IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[al66pine]

How About a Nolo Contendere Plea?

He needed to negotiate a deal weeks ago. The fact there is no deal is indication IMO that they're unwilling to go along with anything being offered. I'm confident that any deal being offered includes taking responsibility, and doing that would put the RCCL civil suit in peril. Obviously they view the downside to that as being greater than the downside of going through the fight for acquittal.

@SoCalDavidS Ageeing w you re above.
Anyone think a nolo contendere plea to the PR NegHom chg, rather than a straight guilty plea, could be a more palatable sounding alternative for SA?
"... the defendant neither admits nor disputes a charge, serving as an alternative to a pleading of guilty or not guilty." * bbm

Rule 11 (f) ** re criminal pleas in fed ct provides that admissibility of a plea in other procedures is governed by Federal Rule of Evidence 410.*** Similar to PR's provisions, or not?

If SA enters nolo contendere plea in PR crim case, can it be introduced into evd in civil case in FL, by RCCL as evidence of his admission of negligence in causing Chloe's death? Or would it be inadmissible, a favorable result for KS-W & AW's civil case?

----------------------------------------------------------------
* A no-contest plea, while not technically a guilty plea, has the same immediate effect as a guilty plea and is often offered as a part of a plea bargain....In federal court, the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure only allow a nolo contendere plea to be entered with the court's consent; before accepting the plea, the court is required to "consider the parties' views and the public interest in the effective administration of justice." bbm
^ Nolo contendere - Wikipedia
** Rule 11(f) of Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/Rule11.htm
*** Rule 410. Pleas, Plea Discussions, and Related Statements

 

[Lawsmygame2]

How About a Nolo Contendere Plea?
@SoCalDavidS Ageeing w you re above.
Anyone think a nolo contendere plea to the PR NegHom chg, rather than a straight guilty plea, could be a more palatable sounding alternative for SA?
"... the defendant neither admits nor disputes a charge, serving as an alternative to a pleading of guilty or not guilty." * bbm

Rule 11 (f) ** re criminal pleas in fed ct provides that admissibility of a plea in other procedures is governed by Federal Rule of Evidence 410.*** Similar to PR's provisions, or not?

If SA enters nolo contendere plea in PR crim case, can it be introduced into evd in civil case in FL, by RCCL as evidence of his admission of negligence in causing Chloe's death? Or would it be inadmissible, a favorable result for KS-W & AW's civil case?

----------------------------------------------------------------
* A no-contest plea, while not technically a guilty plea, has the same immediate effect as a guilty plea and is often offered as a part of a plea bargain....In federal court, the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure only allow a nolo contendere plea to be entered with the court's consent; before accepting the plea, the court is required to "consider the parties' views and the public interest in the effective administration of justice." bbm
^ Nolo contendere - Wikipedia
** Rule 11(f) of Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/Rule11.htm
*** Rule 410. Pleas, Plea Discussions, and Related Statements

In my opinion, the prosecution in this case would likely not accept a nolo contendere plea in exchange for a plea deal. The prosecution will likely only, in exchange for plea deal, accept a plea of guilty. At least I would like to think so. Fortunately, the prosecution is the party that sets the terms of the plea deal and in this case has already stated that in exchange for a plea of guilty they would give him no jail time and he would be placed on probation...

 

[Lawsmygame2]

How About a Nolo Contendere Plea?
@SoCalDavidS Ageeing w you re above.
Anyone think a nolo contendere plea to the PR NegHom chg, rather than a straight guilty plea, could be a more palatable sounding alternative for SA?
"... the defendant neither admits nor disputes a charge, serving as an alternative to a pleading of guilty or not guilty." * bbm

Rule 11 (f) ** re criminal pleas in fed ct provides that admissibility of a plea in other procedures is governed by Federal Rule of Evidence 410.*** Similar to PR's provisions, or not?

If SA enters nolo contendere plea in PR crim case, can it be introduced into evd in civil case in FL, by RCCL as evidence of his admission of negligence in causing Chloe's death? Or would it be inadmissible, a favorable result for KS-W & AW's civil case?

----------------------------------------------------------------
* A no-contest plea, while not technically a guilty plea, has the same immediate effect as a guilty plea and is often offered as a part of a plea bargain....In federal court, the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure only allow a nolo contendere plea to be entered with the court's consent; before accepting the plea, the court is required to "consider the parties' views and the public interest in the effective administration of justice." bbm
^ Nolo contendere - Wikipedia
** Rule 11(f) of Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/Rule11.htm
*** Rule 410. Pleas, Plea Discussions, and Related Statements

to answer whether a NC plea could be introduced in civil action...yes, if the court accepts this NC plea and SA is found guilty.

 

[Snoods]

Bizarre.... It’s as though they thought they were in a shopping mall instead of on a Cruise ship. What about all the open decks with nothing but railing between them and the ocean? The only reason this deck 11 had windows is... I believe.... because it provided a covered area for shade and the bar. Without windows it would become somewhat of a steamy sauna type environment wouldn’t it. My, wouldn’t that be pleasant?

I don’t believe for a nanosecond he thought the window was closed. Maybe if it was happenstance that he was walking by and he quickly lifted her up to the window before realizing it was open, but even that is pretzeling all common logic and judgement. He hung out the window and gazed up, down and all around before chucking little Chloe up there.

If we are to believe he really can’t differentiate between windows and no windows, this is a serious handicap. These were even tinted windows. Does he have a history of walking into glass doors and hurting himself?

It seems there would be hundreds of shattered windows, French doors and concussions left in his wake if such were the case, because we know he would just carelessly plow through them. It would be comical if it weren’t so deadly serious.

 

[Snoods]

“Kids falling out of windows is nothing new,” he (Winkleman) said. “There are federal laws and federal standards that are designed to specifically prevent against this — things like using screens, things like using grids, things like limiting the amount that a window can open.”

Yeah! Or like tinting the windows a different color, or adding big ‘ol guard rails 18 inches away from the windows really high up so a toddler couldn’t reach them, or...

BBM Limiting the time the windows are open? Like an adult swim time? If a window is open no children allowed on deck?
New details emerge in Baby Chloe’s cruise ship death

 

[Chikkamma]

If we are to believe he really can’t differentiate between windows and no windows, this is a serious handicap. These were even tinted windows. Does he have a history of walking into glass doors and hurting himself?

It seems there would be hundreds of shattered windows, French doors and concussions left in his wake if such were the case, because we know he would just carelessly plow through them. It would be comical if it weren’t so deadly serious.

bbm. Here’s the thing... The default human assumption to a clear view is AIR, not glass.

This is why you hear of people accidentally walking into glass doors thinking it is open air, but never the opposite. Have you ever heard of a person NOT walking through an open door because they thought it was a closed glass door? NO. I hope the prosecutors hammer this point home as it’s one of the arguments that keep coming up in SA’s favor. But the default position to a clear view is AIR, not glass.

This is a hugely important point IMO. People don’t just walk around thinking there are glass planes in front of them when presented with a clear view.

HA, I can see it now:

Judge: Mr. Anello, please approach the bench.
SA: I can’t.
Judge: Why?
SA: Your honor, how am I supposed to get around the giant glass plane in front of me in order to get to the bench?

 

[Indy_ar]

SA said he thought the window had glass. How did her feet get outside the window tracks, if she was standing on the guard rail 15-18" out and fell, she would have hit the window sill first, right? She was a preemie, and likely wasn't more than 30" tall.

I can't see how this happened unless her held her past the sill. I think good copies of the cctv from the ship will show exactly what happened. I don’t know how closely Puerto Rico’s court follow the usa, here in Ohio my daughter was recently a juror where a 19 yo shot a 17 yo in the back over some drugs, and she said they played the street cam video several times, and slow motion, the victim’s family cried the whole time. I don’t think KW is prepared for the raw emotion this trial will bring. She'll never forget what she sees.

Though- I worry most about the surviving sibling in these situations, how are they coping while parents are distracted by not one but two lawsuits....

Just to clarify "I don’t know how closely Puerto Rico’s court follow the usa", Puerto Rico is a US territory. Per this link Downes v. Bidwell - Wikipedia they are subject to the provisions and protections of the US Constitution except for some particular circumstances where Congress makes exceptions mainly due to revenue. Their laws can vary as much as they do from state to state but only if they don't contradict the Constitution (as any other State).

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

OT/Related: If anyone is interested, the made-for-TV movie Deadly Honeymoon will air today at 4:00PM (Eastern) on LMN. The film is loosely based on the mysterious cruise ship death of George Smith.

Deadly Honeymoon (2010)
A wealthy couple take a honeymoon cruise in Tahiti, but the husband disappears without trace. The captain asks an FBI agent on holiday to investigate, believing he may have been murdered. Suspicion falls on his wife, who may have objected to his infidelities, but also a trio of Hungarian gamblers with shady secrets.

 

[mickey2942]

How About a Nolo Contendere Plea?
@SoCalDavidS Ageeing w you re above.
Anyone think a nolo contendere plea to the PR NegHom chg, rather than a straight guilty plea, could be a more palatable sounding alternative for SA?
"... the defendant neither admits nor disputes a charge, serving as an alternative to a pleading of guilty or not guilty." * bbm

Rule 11 (f) ** re criminal pleas in fed ct provides that admissibility of a plea in other procedures is governed by Federal Rule of Evidence 410.*** Similar to PR's provisions, or not?

If SA enters nolo contendere plea in PR crim case, can it be introduced into evd in civil case in FL, by RCCL as evidence of his admission of negligence in causing Chloe's death? Or would it be inadmissible, a favorable result for KS-W & AW's civil case?

----------------------------------------------------------------
* A no-contest plea, while not technically a guilty plea, has the same immediate effect as a guilty plea and is often offered as a part of a plea bargain....In federal court, the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure only allow a nolo contendere plea to be entered with the court's consent; before accepting the plea, the court is required to "consider the parties' views and the public interest in the effective administration of justice." bbm
^ Nolo contendere - Wikipedia
** Rule 11(f) of Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/Rule11.htm
*** Rule 410. Pleas, Plea Discussions, and Related Statements

I really hate the "Alford Plea", isn't this similar? The defendant agrees that there is enough evidence for a finding of guilt, so they just take a plea...that doesn't admit any guilt. That shouldn't be allowed.

 

[katydid23]

In my opinion, SA will not testify in his criminal trial. If he does, that would be huge mistake for him. However, based on his actions on the day of the incident and actions thereafter, we all know he is not that bright. He will probably make his attorney allow him to testify thinking he can convince the jury that his version of the incident is the truth. If he does, that will be good for the prosecution because, based on what we have seen from previous video, he is not a good actor or liar.

I can see him demanding to be put of the stand because he is a narcissist. I hope so...

I could see that. He could be one of those few defendants that says nothing about it until the judge asks them in court--" You do know you have the right to testify, and it is up to you, are you going to use that opportunity to do so?..."

And he replies "YES, your honour, I want to do so" .....as his attorneys sigh and look at the floor...

 

[al66pine]

Alford Plea. Nolo Contendere Plea.

I really hate the "Alford Plea", isn't this similar? The defendant agrees that there is enough evidence for a finding of guilt, so they just take a plea...that doesn't admit any guilt. That shouldn't be allowed.

@mickey2942 Yes, these two pleas are similar. But there may be a difference in whether the plea is admissible in Chloe's parents' civil action. Otherwise, not much difference for our discussion. (And possibly other differences in availability of post-conviction relief,* relevant for SA, not re her parents' lawsuit.)
Alford Plea "a guilty plea in criminal court, whereby a defendant in a criminal case does not admit to the criminal act and asserts innocence. In entering an Alford plea, the defendant admits that the evidence presented by the prosecution would be likely to persuade a judge or jury to find the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt."
"A plea under which a defendant may choose to plead guilty, not because of an admission to the crime, but because the prosecutor has sufficient evidence to place a charge and to obtain conviction in court."
"Upon receiving an Alford guilty plea from a defendant, the court may immediately pronounce the defendant guilty and impose sentence as if the defendant had otherwise been convicted of the crime."
"Defendants usually enter an Alford guilty plea if they want to avoid a possible worse sentence were they to lose the case against them at trial."
Rationale & utility for Alford Pleas, from a law review article: "As long as we have plea bargaining, he maintains, innocent defendants should be free to use these pleas to enter advantageous plea bargains without lying. And guilty defendants who are in denial should be empowered to use these pleas instead of being forced to stand trial
^ Alford plea - Wikipedia

Repeating from my previous post. Nolo Contendere (aka No Contest Plea) "... the defendant neither admits nor disputes a charge, serving as an alternative to a pleading of guilty or not guilty....
A no-contest plea, while not technically a guilty plea, has the same immediate effect as a guilty plea and is often offered as a part of a plea bargain....In federal court, the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure only allow a nolo contendere plea to be entered with the court's consent; before accepting the plea, the court is required to "consider the parties' views and the public interest in the effective administration of justice." bbm
^ Nolo contendere - Wikipedia

---------------------------------------------------
* "Post-conviction relief is a general term related to appeals of criminal convictions, which may include release, new trial, modification of sentence, and such other relief as may be proper and just. The court may also make supplementary orders to the relief granted, concerning such matters as rearraignment, retrial, custody and release on security."
Post Conviction Relief Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.

 

[al66pine]

Alford Pleas, in Puerto Rico?

I really hate the "Alford Plea", isn't this similar? The defendant agrees that there is enough evidence for a finding of guilt, so they just take a plea...that doesn't admit any guilt. That shouldn't be allowed.

@mickey2942 bbm. Courts in three states agree with you.
Per list at link, Indiana, Michigan, & New Jersey do not permit Alford Pleas, at least as of ~ 2003.
If info is there about whether Puerto Rico permits them, I missed it.

List of U.S. states by Alford plea usage - Wikipedia

 

[Forever Young]

How About a Nolo Contendere Plea?
@SoCalDavidS Ageeing w you re above.
Anyone think a nolo contendere plea to the PR NegHom chg, rather than a straight guilty plea, could be a more palatable sounding alternative for SA?
"... the defendant neither admits nor disputes a charge, serving as an alternative to a pleading of guilty or not guilty." * bbm

Rule 11 (f) ** re criminal pleas in fed ct provides that admissibility of a plea in other procedures is governed by Federal Rule of Evidence 410.*** Similar to PR's provisions, or not?

If SA enters nolo contendere plea in PR crim case, can it be introduced into evd in civil case in FL, by RCCL as evidence of his admission of negligence in causing Chloe's death? Or would it be inadmissible, a favorable result for KS-W & AW's civil case?

----------------------------------------------------------------
* A no-contest plea, while not technically a guilty plea, has the same immediate effect as a guilty plea and is often offered as a part of a plea bargain....In federal court, the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure only allow a nolo contendere plea to be entered with the court's consent; before accepting the plea, the court is required to "consider the parties' views and the public interest in the effective administration of justice." bbm
^ Nolo contendere - Wikipedia
** Rule 11(f) of Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/Rule11.htm
*** Rule 410. Pleas, Plea Discussions, and Related Statements

IMO, he'll play this out as far as it can go, and after that appeal if necessary. He can string it out for a couple of years, if need be.

IMO, as long as AW and KW have a case going, he won't plead nolo contendere, or guilty. He only has to convince one juror that he thought there was glass there, right?

IMO, he will not testify, either. He can't be compelled to testify against himself. If he goes against his lawyer's advice, it's all on him. Again, IMO, for the money being paid for the criminal defense, he best let his lawyer do the talking.

I'm afraid we will not see a speedy resolution to this charade.

 

[mickey2942]

IMO, he'll play this out as far as it can go, and after that appeal if necessary. He can string it out for a couple of years, if need be.

IMO, as long as AW and KW have a case going, he won't plead nolo contendere, or guilty. He only has to convince one juror that he thought there was glass there, right?

IMO, he will not testify, either. He can't be compelled to testify against himself. If he goes against his lawyer's advice, it's all on him. Again, IMO, for the money being paid for the criminal defense, he best let his lawyer do the talking.

I'm afraid we will not see a speedy resolution to this charade.

That is very true. Although, I love the fact that criminals are no longer allowed to be free on bond while filing appeals.

 

[al66pine]

Delaying the PR Crim Trial?
@Forever Young Agreeing w you, that SA will (or is likely to) try to delay. Two reasons, imo.
1) To try to allow Chloe's parents' Florida wrongful death action to settle or be tried before his crim trial.
2) To postpone spending "doin' time in the pokey" * in PR, if he foresees that as a possible crim case outcome. Imo, he would see conviction & doing time as a verrrry remote possibility.
Maybe he also hopes some witnesses may become unavailable to testify in crim trial. jmo

* O/T "Niki Hoeky" lyrics only............................. Niki Hoeky - P.J. Proby
O/T... Audio clip, P.J. Proby, 1967, 2 1/2 min..... youtube niki hoeky p.j. proby "doin' time in the pokey" - Bing

IMO, he'll play this out as far as it can go, and after that appeal if necessary. He can string it out for a couple of years, if need be.

IMO, as long as AW and KW have a case going, he won't plead nolo contendere, or guilty. He only has to convince one juror that he thought there was glass there, right?
IMO, he will not testify, either. He can't be compelled to testify against himself. If he goes against his lawyer's advice, it's all on him. Again, IMO, for the money being paid for the criminal defense, he best let his lawyer do the talking. I'm afraid we will not see a speedy resolution to this charade.

 

[Kindred]

Hello everyone! Been lurking for a while because with the family being silent since the video release and most of the arguments here becoming circular I was waiting for something to happen to rear my ugly head again. I did some poking back through to see what I missed and if anyone else brought this up yet but there's been some activity on the civil case.

Wiegands filed an emergency motion for a protective order to try and stop RCCL from the long planned and publicly announced refurbishment it's supposed to be going in for.

RCCL filed response requesting dismissal for failure to state a claim.

There's some other stuff but right now those are the two most interesting things in my opinion. The emergency motion gives an interesting timeline of communications with the civil lawyers and RCCL, and includes a transcript of an email from RCCL about why they won't give physical copies of the CCTV footage absent a court order (because they don't trust Winkleman and his continuing TV appearances) and have only allowed viewings. All occurring BEFORE the filing of the civil suit on Dec 12th. It also shows the family was offered access to the ship back in September to be able to do their own investigation but the legal team refused.

Part of me now wonders if this wasn't intentional. That the law firm decided to wait to file knowing that the refurbishment was coming up so that now they can claim that RCCL is "destroying evidence" with a renovation that was planned at least a year in advance of this incident. Not to mention the chance to disrupt RCCL plans and cost them money by forcing a delay in moving the ship/starting work.

I'll be uploading documents shortly.

***EDIT - Almost forgot, status conference in the civil suit is set for March 11th

 

[Kindred]

PLAINTIFFS’ EMERGENCY MOTION FOR PROTECTIVE ORDER TO PREVENT SPOLIATION OF EVIDENCE AND REQUEST FOR IMMEDIATE HEARING

CASE NO. 19-CV-25100 DLG WIEGAND VS RCCL

FILED 1/7/2020

also

WITHDRAWAL OF PLAINTIFFS’ EMERGENCY MOTION FOR PROTECTIVE ORDER TO PREVENT SPOLIATION OF EVIDENCE AND REQUEST FOR IMMEDIATE HEARING AND STIPULATION OF PARTIES

FILED 1/8/2020

withdrawal is not that interesting just says that they finally agreed to meet the ship in Barbados to inspect it without their "experts" just including this so that people can see the issue was settled

 

[Kindred]

ROYAL CARIBBEAN CRUISES LTD.’S MOTION TO DISMISS THE COMPLAINT FOR FAILURE TO STATE A CAUSE OF ACTION

CASE NO. 19-CV-25100 DLG WIEGAND VS RCCL

FILED ON 1/8/2020

also included in this upload is the accompanying

ROYAL CARIBBEAN CRUISES LTD.’S UNOPPOSED MOTION FOR LEAVE TO CONVENTIONALLY FILE VIDEO FOOTAGE REFERENCED IN MOTION TO DISMISS COMPLAINT FOR FAILURE TO STATE A CAUSE OF ACTION


Basically, RCCL isn't playing around. They're putting it right out there that there is no one to blame for this but SA

 

[Chikkamma]

ROYAL CARIBBEAN CRUISES LTD.’S MOTION TO DISMISS THE COMPLAINT FOR FAILURE TO STATE A CAUSE OF ACTION

CASE NO. 19-CV-25100 DLG WIEGAND VS RCCL

FILED ON 1/8/2020

also included in this upload is the accompanying

ROYAL CARIBBEAN CRUISES LTD.’S UNOPPOSED MOTION FOR LEAVE TO CONVENTIONALLY FILE VIDEO FOOTAGE REFERENCED IN MOTION TO DISMISS COMPLAINT FOR FAILURE TO STATE A CAUSE OF ACTION


Basically, RCCL isn't playing around. They're putting it right out there that there is no one to blame for this but SA

WOW. Thank you so much for posting this Kindred! So RCCL is unequivocally stating that the video (esp. their HD version) shows SA holding Chloe OUTSIDE the window. The debate about whether he did so or not can finally be rested.

"Here, common experience dictates that a person can fall through any open window, regardless of design, if they lean out too far, because a window is a purposeful opening in a structure for light and air. This is not a dangerous condition but an apparent and obvious feature of any window."

Omg, this is just too good...

 

[Forever Young]

WOW. Thank you so much for posting this Kindred! So RCCL is unequivocally stating that the video (esp. their HD version) shows SA holding Chloe OUTSIDE the window. The debate about whether he did so or not can finally be rested.

"Here, common experience dictates that a person can fall through any open window, regardless of design, if they lean out too far, because a window is a purposeful opening in a structure for light and air. This is not a dangerous condition but an apparent and obvious feature of any window."

Omg, this is just too good...

OMG is right! Motion to Dismiss! Hope it's granted.