Ixchel13
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all incredibly good points. LE=timeline=confusing[on purpose?]
IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33
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all incredibly good points. LE=timeline=confusing[on purpose?]
Snipped by me. Your post made me think, and I thank you for it. I surprisingly kind of agree about CR ... I think he was effed up and that may affect his telling of the story, though I'm definitely not letting him off the hook at all.
I also appreciate your honesty and perspective. I suppose it's possible JR was intoxicated enough to not offer to walk LS home. That could mean she stumbled out on her own ... or it could mean that someone else who was less intoxicated had the honors.
I do question, however, JR and LS getting into any type of argument at all. I don't think she would have been capable.
I agree about your statement regarding girls being ruthless. I've toyed with the idea of a girl knowing more than she's let on or being involved in some round-about way but never really addressed it head on. You're right, though ... girls can be ruthless and good at keeping secrets. It's speculation, of course, but worth considering.
Responding to my own post, LOL. I actually do question whether LS would have been able to walk anywhere on her own at that point as well. But the point remains that JR may have needed help in an effort to help her, hence those late night calls to DR and whomever.
As far as I know, we don't know much about what HT was doing. As I recall, she said that she and Lauren and at least one other person were "hanging out" until Lauren left, not long after midnight.
DB is listed on the witness list available on the PACER site, as is AF. DB and JR went into business together after graduation. DB is from Michigan. He is the one that tweeted about eating corned beef at the Runcible Spoon late in the morning after LS went missing.
We do not know anything about what JR's friends from home were doing that night, except that they were staying with him.
Ixchel13
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BandembellishedBM: that's just it. Bar witness is not in the video. PIs insert her testimony into the video narrative and it is very confusing. To me, all of the statements, about this witness, from LE and PIs must be listened to and thought about in their entirety to understand what they're saying. Any time you lift a sentence out of the narrative and use it out of context, it works however the lifter wants it to, and I think LE knows that.
To be able to ask if they needed help, and for that matter, to be coming down the stairs, leaving from seeing the boy, this witness would be on camera. It would be easy then, to totally discount her time point and description.
The only eye witness who came forward. If anyone has read my way early posts, I felt that this witness was in with these people. But, maybe she was visiting them, and when she left, saw Lauren in bad shape and called back up to the apt., and then someone matching that description came out
and had words with Lauren and she fell over and cracked her head. The witness asks if she can help, he says he has it, and asks if he can take her home. Witness says she then left the scene.
It is highly possible that this witness knows the perps. This is something LE would try to keep under wraps. When they release info, they don't give us the entire rundown of the event. According to rumor, she didn't find out Lauren was missing for a few days, and then came forward out of guilt and remorse for not helping Lauren. The other person who expressed guilt and remorse is ZC, for the same reason, she could have helped Lauren but didn't. Speculation: she found out from ZC.
Haven't posted here in quite a while, but I always get re-interested in this case around this of year. I always attend the Indiana High School state track meet which is held at IU and, once again (next week) will coincide with LS's disappearance. I was arriving from 90 minutes away in Bloomington on the Friday afternoon of June 3, 2011 and ate dinner following the track meet across the street from Kilroy's - all of this occurring simultaneously with LS being reporting missing and the earliest media reports. Anyhow, I've caught up on the last year's worth of postings here and while most of what I write below has perhaps been described in earlier threads, I thought it would be helpful to restate some of the miscellaneous that help set the stage for that evening.
I will break these into multiple postings for length purposes and to allow discussion if warranted.
1. "THE BASKETBALL GAME" - it is often mentioned that JW was at home watching, and others at SW were watching, a basketball game that night. While it's easy to presume the game was going on during the evening's activities, the only basketball game on Thursday June 2nd was Game 2 of the NBA Finals btw Miami & Dallas. Per media schedules this game began at approx 9:05 and per nba.com had a duration of 2:38. While those interested in the outcome would've had their attention held till the end since the game did hinge on the final possession, the game itself would've been completed by 11:43 Bloomington time. Video accounts of LS first leaving SW occur after midnight, so there would've been no overlap between LS being "out on the town" and JW watching the game.
2. WEATHER - wunderground.com reports that, although high temperatures were in the low 80's during those days, the temperature at 12:30AM on June 3rd was 62 degrees and would later drop to 59 degrees by 3AM. This could explain LS beginning the evening with a light jacket, though others have surmised that she could've been using the never-found jacket for pockets which her other clothing didn't have, or to sneak something in somewhere e.g. carrying a flask into a football game underneath a coat. While sunny and clear during the day, there was almost no moon out that night (just a sliver) meaning it was more dark than oftentimes. Absent streetlights/houselights in certain places, it would've been more difficult than normal for witnesses to ascertain faces or events, or to "watch someone walk to the street corner". Sunrise was at 6:21AM Friday so still 2-3 hrs of darkness after LS' timeline ends, and likely it was still dark when the nearby dumpster trash was hauled away if on schedule that morning.
3. BAREFOOT - I've always been really intrigued by this part of the night's events. Would LS have intentionally left her shoes at Kilroy's for any reason? If not, how could she have mistakenly left them there - once she was walking out on the downtown streets she surely, despite an apparent inebriated state, would've noticed she didn't have any shoes on. Couldn't she (unless kicked out/no re-entry) have returned to the bar to get them 2 minutes after she departed/realized she didn't have the shoes? The temp was in the 50's - it was not a warm night that she'd be frolicking across a grassy meadow - anywhere she went or thought about going would involve pavement and/or gravel with nearby construction-related dust/dirt/debris. And per the earlier SW video her pants were tighter and not long thus it should've been obvious to stick out to anyone who saw her that she was not wearing shoes - it's not like she was wearing a ground-length flowing skirt that may have hidden her barefootedness. Would no one else have suggested she put on some shoes?
Thinking along those lines, could she have intended to return to SW only for the reason to pick up another pair of shoes, then been re-diverted after the elevator altercation? Could borrowing a pair of shoes from friends have been the reason they stopped at 10th & College? Although reports have her under the influence to varying degrees, could part of the equation as to why CR was carrying LS for part of the journey be that her feet were hurt - she'd stepped on a nail/rock/piece of glass, or scraped them during a fall to where it was now painful to walk? Carrying the speculation even further, is it possible that once at JR's, she was able to (though no one has commented as such) get bandaged or some treatment such that, after an hour or so, her foot/feet condition improved that allowed her to walk much better (even perhaps with a pair of flip-flops borrowed from JR/friends, explaining why she couldn't walk very well at 2:30 but may have been able to leave JR's place at 4:30?
I will break these into multiple postings for length purposes and to allow discussion if warranted.
1. "THE BASKETBALL GAME" - it is often mentioned that JW was at home watching, and others at SW were watching, a basketball game that night. While it's easy to presume the game was going on during the evening's activities, the only basketball game on Thursday June 2nd was Game 2 of the NBA Finals btw Miami & Dallas. Per media schedules this game began at approx 9:05 and per nba.com had a duration of 2:38. While those interested in the outcome would've had their attention held till the end since the game did hinge on the final possession, the game itself would've been completed by 11:43 Bloomington time. Video accounts of LS first leaving SW occur after midnight, so there would've been no overlap between LS being "out on the town" and JW watching the game.
2. WEATHER - wunderground.com reports that, although high temperatures were in the low 80's during those days, the temperature at 12:30AM on June 3rd was 62 degrees and would later drop to 59 degrees by 3AM. This could explain LS beginning the evening with a light jacket, though others have surmised that she could've been using the never-found jacket for pockets which her other clothing didn't have, or to sneak something in somewhere e.g. carrying a flask into a football game underneath a coat. While sunny and clear during the day, there was almost no moon out that night (just a sliver) meaning it was more dark than oftentimes. Absent streetlights/houselights in certain places, it would've been more difficult than normal for witnesses to ascertain faces or events, or to "watch someone walk to the street corner". Sunrise was at 6:21AM Friday so still 2-3 hrs of darkness after LS' timeline ends, and likely it was still dark when the nearby dumpster trash was hauled away if on schedule that morning.
3. BAREFOOT - I've always been really intrigued by this part of the night's events. Would LS have intentionally left her shoes at Kilroy's for any reason? If not, how could she have mistakenly left them there - once she was walking out on the downtown streets she surely, despite an apparent inebriated state, would've noticed she didn't have any shoes on. Couldn't she (unless kicked out/no re-entry) have returned to the bar to get them 2 minutes after she departed/realized she didn't have the shoes? The temp was in the 50's - it was not a warm night that she'd be frolicking across a grassy meadow - anywhere she went or thought about going would involve pavement and/or gravel with nearby construction-related dust/dirt/debris. And per the earlier SW video her pants were tighter and not long thus it should've been obvious to stick out to anyone who saw her that she was not wearing shoes - it's not like she was wearing a ground-length flowing skirt that may have hidden her barefootedness. Would no one else have suggested she put on some shoes?
Thinking along those lines, could she have intended to return to SW only for the reason to pick up another pair of shoes, then been re-diverted after the elevator altercation? Could borrowing a pair of shoes from friends have been the reason they stopped at 10th & College? Although reports have her under the influence to varying degrees, could part of the equation as to why CR was carrying LS for part of the journey be that her feet were hurt - she'd stepped on a nail/rock/piece of glass, or scraped them during a fall to where it was now painful to walk? Carrying the speculation even further, is it possible that once at JR's, she was able to (though no one has commented as such) get bandaged or some treatment such that, after an hour or so, her foot/feet condition improved that allowed her to walk much better (even perhaps with a pair of flip-flops borrowed from JR/friends, explaining why she couldn't walk very well at 2:30 but may have been able to leave JR's place at 4:30?
Continuing on:
4. EARLY ACCOUNTS -- it's easy to be in our position now 3 yrs later to analyze/scrutinize the early reporting especially of what the POI's accounting of events were, but we need the perspective that - during the first 24-72 hours almost certainly that some (if not all, in event of stranger abduction) of the 10 POI's did not know that she wouldn't return alive. If in fact she was found to be fine before the weekend was over, they did not want to confess any more than was absolutely necessary. By most accounts, the events of the evening between many of the cast's characters involved underage drinking, illegal consumption of drugs and perhaps dealing of illegal drugs, assault (ZO), perhaps prostitution (a woman older than college student-age "visiting a boy" at 3AM at 10th & Coll). On top of the legal-related stuff, it's entirely possible that some knew in the back of their minds they had convinced their parents that they wouldn't be returning home right away in May to work a summer-job... instead studying, taking extra coursework, etc... not partying hard on Thursday nights with classes on Friday. To what degree LS' demise had to do with the legal stuff we don't for sure know yet, but many to most of them surely didn't know at that early date - likely why hedging on certain details. Then of course even at 10-14 days when it became likely she wouldn't return alive and well, many to most of them still didn't know that her body wouldn't be found soon thereafter - which again could confirm/dispute what accounts were given or activities that were admitted. While I'm not giving anyone a free pass for "changing" their stories, I realize in hindsight that it's understandable that they may have felt more at ease releasing certain tidbits or more comfortable umm "remembering" certain other morsels as the case progressed -- which can give the appearance of stories changing. I still have to catch myself/keep telling myself that it's extremely likely that many to most of the characters probably don't know for sure all that happened and where LS' body was placed. For the ones that truly had nothing to do with it, they aren't wanting to be extra forthcoming in admitting other stuff.
5. As alluded to above, the date in question was June 2nd and only summer classes were going on. The end of the traditional school-year was nearly a month earlier with 2011 commencement having been held on May 6th. While I couldn't find anything online specific to IU, summer enrollment nationwide seems to be no more than 40% of fall/spring enrollment, sometimes as low as 20%. In any event, the number of students in dorms or on campus generally, the foot-traffic in the bars or out on the streets, etc would not have been nearly as heavy as would be seen in October or April. Past experience also shows that many to most summer-school students are the locals who often live at home, as opposed to ones from far out-of-state like all of the cast's characters here are. I do find it odd that in no accounts have I read where any of LS' friends or the PsOI's acquaintances/neighbors were home for the summer, or any nearby apartments were vacant for the summer - it almost seems that everyone preferred to remain 600 miles from "home" rather than to spend the summertime with their families or get internships in their hometowns which contrasts to what a lot of other Indiana college students do. I don't think it's ever been reported that any of the characters were even taking a particularly heavy summer courseload - I've seen accounts of certain persons taking 1 maybe 2 classes during this session. It's almost as if they had some sort of business going and they couldn't afford to break for the summer and/or lose clientele between May and Sept when normal classes resumed. It would be interesting if anyone knew if this was normal for them - that all of them remained in Indiana every summer instead of returning to their native Northeast.
6. RANDOM LONGSHOTS - as mentioned in the lead-in, the Indiana high school state track meet that I came into town for on 6/3/11 was the afternoon she was reported missing. That event usually draws 5,000-ish to the IU track from all over the state. Ones from the farther reaches of Indiana arrive the night before thus the 15-20 hotels in Bloomington would've been more occupied than many Thursday nights would be. While the participants themselves would most surely have been sleeping during the LS timeline the night before their big races, it's possible their out-of-towner parents could've been out at the bars or in the area in question. Areas in SW Indiana and NW Indiana are on central time while Bloomington is on eastern time. While cellphones reset to the local timezone, it's possible someone's watch would still read an hour different. (though if perhaps an out-of-town witness reported something per quick or careless observation at 2:30 per their watch on central time, that would be an hour later, not earlier, on eastern) Along those lines, (still I know extreme longshot), is it at all possible given that Bloomington observes daylight savings time that a timestamp on a camera may not have been adjusted in the spring when the clocks are moved ahead, which could account for a one-hour discrepancy in witness accounts vs video?
4. EARLY ACCOUNTS -- it's easy to be in our position now 3 yrs later to analyze/scrutinize the early reporting especially of what the POI's accounting of events were, but we need the perspective that - during the first 24-72 hours almost certainly that some (if not all, in event of stranger abduction) of the 10 POI's did not know that she wouldn't return alive. If in fact she was found to be fine before the weekend was over, they did not want to confess any more than was absolutely necessary. By most accounts, the events of the evening between many of the cast's characters involved underage drinking, illegal consumption of drugs and perhaps dealing of illegal drugs, assault (ZO), perhaps prostitution (a woman older than college student-age "visiting a boy" at 3AM at 10th & Coll). On top of the legal-related stuff, it's entirely possible that some knew in the back of their minds they had convinced their parents that they wouldn't be returning home right away in May to work a summer-job... instead studying, taking extra coursework, etc... not partying hard on Thursday nights with classes on Friday. To what degree LS' demise had to do with the legal stuff we don't for sure know yet, but many to most of them surely didn't know at that early date - likely why hedging on certain details. Then of course even at 10-14 days when it became likely she wouldn't return alive and well, many to most of them still didn't know that her body wouldn't be found soon thereafter - which again could confirm/dispute what accounts were given or activities that were admitted. While I'm not giving anyone a free pass for "changing" their stories, I realize in hindsight that it's understandable that they may have felt more at ease releasing certain tidbits or more comfortable umm "remembering" certain other morsels as the case progressed -- which can give the appearance of stories changing. I still have to catch myself/keep telling myself that it's extremely likely that many to most of the characters probably don't know for sure all that happened and where LS' body was placed. For the ones that truly had nothing to do with it, they aren't wanting to be extra forthcoming in admitting other stuff.
5. As alluded to above, the date in question was June 2nd and only summer classes were going on. The end of the traditional school-year was nearly a month earlier with 2011 commencement having been held on May 6th. While I couldn't find anything online specific to IU, summer enrollment nationwide seems to be no more than 40% of fall/spring enrollment, sometimes as low as 20%. In any event, the number of students in dorms or on campus generally, the foot-traffic in the bars or out on the streets, etc would not have been nearly as heavy as would be seen in October or April. Past experience also shows that many to most summer-school students are the locals who often live at home, as opposed to ones from far out-of-state like all of the cast's characters here are. I do find it odd that in no accounts have I read where any of LS' friends or the PsOI's acquaintances/neighbors were home for the summer, or any nearby apartments were vacant for the summer - it almost seems that everyone preferred to remain 600 miles from "home" rather than to spend the summertime with their families or get internships in their hometowns which contrasts to what a lot of other Indiana college students do. I don't think it's ever been reported that any of the characters were even taking a particularly heavy summer courseload - I've seen accounts of certain persons taking 1 maybe 2 classes during this session. It's almost as if they had some sort of business going and they couldn't afford to break for the summer and/or lose clientele between May and Sept when normal classes resumed. It would be interesting if anyone knew if this was normal for them - that all of them remained in Indiana every summer instead of returning to their native Northeast.
6. RANDOM LONGSHOTS - as mentioned in the lead-in, the Indiana high school state track meet that I came into town for on 6/3/11 was the afternoon she was reported missing. That event usually draws 5,000-ish to the IU track from all over the state. Ones from the farther reaches of Indiana arrive the night before thus the 15-20 hotels in Bloomington would've been more occupied than many Thursday nights would be. While the participants themselves would most surely have been sleeping during the LS timeline the night before their big races, it's possible their out-of-towner parents could've been out at the bars or in the area in question. Areas in SW Indiana and NW Indiana are on central time while Bloomington is on eastern time. While cellphones reset to the local timezone, it's possible someone's watch would still read an hour different. (though if perhaps an out-of-town witness reported something per quick or careless observation at 2:30 per their watch on central time, that would be an hour later, not earlier, on eastern) Along those lines, (still I know extreme longshot), is it at all possible given that Bloomington observes daylight savings time that a timestamp on a camera may not have been adjusted in the spring when the clocks are moved ahead, which could account for a one-hour discrepancy in witness accounts vs video?
Quote snipped for brevity.
Many IU students stay in Bloomington during the summer because they have rented apartments with 12 month leases. If they cannot find anyone to sublet the apartment, they'd have to pay rent whether they lived there or not. So they choose to live there and take classes. The students in dorms or Greek houses are more likely to go home for the summer.
IU has a complicated summer schedule. It is twelve weeks long and can be divided in to two six week sessions, three four week sessions, or a four week followed or preceded by an eight week session. One three credit hour class is enough to take in a four week session. Some students might be at IU for just the first four week session, then go home or get a job for the rest of the summer. Also, the selection of classes in the summer is much more limited than it is the rest of the year. Students take the classes that they need which are available during the summer. Sometimes there's only one class that they need that is offered.
Snipped by me. I'm in a bit of a rush and will try to address more later. I really appreciate the thought and detail you put into your post, particularly about the weather and shoes. I've also thought she might have returned to SW for another pair of shoes. Perhaps she took hers off near the sand volleyball court? I do think it's a little weird to lose one's shoes and certainly suggests an inebriated state. But ... put a few pairs of shoes in one place, and I could see it happening.
I'm not so sure about her borrowing shoes ... I just feel the night was so out of control that shoes ceased to matter after LS and CR left SW.
Re: the weather. That's interesting ... and I've wondered about how cold it got that night before. The midwest in early June can still have those chilly nights. It makes me wonder even more where her jacket ended up. Also, the bit about the moon could be relevant, IMO. I kind of steer clear of the mystery man discussion ... I just don't feel I can add anything of value. But the thought that everything was going on under a dark cloak, so to speak, is interesting.
Thanks for taking the time to detail your thoughts. I'll try to write more later.
I believe it is very helpful to try to fix to memory and re-look at B'Town's pictures of the relevant blocks, especially from 10th to 11th/from College to Morton. I just did that once again. I noted that B'Town posted these pics from 6-10-2011 at 2:41 PM to 6-15-2011 at 1:02 AM. The picture of the corner of 11th & College was posted 6-14-2011 at 10:07 PM. Just west of this corner on the 5N sidewalk adjacent to the blue house is the last place Lauren is reputed, by JR, to have been seen.
We all know this. But I would like to remind everybody once again, that B'Town's picture posted on 6-14 is taken 12 days after Lauren was last seen. B'Town's pictures are great to have for references for sure, but I want to tell everybody one more time that I remember that corner as being quite different from B'Town's posted picture. In his pic the big shade tree in the yard of the blue house has already been trimmed back considerably from the way it was the night of Lauren's disappearance. I know because I was there once over that first weekend and twice early the following week (about 6-6/6-7), once in the late evening. Boys and girls, that corner was very dark and heavily shrubbed and shaded by the big tree the night Lauren disappeared. You would never know that from B'Town's picture.
This community of sleuths is a serious bunch, very creative and dedicated. That is exactly why I want to remind everybody of how different that corner was the night of June 2, 2011. Especially after midnight with only a sliver of moon. If B'Town's picture had been taken 11 days earlier, each of you would have a totally different impression. You would wonder (much more) how anyone could have let her walk home alone, barefoot.
We all know this. But I would like to remind everybody once again, that B'Town's picture posted on 6-14 is taken 12 days after Lauren was last seen. B'Town's pictures are great to have for references for sure, but I want to tell everybody one more time that I remember that corner as being quite different from B'Town's posted picture. In his pic the big shade tree in the yard of the blue house has already been trimmed back considerably from the way it was the night of Lauren's disappearance. I know because I was there once over that first weekend and twice early the following week (about 6-6/6-7), once in the late evening. Boys and girls, that corner was very dark and heavily shrubbed and shaded by the big tree the night Lauren disappeared. You would never know that from B'Town's picture.
This community of sleuths is a serious bunch, very creative and dedicated. That is exactly why I want to remind everybody of how different that corner was the night of June 2, 2011. Especially after midnight with only a sliver of moon. If B'Town's picture had been taken 11 days earlier, each of you would have a totally different impression. You would wonder (much more) how anyone could have let her walk home alone, barefoot.
continued....(last one)
7. CR/MB -- I'm not saying they're innocent but I do find their accounts plausible. I was going to note the generally uphill terrain through the alley toward 5N but now see someone else recently mentioned it. It seems to me very possible that CR, being potentially drunk and/or drugged not to mention being punched in the face, would be totally wiped out exhausted if he was carrying LS for very long uphill and as believed up and down stairs possibly more than once. Guys that age often work out to look good muscularly but heavy partiers often don't have a lot of respiratory endurance. The combination of things in his system and carrying 98 lbs over his shoulder could easily have induced a condition that later had him vomiting, needing to go to bed, or otherwise revising any earlier plans CR had for getting LS alone. Sitting down on the steps may have been more for CR needing a break by putting LS down for awhile more than anything to do with her.
And MB's account of working on a paper all night again sounds plausible even mixed with other activities given today's habits/language. Many of us old-timers would picture "studying all night" as meaning holed up down at the library continuously with a nose in the books or by the stationary library typewriter. However with youth of today and I-devices, laptops, etc. MB might well have started on the paper in his bedroom early in the evening, brought his device down to the living room later to watch parts of the basketball game on tv, took a break to walk outside and/or pop into JR's place a couple times for drinks/socializing. It may have taken him an inefficient 9 hrs to complete an assignment that could've been done in 3 hrs straight, but he would still consider that "working on a paper all night" despite the multiple stoppages which fit into his other accounts.
8. COMMUNICATION, INTENTIONAL or NOT -- when you do as much reading through threads as there are here, you notice good lessons in clear communication and descriptive language and how the absence of can mislead. Vagueness of terms or the lack of a few more distinctive words have caused a lot of us to go down a wrong path and/or create assumptions that aren't really there. For example:
a) MB going "upstairs" / returned "downstairs" - I believe this to mean, given 5N is a townhouse complex where living room/kitchen are generally downstairs and bedrooms up that this means MB changed floors within his own unit. However others on here have went down the path of that meaning MB went from his unit to JR's unit or vice-versa which is a much different proposition
b) returned to SW "apartment" / knocked on ZC's "apartment" - does this mean the apartment complex or lobby of the complex, or the actual unit of the person in question? Again CR/LS going from Kilroy's to LS's own "apartment unit" vs just making it into the apartment lobby or elevator has quite different ramifications, just as CR/LS knocking on ZC's actual "apt unit" door (meaning they got in the complex somehow) vs beating on the main entry "apartment" door of ZC's complex hoping to be buzzed in takes on different meanings.
c) turned over "id" to police as discussed earlier could be a real ID, fake ID, student ID, or some other form which again just another word or phrase of description from a reporter would save a lot of misguided effort
Now while those may be unintentional slipups, typos, or just shoddy reporting, there is also the purposeful misleading - the type that LE and attorneys can at times be accomplished at. Not outright liars (although some individuals fit that definition as well) but a sense of honor enough that what they say is not untrue in a perjury sense but they won't correct you if go the wrong route based on what you infer was said, and even assume/want you to take that wrong route. Again for example the possible phrase "video evidence could not confirm the events the witness claimed to see at (pretend) 6PM" could actually mean any of the following while still technically being truthful:
a) no cameras were pointed at the subject area to confirm or dispute
b) cameras should've been pointed at the subject area but had been vandalized/misdirected or not properly functioning such that they could not confirm or dispute
c) functioning cameras captured similar events as a witness described but were blurry, obstructed by other objects, or events moved in and out of camera range such that exact faces/movements couldn't be completely confirmed
d) similar events as described were captured on video but at 5:57 or 6:02, not 6PM - a variance which could make a big difference in cases of swift movement or precise timelines but might make no difference in cases where events are static and timelines are fluid.
e) events were captured in the subject area or elsewhere that totally contradict what a witness claims
I will say there are some really good sleuthers on here that are very astute at gleaning the wiggle-space in some of these statements. We all should be on the lookout not only for what is specifically said but oftentimes what is not said or what could've been said differently, or more simply, that would've gotten across the same point.
9. 10TH & COLLEGE - I believe vidocq and ixchel are the posters who've hammered away at this scene but I too wonder about the access to this bldg and ZC/friends' place. I'm under the impression there are cameras here much like SW and that you need keycard entry to get inside to the residents' individual apartment unit doors. If correct, they could only have gotten in by......being buzzed in by a resident (which would've been who? since their intended party was either sleeping or not home at all), having their own keycard (not likely unless borrowed/taken from ZC earlier in the evening for a probable later stop-by), or they piggybacked in off a genuine 10th & Coll resident's entry (which would require witness(es) who undoubtedly would've noticed a girl plopped over a guy's shoulder "sneaking in" before the door closed behind them. In any event, shouldn't this have been captured on video? Again as mentioned if they had to exit the alley to go around to the street at the front of the bldg, that required some extra time than perhaps what the timeline allows, and perhaps implies that one of them was more coherent than believed if they had bearings to pull all of this off.
10. OUT-OF-STATE - Lastly I've been very intrigued all along that none of the cast of characters here is actually from Indiana. Per numerous websites IU has 63% in-state enrollment and approximately 900 students out of 42,000 from NY/NJ/MA. My wife and several relatives graduated from IU and yes, they met their share of out-of-state or international students, but all agree it would almost have to be intentional to not have any Indiana residents within your social circle at a large state flagship university after attending 3-4 years as these folks were. Yet no males or females are ever mentioned in what I've read as hailing from the home state. I know there was the supposed Jewish bond, though I think others are reasonable in questioning how truly religious any of them were given their night's activities/apparent lack of adherence to the Jewish spiritual doctrine. It almost seems there was some other weird bond such that several years after being in the Midwest that they would still be exclusively latched onto their northeastern acquaintances yet all would remain in the Midwest and not return to their home-areas as soon as the spring semester ended. As it relates to LS' body if they were not friends to any or many B'town/nearby local-area students, they likely would only have known big places like Lake Monroe, Bradford Woods, and Morgan-Monroe State Forest - not knowing back roads or side streets outside the college/downtown bubble of B'town anymore than knowing how to get to local elementary schools, golf courses, doctors' offices, etc that other locals would easily know of. These northeasterners would certainly have not known the layout of the Bloomington sewer system, the workings of the railroad system, the trash pickup schedules at construction sites, or what cameras were out there in town but not on campus. It almost seems the body has to be near the scene of disappearance and just overlooked to this point, or was driven far out of Bloomington to dispose.
7. CR/MB -- I'm not saying they're innocent but I do find their accounts plausible. I was going to note the generally uphill terrain through the alley toward 5N but now see someone else recently mentioned it. It seems to me very possible that CR, being potentially drunk and/or drugged not to mention being punched in the face, would be totally wiped out exhausted if he was carrying LS for very long uphill and as believed up and down stairs possibly more than once. Guys that age often work out to look good muscularly but heavy partiers often don't have a lot of respiratory endurance. The combination of things in his system and carrying 98 lbs over his shoulder could easily have induced a condition that later had him vomiting, needing to go to bed, or otherwise revising any earlier plans CR had for getting LS alone. Sitting down on the steps may have been more for CR needing a break by putting LS down for awhile more than anything to do with her.
And MB's account of working on a paper all night again sounds plausible even mixed with other activities given today's habits/language. Many of us old-timers would picture "studying all night" as meaning holed up down at the library continuously with a nose in the books or by the stationary library typewriter. However with youth of today and I-devices, laptops, etc. MB might well have started on the paper in his bedroom early in the evening, brought his device down to the living room later to watch parts of the basketball game on tv, took a break to walk outside and/or pop into JR's place a couple times for drinks/socializing. It may have taken him an inefficient 9 hrs to complete an assignment that could've been done in 3 hrs straight, but he would still consider that "working on a paper all night" despite the multiple stoppages which fit into his other accounts.
8. COMMUNICATION, INTENTIONAL or NOT -- when you do as much reading through threads as there are here, you notice good lessons in clear communication and descriptive language and how the absence of can mislead. Vagueness of terms or the lack of a few more distinctive words have caused a lot of us to go down a wrong path and/or create assumptions that aren't really there. For example:
a) MB going "upstairs" / returned "downstairs" - I believe this to mean, given 5N is a townhouse complex where living room/kitchen are generally downstairs and bedrooms up that this means MB changed floors within his own unit. However others on here have went down the path of that meaning MB went from his unit to JR's unit or vice-versa which is a much different proposition
b) returned to SW "apartment" / knocked on ZC's "apartment" - does this mean the apartment complex or lobby of the complex, or the actual unit of the person in question? Again CR/LS going from Kilroy's to LS's own "apartment unit" vs just making it into the apartment lobby or elevator has quite different ramifications, just as CR/LS knocking on ZC's actual "apt unit" door (meaning they got in the complex somehow) vs beating on the main entry "apartment" door of ZC's complex hoping to be buzzed in takes on different meanings.
c) turned over "id" to police as discussed earlier could be a real ID, fake ID, student ID, or some other form which again just another word or phrase of description from a reporter would save a lot of misguided effort
Now while those may be unintentional slipups, typos, or just shoddy reporting, there is also the purposeful misleading - the type that LE and attorneys can at times be accomplished at. Not outright liars (although some individuals fit that definition as well) but a sense of honor enough that what they say is not untrue in a perjury sense but they won't correct you if go the wrong route based on what you infer was said, and even assume/want you to take that wrong route. Again for example the possible phrase "video evidence could not confirm the events the witness claimed to see at (pretend) 6PM" could actually mean any of the following while still technically being truthful:
a) no cameras were pointed at the subject area to confirm or dispute
b) cameras should've been pointed at the subject area but had been vandalized/misdirected or not properly functioning such that they could not confirm or dispute
c) functioning cameras captured similar events as a witness described but were blurry, obstructed by other objects, or events moved in and out of camera range such that exact faces/movements couldn't be completely confirmed
d) similar events as described were captured on video but at 5:57 or 6:02, not 6PM - a variance which could make a big difference in cases of swift movement or precise timelines but might make no difference in cases where events are static and timelines are fluid.
e) events were captured in the subject area or elsewhere that totally contradict what a witness claims
I will say there are some really good sleuthers on here that are very astute at gleaning the wiggle-space in some of these statements. We all should be on the lookout not only for what is specifically said but oftentimes what is not said or what could've been said differently, or more simply, that would've gotten across the same point.
9. 10TH & COLLEGE - I believe vidocq and ixchel are the posters who've hammered away at this scene but I too wonder about the access to this bldg and ZC/friends' place. I'm under the impression there are cameras here much like SW and that you need keycard entry to get inside to the residents' individual apartment unit doors. If correct, they could only have gotten in by......being buzzed in by a resident (which would've been who? since their intended party was either sleeping or not home at all), having their own keycard (not likely unless borrowed/taken from ZC earlier in the evening for a probable later stop-by), or they piggybacked in off a genuine 10th & Coll resident's entry (which would require witness(es) who undoubtedly would've noticed a girl plopped over a guy's shoulder "sneaking in" before the door closed behind them. In any event, shouldn't this have been captured on video? Again as mentioned if they had to exit the alley to go around to the street at the front of the bldg, that required some extra time than perhaps what the timeline allows, and perhaps implies that one of them was more coherent than believed if they had bearings to pull all of this off.
10. OUT-OF-STATE - Lastly I've been very intrigued all along that none of the cast of characters here is actually from Indiana. Per numerous websites IU has 63% in-state enrollment and approximately 900 students out of 42,000 from NY/NJ/MA. My wife and several relatives graduated from IU and yes, they met their share of out-of-state or international students, but all agree it would almost have to be intentional to not have any Indiana residents within your social circle at a large state flagship university after attending 3-4 years as these folks were. Yet no males or females are ever mentioned in what I've read as hailing from the home state. I know there was the supposed Jewish bond, though I think others are reasonable in questioning how truly religious any of them were given their night's activities/apparent lack of adherence to the Jewish spiritual doctrine. It almost seems there was some other weird bond such that several years after being in the Midwest that they would still be exclusively latched onto their northeastern acquaintances yet all would remain in the Midwest and not return to their home-areas as soon as the spring semester ended. As it relates to LS' body if they were not friends to any or many B'town/nearby local-area students, they likely would only have known big places like Lake Monroe, Bradford Woods, and Morgan-Monroe State Forest - not knowing back roads or side streets outside the college/downtown bubble of B'town anymore than knowing how to get to local elementary schools, golf courses, doctors' offices, etc that other locals would easily know of. These northeasterners would certainly have not known the layout of the Bloomington sewer system, the workings of the railroad system, the trash pickup schedules at construction sites, or what cameras were out there in town but not on campus. It almost seems the body has to be near the scene of disappearance and just overlooked to this point, or was driven far out of Bloomington to dispose.
If you listen to the press conference where LE makes these statements (http://www.idsnews.com/news/multimedia/media.aspx?id=39645&type=m), yes, they say that there is video evidence of Lauren with the man they have identified [later identified as CR] approximately one hour earlier than the 3:38 time reported by Gatto.
That would make the witness encounter fit into the timeline outlined by LE, the PIs and the POI, as Corey was carrying Lauren back to 5 N.
They do not specify the location of the video. People here speculated that the witness encounter was near the clock because according to Gatto, she was specific about the time. However, that was not actually reported by anyone.
I don't know where she was at 3:38, but I see no reason to doubt the statements from LE, which specifically say she was not on video at 10th and college at that time, but about an hour earlier. Based on the timeline that has been put together by LE, the private investigators and the statements from the witnesses and POI, my best guess is that she did in fact make it back to 5 N around 3 am.
IIRC, the phone call from MB to JR was around 3:30, and this time period after Lauren and CR's arrival back at 5 N, is when MB and JR's stories seem to fall apart. I think there must be a reason for this conflicting information and their reluctance to be forthcoming about what exactly happened when Lauren was at 5 N. I would guess, based on what we know, that Lauren was in bad shape at that time, and that there was some kind of crisis over what to do. But I have no idea what the real story is or what decisions were made at that point, only that Lauren didn't make it home and the last people with her have told conflicting stories and have refused to take LE polygraphs.
So, unanswered questions. I guess that's why we are all still here!
VeryVeritas
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One thing the discounting of the 3:38 time does is take away the proof that Lauren was alive at 3:38. As you stated, we don't know where she was, and everything happening the hour before that was rather dire, culminating in unconsciousness at around 2:50 on the last known camera evidence of Lauren's whereabouts. It could very well be that by the time MB made that 3:30 call, that she was already deceased. The only thing we have that places her as being "alive" is MB and JR's statements. And since they have changed their stories, contradicted one another, and added to their stories, it's very possible the part about her being alive at 3:00 to 4:30 wasn't really true. MB's story boiled down to making it seem like CR was in terrible shape, and that LS was looking to party, which totally contradicted VIDEO evidence and JR's assessment of LS's condition which was far far worse than CR's. That is no small thing, that is a BIG THING. I agree their behavior and phone calls is a lot more consistent with some panic situation, rather than LS being in 2 parallel worlds (MB's Let's Party world vs. JR's lets see if she can tell the difference between a phone and an ipod and if she can stagger to the door) JR's account was closer to the known facts, then he turns a 180 and supposedly lets her walk out the door.
We don't know where she was at 3:38, yet we do know they aren't being truthful. And we don't have any other witness that saw her after 3:38, nor was she on any known cam after 2:50 fall face down on gravel alley cam. So, to me it's very possible she was deceased before 3:38. There is no credible proof that LS was alive after that 2:50 fall.
Ixchel13
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BBM. Nor any proof that she was not alive, nor any evidence pointing to SA. These are all theories. We need to agree to disagree, and allow people to present their theories with proper links and disclaimers.
After 2:51, everything is theory. all POIs are still in the mix. Whatever happened to Lauren is not on camera, unless as in the Mickey Shunick case,LE does have footage of an abduction but for some necessary reason, isn't releasing it. Seriously doubt that. IMO, something "not being on camera" is not a valid reason for debunking someone's theories.
ZO and AB are from Indianapolis. Some of the folks from the NE and Michigan may have stayed close due to involvement in Greek life, Hillel, etc. Also, it is not unusual for IU students to explore the surrounding region by car or bicycle, and thus learn of back roads, side streets, etc.
I also still wonder if her remains could still be close by, perhaps in a never-used storm cellar etc.
I do not know how to post what VeryVeritas said in #288 above so I will use quotes: "We don't know where she (LS) was at 3:38, yet we do know they (MB & JR) aren't being truthful. And we don't have any other witness that saw her after 3:38....."
It might not be that JR & MB are lying. It might be that they have changed their statements to add details that had not originally come to mind. Or, it might be that their original statements were slightly in error and details needed to later be corrected.
If Lauren did pass away at MB's apartment, I have difficulty believing MB would not call 911. The only reason I can think of would be to protect CR. But otherwise, why would MB try to hide the fact that LS just died. MB had nothing to do with her earlier alcohol and/or possible drug/cocktail use. Did he?
As for there being a conspiracy between MB & JR (and possibly CR) I cannot envision this, because I don't see MB as having anywhere near the possible culpability that JR might have had by 4 AM. I can imagine a conspiracy much easier between JR and DB. Just my opinion of course, but I cannot imagine how MB could have kept silent all this time and not spilled the beans, or originally, why he would have decided to conspire with JR.
Then finally, how do any of us really know what any POI statement actually said? Have any of us seen any POI statement presented to LE? If we haven't, then aren't we making assumptions that what might have been rumored or hastily said to a reporter or PI was the Truth. The contradiction VeryVeritas is decrying in post #288 may just be frustration caused by shoddy reporting. I like the excellent points presented by EOS in post #285 above, especially in #8. Communication, Intentional or Not.
It might not be that JR & MB are lying. It might be that they have changed their statements to add details that had not originally come to mind. Or, it might be that their original statements were slightly in error and details needed to later be corrected.
If Lauren did pass away at MB's apartment, I have difficulty believing MB would not call 911. The only reason I can think of would be to protect CR. But otherwise, why would MB try to hide the fact that LS just died. MB had nothing to do with her earlier alcohol and/or possible drug/cocktail use. Did he?
As for there being a conspiracy between MB & JR (and possibly CR) I cannot envision this, because I don't see MB as having anywhere near the possible culpability that JR might have had by 4 AM. I can imagine a conspiracy much easier between JR and DB. Just my opinion of course, but I cannot imagine how MB could have kept silent all this time and not spilled the beans, or originally, why he would have decided to conspire with JR.
Then finally, how do any of us really know what any POI statement actually said? Have any of us seen any POI statement presented to LE? If we haven't, then aren't we making assumptions that what might have been rumored or hastily said to a reporter or PI was the Truth. The contradiction VeryVeritas is decrying in post #288 may just be frustration caused by shoddy reporting. I like the excellent points presented by EOS in post #285 above, especially in #8. Communication, Intentional or Not.
@I Jules - to quote a post, just click the 'quote' button at the bottom of the post. If you only want to quote some of the text, you can just delete what is not relevant and indicate that you have 'snipped' (or bolded) a portion of the quote.
<respectfully snipped for space>
Obviously we can only evaluate the information that we have. We are likely never going to hear directly from the POI themselves or know exactly what they told LE, unless there is a trial one day. But we do have statements from their own lawyers, who were hired to represent them, from the Private Investigators who interviewed them, and from witnesses who know them and spoke to them directly, quoting them to reporters. I agree -- It's definitely possible some of the inconsistencies come from bad reporting, misquotes, or misunderstandings. However, we are not just talking about little details. The POI at 5 N have told several inconsistent and totally contradictory versions of what happened in the hours Lauren was last seen. And, they have never given a coherent or agreed upon timeline. These are not small details in a missing person case. Especially MB -- just about every piece of information that was made in his early statements, via his lawyer, has turned out to be false (based on evidence that has come up since then) or contradicted by his own later statements.
At any point, any of the POI could have issued statements correcting information that wasn't correct, or they could have done what most people would do when a friend goes missing - just give a clear and consistent account of when and where she was last seen from the outset, to help find her. Someone brought up the Mickey Shunick case -- look at how the friends (who were also initially under suspicion) reacted in that case: They gave a detailed timeline of events immediately, responding to all questions, even hard ones from the media, and taking polygraphs.
I would love to hear from from the POI and know if there is some explanation for the multiple and contradictory accounts we have heard. But they can't or won't give a clear or consistent story. If they had, they would presumably have been cleared by LE long ago, or at least would have cleared up the questions from the Private investigators and the Spierers, who have made it clear that they have not done so.
http://www.lohud.com/article/20120603/news02/306030045
There is simply no way to know this. You're simply giving weight to things that we have no way of knowing how accurate they may or may not be.
And no matter how many times you say it, a lawyer speaking off the cuff, trying to spin PR for his client, is in no way the same as the client speaking for himself or the lawyer reading a prepared and signed statement. It's probative value is zero. Maybe if he had stated MB was not even in Bloomington that night it would be curious. I don't even see enough of a conflict in what he said to even get curious about it considering the circumstances.
Until we hear directly from the PsOI, see the actual statements, hear them questioned, or even hear directly from the alleged witnesses and 'hearsay' participants, then we really don't have any idea where their credibility lands.
I know you're comfortable declaring their stories have been ever changing. But it's just not a fact that is the case. It's simply another variable we cannot confirm because the spigot of information simply isn't turned on for us. And we can't state it as fact.
It's a fact the atty told something differently than what is stated in the civil suit. It's not a known fact that either is actually accurate or different than what MB himself might've told LE all along. Meanwhile, it's really of no consequence what the atty said in the circumstances and context of his quote in the first place. What matters is what MB said in the police report and what others that LE interviewed told them to contradict or support that. And of that, we have no information at all.
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