IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33

Discussion in 'Lauren Spierer' started by bessie, Mar 10, 2012.

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  1. Ixchel13

    Ixchel13 Active Member

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    yes I agree they are. But we're talking about feeling sorry for them. As far as it could be anyone's children, I can see that. and it seems like the Spierers understood that and just wanted Lauren. As time went on, they expressed their frustration and tried to explain how they felt, and it came out very clear, the agony and hurt.

    I've read about hardened street junkies who have called the police when their friend ods. It's been in our paper.

    I've also read about people driving ods to a hospital parking lot, or even any nearby parking lot, so that they would be found. This is more common. since they didn't cause the person's death,
    they don't want to get into trouble, because they could be investigated for murder if the person disappears after they were the last person with them. They want the body to be found!

    If they hid their friends body so well she hasn't been found yet, they should be smart enough
    to figure out an anonymous tip line.
     
  2. Ros

    Ros Member

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    I think we discussed these ideas on this board before. The general conclusion is that there must be something about the condition of her body (DNA, injuries that could still be seen on autopsy, etc.) that could be incriminating to the person(s) responsible for her disappearance. I am not an expert, but I would not think that it would still be possible to determine that she died due to an overdose. It is difficult to measure the presence of toxic substances in bone and nearly impossible to determine timing. See http://www.forensicsciencesimplified.org/tox/how.html If she frequently used drugs (and according to JW's parents, that was the case), then even if drugs were found in her bones, one could not easily determine that the drugs caused her death.
     
  3. AbbeyR

    AbbeyR Active Member

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    I wonder how many people actually end up charged with anything in these cases? And what percentage of those people are actually convicted and have any consequences? It does happen, but my guess is that in practice, it doesn't happen very often in a situation like the one you describe.

    If we were actually talking about a case in which the POI had attempted to help Lauren and gotten in serious trouble for it, I might understand having some sympathy for them as well. But to feel sorry for them in the case that they didn't call for help and hid her? That's terrible. I feel sorry for Lauren. She deserved to have someone look out for her, call for help, or make sure she got to a safe place. I feel sorry for Lauren's friends and family, who deserve to have answers and to say goodbye.
     
  4. AbbeyR

    AbbeyR Active Member

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    They were deleted. I have a copy, if you want to read the posts, but I don't believe it was JR.
     
  5. AbbeyR

    AbbeyR Active Member

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    I don't believe the bar manager ever actually said anything about the clock. That was suggested by someone here, based on her presumed location. According to the private investigators, she was coming from "visiting a boy" not from work. They outline the timeline in the Lohud video and article, which seems in line with LE's statement that it was an hour earlier than reported by Gatto.
     
  6. Chuz Life

    Chuz Life Voluntary Investigator

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    According to what I am finding on the Gatto archives, the Bar Manager was "adamant" about the time (3:38 am) and the location (10th & College.) It does make sense that because the clock is there at that location - that she would have been so sure about BOTH the time and the location.
     
  7. akh

    akh Member

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    And if she was looking at a clock, and if that clock hadn't been adjusted for DST, then it would've been 4:38AM. Of course.... if if if....
    But since LE wants to discredit the timing as reported then all bets are off.
     
  8. AbbeyR

    AbbeyR Active Member

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    It does make sense about the clock, but I don't see any reason not to believe LE, since they said they have video evidence.

    One of the problems with Gatto is that he only talked to the witness once early on, and then said she wouldn't speak to him again. If she was mistaken about where she was coming from or the time, it seems this would be pretty easy to figure out. She could have double checked with her work records, or with the person she was visiting. Gatto wouldn't know this. The private investigators who interviewed her later would, and this would be easily confirmed by the investigators and LE who had video evidence to verify the time.

    Another possibility is that the discrepancies came from Gatto. Gatto made a lot of mistakes - possibly because he was writing very early on, and perhaps because he is neither an investigator nor an investigative journalist. He was also writing a blog, so had no requirement to follow any practices of verification or any other ethical guidelines. For example, he offered anonymity to anyone who would talk to him and did not fact check or look for corresponding sources - and we was publicly accused by Lauren's friends of writing things that were not accurate. The LoHud journalists would have a higher standard of reporting. I believe it's possible the witness got some things wrong and changed her story, but it's also possible that Gatto was sloppy, trying to support his own theory (of which he clearly had), or who knows, he may have even agreed to alter certain components of the bar manager's story (For example, perhaps she didn't want people to know she was visiting a boy that night and didn't think that detail mattered in the grand scheme of things). I also don't put much weight onto Gatto's claim that the bar manager was adamant about the time. He also stressed that the witness at the bar who said Lauren was alone was totally positive that Lauren was not with Corey, and she was. He also said another anonymous source was positive that Corey had run out of the building before Lauren, and video evidence showed this wasn't true. This leads me to think that either the witnesses or Gatto himself felt the need to stress certainty, though witnesses often make mistakes.

    We've talked about this a lot and I'm sure you guys are sick of me saying the same thing over and over again. Me too :) Who knows, maybe the original report from Gatto has something more to it. But in order to believe that, you have to assume that there is not video evidence of the witness that could show what time it was, even though the location is filled with video cameras and Lauren and Corey were in the same area caught on video, and/or that there is some kind of conspiracy that the private investigators, LE and the media are in on.. I just don't find either to be likely.
     
  9. AbbeyR

    AbbeyR Active Member

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    Or her location. The person(s) responsible for hiding her could be worried that they could be tied to that place or that they (or their vehicle) were spotted in the area.
     
  10. Chuz Life

    Chuz Life Voluntary Investigator

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    It would very strange is a Bar Manager who knew (or should have known) what time she just got off work would give such an account and get the time THAT wrong. I do suppose it's possible. However, I can't imagine getting off work at 4:00 am DST for example and then claiming to witness something that far from work at a time that was before you just got off work.

    As a Bar Manager, she knew what time she got off work and (seems to me) she would have caught that the clock didn't account for DST. Seeing that she claimed she was completely sober and all.

    This is why I said earlier that I would like to know what time the Bar Manager actually got off work, how far away that was, etc.
     
  11. Chuz Life

    Chuz Life Voluntary Investigator

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    LE didn't claim that they have video evidence that conflicts with the Bar Manager's account though. They (LE) only claims that they don't have the video to support her recollection. This gets back to the questions of "what time did she actually get of work, what stops did she make, etc." It is possible that she witnessed something that was missed by the cameras and it's also possible that she just has the time wrong. MORE investigation is warranted.


    Do you have a link to anything that answers the questions of what time she was actually there at that corner? What time she got off work, etc? Was she caught on tape herself?

    Many points taken. Thank you.


    My only interest in the Bar Manager's account is to pinpoint the location and time on my map to add to the bigger picture. I'm sorry if I have re-opened any old angles that have already been put to rest and I'm even more sorry if that leads to any confusion. I have indicated the known locations of the cameras on my map and it seems there was NOT a camera pointed at the steps of the Apartments at the corner of 10th and College. Is Btown still here? Maybe he would know for certain if one was located there.
     
  12. AbbeyR

    AbbeyR Active Member

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    Well, when asked about the sighting at 3:38, LE said there was no video evidence of this sighting at that time. However, they also said this was about an hour later than she does appear on video with a man:

    (snipping from an earlier post that quoted the press release)

    My understanding then, is that this would put the Lauren and the 'man known to LE' on video in that area at somewhere around 2:38.

    According to the LoHud timeline, the encounter with the witness happens somewhere between 2:42 am and 3 am, so this seems to fit both with the revised timeline from LE and this statement. They interviewed the same witness, describe the same encounter described by the witness in Gatto's account (Lauren falling and hitting her head, and being carried over the man's shoulder), and identified the man as Corey Rossman. http://archive.lohud.com/flash/spierer/ (See timeline)

    We don't know if the bar manager's encounter with Corey was caught on video or told to the investigators. The LoHud piece seems to (almost deliberately?) edit this out of the narrative. However, since both Lauren and Corey were captured on video multiple times on their walk, and the buildings at 10th and college have video surveillance, I think that it is pretty likely that even if the encounter itself wasn't captured, the witness would have been seen on video coming or going as well, which would have allowed them to verify the timeline.

    Oh no, don't be sorry! Nothing has been put to rest, and as you said, these little snippets all call for MORE investigation. Your questions about the timeline are important - as we have seen with the early reporting in this case, there was (and is) conflicting information and gaps. I was just apologizing because I have posted the same thing about Gatto's 'mystery man' a gazillion times - but not everyone agrees and that's fine! It's an important part of the story and if nothing else, it gives us something to talk about. You never know when some new piece of information or rethinking something old could lead somewhere :)
     
  13. Mahouston69

    Mahouston69 Digital Imaging Specialist

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    This sparks a question... Did she purposely give a wrong time for "seeing her" and mystery man? If yes, why? Did she actually see Lauren or at that time or is it part of "the story" and did she play a part or is it an attempt to alibi for the "boy she was seeing"?
     
  14. CoolJ

    CoolJ Well-Known Member

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    I would think that if the bar manager/bartender witness distinctly remembered a time as precise as 3:38am that she would likely be basing it off of her cell phone activity. I doubt she looked up at the clock to see the precise time at that moment she saw LS and MM/CR unless that was her stated explanation.
     
  15. Kadence

    Kadence Verified insider - Colin Gillis case

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    Hmm, this is indeed an interesting angle as I can't believe, in these days of cell phones, that someone could "get a time wrong" as to when they observed something so someone isn't telling the truth - who is it, her or LE?

    Have some some things going on in my life - missed y'all!
     
  16. Mahouston69

    Mahouston69 Digital Imaging Specialist

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    And if cell phone activity was used..it will update or show the correct time automatically according to time zones. Again, why lie unless it was to divert attention or show Lauren in a certain location at a precise time. I'd love to know if all video available was used to investigate her eye witness statement between 2:38 and 4:38. Remind me if LE disagreed with her statement on just time, identity of who she saw or both? Did they discount her statements entirely?
     
  17. akh

    akh Member

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    I believe either rumors, or possibly later reports, said the bar manager didn't directly get off work and then allegedly witness LS. The bar manager visited someone in between. So losing track of time is a little more possible in that scenario.
     
  18. akh

    akh Member

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    Here's a question I bet nobody can answer:
    Did the bar manager get shown the video LE has (assuming they really have any of the location where the bar manager was) to confirm it shows what/who she says she saw?

    This would certainly dispel or add credence to the speculation that there is a video that confirms the bar manager's account of seeing LS, but that she was wrong about the time and the person she was with was CR.
     
  19. Ixchel13

    Ixchel13 Active Member

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    all valid questions that I wonder about, too. And I think Chuz asked if she might have been caught on tape. It is said that she came forward a few days later after someone told her Lauren was missing. IMO, this person witnessed the cause of death and saw
    at least one of the persons who hid Lauren. It makes sense that Lauren may have succeeded in getting someone to come out of 10th and C as she was seen on tape trying to get in, or at least seen trying to buzz someone. <modsnip> And it makes sense that Lauren smacked her head, as she was already seen falling down on tape.
    It doesn't make sense that she smacked her head on the way up to 10th and C. We have to remember that this is not on video. Her haphazard route up the alley with CR, and her falling face forward w/o hand support is on tape, yet the PIs describe her at this time as seeming "very much alive and well". Bessie has said that this means
    she was probably moving, waving arms and legs, etc.
    But the witness says she saw Lauren smack her head, and become irresponsive. This sounds like unconcious. She describes her as being picked up and slung over a shoulder. This does not sound like the "piggy back" style that the PIs describe seeing
    her being carried by CR.
    I agree that this witness may be in on the 5N story and could be fudging on both the time and the description of MM. The most important part of what she saw is Lauren hitting her head very hard. Also, she may be fudging about how that happened.
    But she did see something important, and LE is hedging about it, could be they have heard from other people conflicting stories about who was involved during this
    occurence, and what time it was, and it has nothing to do with the first time Lauren was trying to get in 10th and C with CR. JMO MOO

    p.s. and also, MaH, you could be spot on about alibiing the "boy". Whether this guy lived at 10th and C or not, her alibi places him in an apt for a certain time period,
    and maybe even others that were "there" too.
    with her.
     
  20. AbbeyR

    AbbeyR Active Member

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    This is Gatto's version:




    This is what the PI's report



    The witness describes Lauren as being slung over the man's shoulders. In the video, the PIs demonstrate this - this is the one part of the account that seems entirely consistent to me.
     
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