. JMO


Strong Warning -- Sensitive Content --
TimeLine with CC Deputy Yoder's Dashcam footage of the fatal fire

Dashboard camera video reveals rescue attempt in deadly Flora fire​

Poor GR. I feel so bad that this case was never as publicized as Delphi. That they never had the fund even comparable... I bet they'd know who did it, with a big fund. And what can GR tell LE? She is a victim, like the other moms.

 

[Charlot123]

A Youtuber, MEOWZEDONG, has been covering this case for a long time and recently did some digging into the refusal to release the 911 recording. Credit for some of the following that I'm posting goes to her.
Also, thanks to @chaz.

On June 13, 2017, Fox reporter, Aishah Hasnie, requested any 911 recordings related to the November 2016 fatal house fire in Flora. Carroll Co. refused to release them and AH filed a formal complaint, which the Office of the Public Access Counselor received on July 10, 2017.

Here is a link to his opinion https://www.in.gov/pac/files/advisory/17-FC-167.pdf
He writes at length about the issue and ends with this:
It is my opinion that as a general premise, 911 tapes are part of the daily record of activity. It is conceivable that many 911 calls are taken and handled in a routine matter and often do not involve an alleged crime or lead to an investigation of criminal activity. It is my opinion that those 911 tapes are presumed to be public records subject to disclosure under the APRA. See I.C. § 5-14-3-3.
CONCLUSION
Based on the foregoing, it is the Opinion of the Public Access Counselor that Carroll County E-911 violated the Access to Public Records Act.

I just saw a video of Meowzedong with GR. A great video, and GR says very reasonable things. They communicated with Meowzedong very well. Additional sad fact, GR said Keyara was autistic - not formally diagnosed, but mom and relatives knew it. So sad, for all of the kids, but one was a vulnerable child. And BTW, GR makes total sense. She is 35 now. Was in her late 20es when she lost her four daughters. Of course, she has PTSD, of course, she is angry, but the fact that she trusted Meowzedong indicates that she still can trust, only people have to be compassionate. I highly recommend that video. I don't know if links are allowable, but Meowzedong posted it where she usually posts about this case.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I just saw a video of Meowzedong with GR. A great video, and GR says very reasonable things. They communicated with Meowzedong very well. Additional sad fact, GR said Keyara was autistic - not formally diagnosed, but mom and relatives knew it. So sad, for all of the kids, but one was a vulnerable child. And BTW, GR makes total sense. She is 35 now. Was in her late 20es when she lost her four daughters. Of course, she has PTSD, of course, she is angry, but the fact that she trusted Meowzedong indicates that she still can trust, only people have to be compassionate. I highly recommend that video. I don't know if links are allowable, but Meowzedong posted it where she usually posts about this case.

Thanks for tip. I follow M on X and somehow missed this one.