IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[they'll get you]

What? I’ve never heard this before. Where did this come from?

Chloe Wiegand's family condemns the release of a video that shows moments toddler fell to death from cruise ship - CNN

 

[justbreathe]

Yes, she had to go OVER the railing, which is why he lifted her so high. But then (when viewed from the back) he then lifts her up onto the railing.

At this point in the video, you can see how much taller Sam is compared to Chloe at his right side. He shifts her to his left side, and still appears to be holding her while she sits on the railing.

IMO, he would not have been able to stoop over the railing far enough to hold her on the window ledge. The ledge is considerably lower than the railing.

Again, this is from the back.

The side view really does not allow us to see much of the railing because of the support brackets under the railing and the support beams that reach floor to ceiling. But you can just make out the railing, behind the support beams.

These brackets blend with the window frames, giving the illusion that the frames stick out farther than they really do. Someone else previously pointed that out, and was pretty much ignored. That is not the window frames, it is support brackets beneath the railing, and support beams that reach to the ceiling that we are seeing in the side view.

It has been my belief for a while that his arms and head were not able to reach past the window frame to the outside.

The same for Chloe. I could be wrong, but it appears to me that she also was not past the outer window frame, until she fell after being pitched forward by SA's rocking motion, as seen from behind.

His explanation, in the DB interview, is that he is trying to reach farther to tap the glass. He bends forward at the waist, Chloe also bends at the waist while seated on the railing.

I only see SA's forearms resting on the railing, hanging past the railing, and do not see him holding her straight out. MOO

But you can still see where the glass would be in relation to all the other windows. I think her feet were on the window frame.

 

[SaucyWalker]

It could’ve been rage. Maybe he didn’t get his own way and was fuming at another member of the party, some people don’t travel well especially with others.
I’ve known some people who sulk and fume within or are like spoilt brats and have a blind temper tantrum if they don’t get their own way.
He looks like an immature sulker that likes his little Mrs to pamper him. JMO.

I had that problem once but I divorced it.

I had the same thoughts as you (and I loved that last sentence; incidentally, I divorced "it," too, and am much better off as a result). Also, this might have been passive-aggressive behavior on SA's part; he may have harbored resentment over being asked to look after Chloe while the rest of the party was elsewhere on the ship: Where were they, anyway? Drinking? Dining? He may even have thought something along the lines of, "Oh, here we go... it's only Day One of the cruise and they're already appointing me Chloe's babysitter." I agree with you that he may be one of those sulky, pouty spoiled adults who doesn't play well with others, let alone take a week-long trip with them.

Whatever turns out to be the underlying explanation for this tragedy, there's no doubt IMO that SA alone is responsible for what happened to Chloe as he exhibited a reckless disregard for her life.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

What? I’ve never heard this before. Where did this come from?

Grandfather charged in cruise ship death describes "disbelief" at toddler's fatal fall This interview SA did.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Do people REALLY think he murdered her?? I’m not ruling anything out, and I understand the video was shocking to see, with his callous disregard to her safety. It’s horrifying for sure! Maybe I’m naive in thinking that nobody with a shred of human decency could deliberately deliver an innocent baby to a horrific death like that...I’m just curious for those who think it was deliberate, what could possibly be the motive? And WHY are her parents backing it up, if so? I’m so confused ‍

BBM Money. Front and center, right from the very start of this heinous case. Insurance, donations, lawsuit, the media circuit...MONEY. JMOO

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

RCCL has a guest conduct code. They address this issue in unsafe behavior... is in the paperwork that comes online when you check in before your cruise.

All cruise lines provide such information to ticketed passengers. In the past, you would receive a packet in the mail that included a multi-page brochure with everything you need to know about your upcoming cruise: shipboard attire, dining options, safety instructions, etc. The packet also included luggage tags to be put on your bags before you arrived at the pier and your boarding pass. Even though I had cruised frequently, I always read the entire brochure during our flight to port city. The snail-mail packet is a thing of the past, and all your pre-cruise information, luggage tags, boarding documents, etc. are available online. I still read EVERYTHING in the days prior to a cruise. I think it's safe to say that SA didn't think he needed to read any of his pre-cruise documents, and if he did, the rules weren't going to apply to him

 

[Bethan]

I see a guy who is just kind of rough with a little girl. Manhandling, as you used to hear the word used more in the past than it is now.

Perhaps, in the not so distant past, banging on the glass elicited that infectious giggle that she had as a baby, and that everyone loves to hear.

He seems to me like he no longer knows how to entertain her now that she is nearing two, growing and getting brighter everyday.

I agree. So many things to do, and all he can think of is how fun it is to bang on glass. MOO

I love this post & think you’ve hit the nail on the head!

 

[sl222]

SA's State of Mind?
@Sapphire1719 sbm Agreeing w ^ bbm. Personally I'm not saying SA planned or premeditated Chloe's death. As @neesaki and others posted, look at threads in 'Spotlight on Children' to see the staggering number of children suffering life-threatening injuries or dying at the hands of those who are supposed to love and care for them.
Motives in those cases? Not always motives as we usually think of them but adult tempers colliding w ordinary toddler or pre-school behavior, which they brand as unforgivable disobedience, and somehow trigger these adults to instantly inflict serious bodily harm or cause death. Examples of toddlers actions: interrupted Mom's boyfriend's online game, ate a cupcake she was not supposed to have, would not eat vegetables on his plate, did not put shoes on quickly enough, or not fully potty-trained and soiled the bed.
Again I'm not saying SA premeditated Chloe's death. Just based on (my interp) of vids, I believe he knowingly (after he put his head outside the window frame) suspended her in mid-air outside window frame w. a 100+ ft drop. And he dropped her. I don't know why. jmo.

It makes me wonder about some kind of subconscious hostility toward Chloe's parents that he would treat their child so recklessly, taking actions that were so highly likely to result in her death, as opposed to taking actions that would ensure she was absolutely safe. Then all he had to do after it was too late was to sob and say he's so sorry. The outcome speaks for itself.

 

[neesaki]

Who is Aunty google?

DOH! I missed the previous post.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I haven't posted much on this forum (too preoccupied with the Paighton Houston case), but I just recently took another look at little Chloe's obituary. The parents of CW are grieving and I don't think there's anyone who would say they don't feel compassion for them. I do marvel, though, at how, in the face of such a tragedy, they are able to think so strategically, to the point of even including the following information in Chloe's obituary (the paragraph below was extracted by me from Legacy.com; the bolding was done by me):

She loved chasing bubbles, splash pads, and slides. Every person who encountered her said that Chloe was the smartest and happiest baby they had ever seen. And she genuinely was...​

<respectfully snipped> I agree with your thoughts about Chloe's obituary. What really bothered me about it was the way that Chloe was given attributes of a much older child. An 18-month-old toddler who was a foodie, fashionista, sports fan, among other interests of an older child. Why the need for such embellishment? Maybe it's just me, but the content of the obituary seemed over-the-top and unnecessary.​

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

<respectfully snipped> I agree with your thoughts about Chloe's obituary. What really bothered me about it was the way that Chloe was given attributes of a much older child. An 18-month-old toddler who was a foodie, fashionista, sports fan, among other interests of an older child. Why the need for such embellishment? Maybe it's just me, but the content of the obituary seemed over-the-top and unnecessary.​

I pretty much totally agree. I mean, she was a baby...throwing food off her high chair and, um, doodying her pants.

 

[BeachSky]

I am hoping and praying the jury gets to go on a field trip. I hope they get to go to the dock and look at the 11th floor deck area for themselves.....

At very least a video retracing SA steps, what he would of been “seeing” on that 11th level.
In the Skylar Richardson trial, prosecution showed a video of the entire house, back yard..freezing frames, showing exactly the rooms, what would of been happening in each space the night in question.
Was next best thing to going there! IMO.

 

[neesaki]

It could’ve been rage. Maybe he didn’t get his own way and was fuming at another member of the party, some people don’t travel well especially with others.
I’ve known some people who sulk and fume within or are like spoilt brats and have a blind temper tantrum if they don’t get their own way.
He looks like an immature sulker that likes his little Mrs to pamper him. JMO.

I had that problem once but I divorced it.

Yes, self centered, selfish, entitled... their needs are all that matter. When not, they take it out on innocent children by bullying and abusing them.

AKA Emotionally Immature and narcissistic. Many of the child abuse and death cases we follow here are committed by their EI parents or caregivers. In this case a step GP. Maybe he was peeved that he was having to sacrifice his precious me time, and decided to antagonize or threaten Chloe, aka bullying, and he carried it too far. Whatever the case it appeared to be a deliberate act. The case of little Cooper Harris comes to mind. IMO

 

[neesaki]

They're on this dream cruise, so much to see and do...and he is compelled to "bang on the glass" of this cruise ship window for exactly what purpose? Was he trying to get someone's attention? I just really don't get it. That's probably because it's not even true, just one of SA's many confusing and senseless statements concerning the incident. During his ridiculous interview, He only begins the (fake) crying AFTER he asks for a glass of water. What is that all about, some actor trick? Then he peeks up at the interviewer to gauge his reactions to his emotional breakdown. This guy is a clown. An evil clown. JMOO

Watching that show of his just got all over me. It’s so fake and clearly contrived in any other situation it would be laughable. Disgusting.

 

[Sapphire1719]

Not totally sure, but... look around you. At all the cases where adults, parents, kill there own children. Horrible, and Tragic.

That’s, sadly, a very good point. I have two daughters similar in age to Chloe, and I just can’t fathom that type of evil towards innocent babies...that said, I don’t personally think he did it on purpose, just that he was a complete idiot. My opinion is subject to change though! Because really...it boggles the mind that someone could just be THAT stupid and careless

 

[al66pine]

Pic of Window & Safety Rail in Complaint. Who Took Pic?
Post by @MsFacetious from last thread:
"Assuming this is actually a picture from the crime scene.... Do we know who took that picture?
I guess it's possible it's from the criminal case discovery since they filed after he was charged. Maybe that's part of why they waited to file... to get any information they wanted from the criminal discovery too."
@MsFacetious Good question - about source of this ^ photo. As you say, it's possible that pic shot from just above safety rail, looking down on square blue canopy was taken by PR LE. Then provided
to SA's def atty, then to Winkleman. If a PR LE pic was used in civil suit Complaint,* would it give RCCL atty an opportunity to cross examine a witness about source?
Hypo question by RCCL atty : "Was this pic marked exhibit # 123, showing [something, whatever] a photo taken by PR LE Crime Scene Technician John Doe, in the course of the investigating SA of Negligent Homicide of Chloe?"
If so ^, doubtful Winkleman would want to use any LE-taken pic in civil suit. jmo.
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* Pix used in Complaint itself have no attributions, copyrights, or sources, except for the last pic depicting Anthem of the Seas, which shows "cruisedeckplans.com" on a deck railing.
AFAIK, no photos used by MSM have been marked or specifically attributed to PR LE, but I could have missed it/them.

 

[Forever Young]

But you can still see where the glass would be in relation to all the other windows. I think her feet were on the window frame.

Here is a good view of the railing in relation to the window frame. I wonder if a camera behind the bar might have captured this view. IMO, SA would have been in a very uncomfortable position if Chloe had her feet on the window frame.

He's behind the railing and it comes up to at least his waist level, probably higher. Consider what that railing felt like pressing on his belly.

https://content.invisioncic.com/j28...D5.jpeg.7afdc327d73a8a6c8df3c62087bd9f1c.jpeg

 

[al66pine]

SA's Interview w CBS/Begnaud. The Dry Cry & ADM.

Watching that show of his just got all over me. It’s so fake and clearly contrived in any other situation it would be laughable. Disgusting.

@neesaki Yes, ^ true. Often an arrestee like SA lets head sink forward w face not visible to camera, covers eyes w hand, makes sad, unintelligible sounds. Then drops hand, resumes speaking, and inadvertently presents viewers with The Dry Cry.
Watching this (in Nov?), I lapsed into ADM (Automatically Doubtful Mode). Jmo.

 

[neesaki]

SA's Interview w CBS/Begnaud. The Dry Cry & ADM.
@neesaki Yes, ^ true. Often an arrestee like SA lets head sink forward w face not visible to camera, covers eyes w hand, makes sad, unintelligible sounds. Then drops hand, resumes speaking, and inadvertently presents viewers with The Dry Cry.
Watching this (in Nov?), I lapsed into ADM (Automatically Doubtful Mode). Jmo.

You're spot on, al66pine. And the way he looks up as he's "drying his eyes" (though they're already dry)... to evaluate if the audience was buying his performance, is what was so very telling. I mean seriously, even for those unaware and had no clue ..... well, he gave it all away right then. IMO/ BINGO

 

[al66pine]

Who Took Pix in Complaint. When?
Pix on Fr/Seas were taken in daylight hours, some w. yellow "Caution Do Not Enter tape, closing the area. Since ship left at 10:24 pm Sat* seems likely those pix were not taken same day as poor Chloe's death.
I enlarged Complaint pic (page 6/para.16) w the "prison bar" almost in middle of image, then matched pic against Google Earth. Imo it was docked in San Juan at PanAmerican pier 1 or 2, adjoining the small airport w runway, taxiway & row of planes, running parallel to ship.

So when were pix taken, and who took them? Is it possible Winkleman used pix PR LE took, as @MsFacetious wondered?
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* Relevant times "The incident happened at 4.27pm local time and the ship departed at 10.24pm." Grandad 'had to be sedated' after dropping toddler 150ft to her death on cruise ship. pub July 9