In the trunk 2.6 days Decomp Info #1

[Tulessa]

Everything I have read leads me to believe that Caylee's body was in Casey's trunk longer than 2.6 days. Can anyone help me here? And Mods I am new to the board so if this is a duplicate thread, please merge.

Grave Wax
Bodies of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of years old have occasionally been discovered preserved in peat bogs or in ice. The skin appears like tanned leather as though the bodies have been mummified.

This is a result of the formation of 'grave wax', 'mortuary fat' or adipocere. It's a greyish-white or yellow waxy substance that forms when the fatty parts of the body decay in the presence of water. The changes to the fats can occur quite quickly in the right conditions and inhibit the growth of bacteria, protecting the body from decomposition. It begins to form about a month after death and can persist for centuries. An exposed body is unlikely to form grave wax.

Also.........

"An exposed, infested body or a body in a warm environment is unlikely to form deposits of adipocere (Grave wax)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adipocere

Thank you J for merging.

 

[Tulessa]

Interesting read from the Tennessee Body Farm........

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...f-Bill-Bass-studies-corpses-on-Body-Farm.html

 

[Jolynna]

Originally Posted by Tulessa
Everything I have read leads me to believe that Caylee's body was in Casey's trunk longer than 2.6 days. Can anyone help me here? And Mods I am new to the board so if this is a duplicate thread, please merge.

Snipped...

Also.........

"An exposed, infested body or a body in a warm environment is unlikely to form deposits of adipocere (Grave wax)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adipocere

BBM

It isn't the warm environment that prevents the formation of adipocere in the above situation. It is the lack of oxygen and the bugs.

Putrefactive organisms, of which Clostridium welchii is most
active, are important, and adipocere formation is facilitated by post-mortem invasion of the tissues by commensal bacteria.A warm, moist, anaerobic environment favours adipocere formation

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:iVK2LmuGbREJ:www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/Lecture%2520Notes%2520in%2520Forensic%2520Medicine%2520Derrick%2520Pounder%252048pages.pdf+warm+moist+airtight+environment+corpse&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Clostridium: A group of anaerobic bacteria (bacteria that thrive in the absence of oxygen). There are 100+ species of Clostridium. They include, for examples, Clostridium difficile, Clostridium perfringens (also called Clostridium welchii), and Clostridium botulinum. http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=6539

This is the key to adipocere formation; the bacteria that convert the body's fat to adipocere are anaerobic. These bacteria digest body fat, excreting adipocere and ammonial gases. They do not work well when exposed to air, which is why adipocere rarely forms on body parts exposed to air. Another important factor is the limiting of scavengers and insect larvae. http://www.angelfire.com/wa/zzaran/Adipocere.html

An exception is provided by the formation of adipocere under air-tight conditions. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8908987

​

As far as Caylee's body being the trunk longer than 2.6 days, adipocere may form within days or months (The Cadaver Dog Handbook page 123 http://books.google.com/books?id=WT... individuals more likely to adipocere&f=false)


Also, keep in mind the 3 plastic bags and the hot humid climate. Those would speed up the onset of putrefaction. Children decay faster than adults. Toddlers also have more fat per pound of body weight. (That children are composed of more fat & decompose faster is on page 123 of the above link.) Factor in an airtight trunk for an idyllic environment for adipocere formation.

A high environmental humidity will enhance putrefaction.
Putrefaction is optimal at temperatures ranging between 70-100oF (21-38oC) and is retarded when the temperature falls below 50oF (10oC) or when it exceeds 100oF.

It tends to be more rapid in children than in adults.

Whereas warm temperatures enhance putrefaction, intense heat produces "heat fixation" of tissues and inactivates autolytic enzymes with a resultant delay in the onset and course of decomposition.Heavy clothing and other coverings, by retaining body heat,will speed up putrefaction. Rapid putrefactive changes may been seen in corpses left in a room which is well heated, or in a bed with an electric blanket. Injuries to the body surface promote putrefaction by providing portals of entry for bacteria and the associated blood provides an excellent medium for bacterial growth.

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf
​

 

[Jolynna]

The substance found was consistent with early "grave wax".

This implies the conversion of oleic acid could have occured during the month the car was sitting in the summer heat.
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/jazlynsmum1/papertowelanalyis.png
​

Here is an explanation of the gas chromatography-mass spectrometry method of analyzing grave soil for adipocere: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/106570204/abstracthttp://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/106570204/abstract

 

[TakeNote]

thanks JBean

 

[Jolynna]

BBM

It isn't the warm environment that prevents the formation of adipocere in the above situation. It is the lack of oxygen and the bugs.

Putrefactive organisms, of which Clostridium welchii is most
active, are important, and adipocere formation is facilitated by post-mortem invasion of the tissues by commensal bacteria.A warm, moist, anaerobic environment favours adipocere formation

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:iVK2LmuGbREJ:www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/Lecture%2520Notes%2520in%2520Forensic%2520Medicine%2520Derrick%2520Pounder%252048pages.pdf+warm+moist+airtight+environment+corpse&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Clostridium: A group of anaerobic bacteria (bacteria that thrive in the absence of oxygen). There are 100+ species of Clostridium. They include, for examples, Clostridium difficile, Clostridium perfringens (also called Clostridium welchii), and Clostridium botulinum. http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=6539

This is the key to adipocere formation; the bacteria that convert the body's fat to adipocere are anaerobic. These bacteria digest body fat, excreting adipocere and ammonial gases. They do not work well when exposed to air, which is why adipocere rarely forms on body parts exposed to air. Another important factor is the limiting of scavengers and insect larvae. http://www.angelfire.com/wa/zzaran/Adipocere.html

An exception is provided by the formation of adipocere under air-tight conditions. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8908987

​

As far as Caylee's body being the trunk longer than 2.6 days, adipocere may form within days or months (The Cadaver Dog Handbook page 123 http://books.google.com/books?id=WT... individuals more likely to adipocere&f=false)


Also, keep in mind the 3 plastic bags and the hot humid climate. Those would speed up the onset of putrefaction. Children decay faster than adults. Toddlers also have more fat per pound of body weight. (That children are composed of more fat & decompose faster is on page 123 of the above link.) Factor in an airtight trunk for an idyllic environment for adipocere formation.

A high environmental humidity will enhance putrefaction.
Putrefaction is optimal at temperatures ranging between 70-100oF (21-38oC) and is retarded when the temperature falls below 50oF (10oC) or when it exceeds 100oF.

It tends to be more rapid in children than in adults.

Whereas warm temperatures enhance putrefaction, intense heat produces "heat fixation" of tissues and inactivates autolytic enzymes with a resultant delay in the onset and course of decomposition.Heavy clothing and other coverings, by retaining body heat,will speed up putrefaction. Rapid putrefactive changes may been seen in corpses left in a room which is well heated, or in a bed with an electric blanket. Injuries to the body surface promote putrefaction by providing portals of entry for bacteria and the associated blood provides an excellent medium for bacterial growth.

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf
​

I am going to quote myself because my sentence in red was miswritten, wrong and needs correcting. The bacteria necessary to convert bodly fat into adipocere are anaerobic. They don't do well when exposed to air. Oxygen and bugs PREVENT the formation of adipocere NOT LACK of oxygen. Adipocere bacteria thrive without air. That is why adipocere is often found on drowning victims.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

She has to have dumped her on the 18th judging by the ping maps, so assume that the speed of decomp was sped up by the heat / bags etc.

 

[Harmony 2]

The "Dead folk and decomp" thread is closed so I am posting this here for reference purposes...

Meanwhile, the techniques for retracing the evolution of a murder are getting ever more refined. Take soil samples. As bodies decompose, they leak five fatty acids into the ground beneath them. Each day after death, the various profiles of these acids will vary. Analysis of them can reveal the time of death, as well as pinpoint exactly how long any given body has been lying in a particular place. The soil can also reveal the presence of a corpse, even if the body itself has been removed or destroyed. The ''stain'' left by a body's volatile acids, which also suppresses plant life around it, can last for up to two years, leaving a kind of phantom fingerprint in the earth. Thus, soil, like maggots, becomes an ''information bomb,'' and the dead can be reconstructed (if not resurrected) long after they have disappeared physically.

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/03/magazine/crime-scene-forensics-dead-men-talking.html?pagewanted=7

 

[watcher9]

The "Dead folk and decomp" thread is closed so I am posting this here for reference purposes...



http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/03/magazine/crime-scene-forensics-dead-men-talking.html?pagewanted=7

Harmony2,
Thank you for posting this.
This article called Crime-Scene Forensics; Dead Men Talking is 9 pages long and is an excellent read on the body farm and some of the cases they have helped solve.
It will be fascinating to listen to the experts when/if this case comes to trial.

 

[JBean]

bump for reference

 

[websurfer]

i always thought she threw some trash in the dumpster but by the time the car was towed?
Too late to check the dumpster...:twocents:

 

[wenwe4]

Folks - check out posts #251 and forward .....phenomenal work done on this thread! As we are now looking back toward TOD and dates of disposal . . . this will become quite relevant info in the upcoming days in the trial.

 

[Quiche]

The "Dead folk and decomp" thread is closed so I am posting this here for reference purposes...



http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/03/magazine/crime-scene-forensics-dead-men-talking.html?pagewanted=7

From your article quote, this stands out as a possible reason the lawn died in the Anthony's back yard.

Quote: The ''stain'' left by a body's volatile acids, which also suppresses plant life around it, can last for up to two years, leaving a kind of phantom fingerprint in the earth.

 

[logicalgirl]

If I remember correctly, LE was of the opinion that Caylee was in the trunk from the 16th to around the 23rd or 24th. She drove around with her not knowing what to do with her body for a week.

So macabre, so evil.

I think they drew those conclusions from the bug/larvae evidence in the car.

How did she get away with this? I'll never understand.

No, I believe because of the bug activity, the testimony was that it was 2.5 to 3 days maximum in the trunk. The decomp process in Florida would have been much faster because of the outside temperature heat.

 

[logicalgirl]

Sorry if this has been mentioned, but I have always believed that Caylee was placed in the trunk the afternoon of 6/16 and remained there until 6/18 at which time FCA returned home, backed into the driveway, took Caylee out of the trunk and was planning on burying her in the back yard, so she laid her body down by the pool, then went to borrow the shovel. After she figured out that burying her was just too much work, back into the trunk she went, therefore the cadaver dogs picked up on her scent by the pool. I have to wonder after her failed attempt at burying her in the back yard, if she was planning on leaving her in the trunk until the smell forced her to dump her in the woods.

This is something that I have wondered about also because why else did FCA borrow the shovel.
But, and forgive me, the testimony was that by day 3, there was enough decomp fluid that some stained the car trunk - so even after two days, in the Florida heat, excelerated by the bagging, moving Caylee's body from the trunk to the backyard by the pool and then to the playhouse would have been - well - difficult.....

The testimony was that the experts said the little body was in the car 2.5 to 3 days, which was long enough to have the smell of decomp in the trunk...forever. So.....:waitasec:

 

[Spice]

No, I believe because of the bug activity, the testimony was that it was 2.5 to 3 days maximum in the trunk. The decomp process in Florida would have been much faster because of the outside temperature heat.

I remember reading for sure that LE quoted 5 to 7 days due to the stages of the larvae and flies. I'll look for it, but I remember that specifically because it shocked me that she could drive around with her for that long.

 

[Desdemona]

No, I believe because of the bug activity, the testimony was that it was 2.5 to 3 days maximum in the trunk. The decomp process in Florida would have been much faster because of the outside temperature heat.

The bug expert (entomologist N. Haskell) testified Caylee's body was moved twice, and remained in the trunk for up to five (5) days.

Haskell estimated the body remained in the car trunk for up to five days, long enough for biochemical changes that attract the gnats, before being moved directly to the woods, likely in June or early July 2008.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/11/us-crime-anthony-idUSTRE75956Z20110611
​

The 2.6 days post-mortem decomp estimate (PMI) was based on the air testing done by Dr. Vass.

Vass's report: http://bit.ly/XwgBfo

IMO, not necessarily that Caylee's body spent 2.6 days in the trunk, but that the chemicals in the air sampled from the trunk matched the levels of typical decomp at 2.6 days post-mortem.

HTH

 

[ZsaZsa]

The bug expert (entomologist N. Haskell) testified Caylee's body was moved twice, and remained in the trunk for up to five (5) days.

Haskell estimated the body remained in the car trunk for up to five days, long enough for biochemical changes that attract the gnats, before being moved directly to the woods, likely in June or early July 2008.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/11/us-crime-anthony-idUSTRE75956Z20110611
​

The 2.6 days post-mortem decomp estimate (PMI) was based on the air testing done by Dr. Vass.

Vass's report: http://bit.ly/XwgBfo

IMO, not necessarily that Caylee's body spent 2.6 days in the trunk, but that the chemicals in the air sampled from the trunk matched the levels of typical decomp at 2.6 days post-mortem.

HTH

Here is his testimony- see post #17 and 18. Dr Haskell says 3-5 days.
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139823"]Dr Neal Haskell testimony (Entomologist) - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[Harmony 2]

The bug expert (entomologist N. Haskell) testified Caylee's body was moved twice, and remained in the trunk for up to five (5) days.

Haskell estimated the body remained in the car trunk for up to five days, long enough for biochemical changes that attract the gnats, before being moved directly to the woods, likely in June or early July 2008.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/11/us-crime-anthony-idUSTRE75956Z20110611
​

The 2.6 days post-mortem decomp estimate (PMI) was based on the air testing done by Dr. Vass.

Vass's report: http://bit.ly/XwgBfo

IMO, not necessarily that Caylee's body spent 2.6 days in the trunk, but that the chemicals in the air sampled from the trunk matched the levels of typical decomp at 2.6 days post-mortem.

HTH

page 12 of that report dealt with the (VFA) butyric acid scraped from the carpet of the tire cover...

http://bit.ly/XwgBfo

I will bump some of these threads up for discussion...

 

[logicalgirl]

The bug expert (entomologist N. Haskell) testified Caylee's body was moved twice, and remained in the trunk for up to five (5) days.

Haskell estimated the body remained in the car trunk for up to five days, long enough for biochemical changes that attract the gnats, before being moved directly to the woods, likely in June or early July 2008.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/11/us-crime-anthony-idUSTRE75956Z20110611
​

The 2.6 days post-mortem decomp estimate (PMI) was based on the air testing done by Dr. Vass.

Vass's report: http://bit.ly/XwgBfo

IMO, not necessarily that Caylee's body spent 2.6 days in the trunk, but that the chemicals in the air sampled from the trunk matched the levels of typical decomp at 2.6 days post-mortem.

HTH

Yup - it would make sense that Dr. Vass's words are what are burned into my brain. And to add, Dr. Huntington for the Defense said there was no body in the trunk at all.
So what exactly are you saying - 3 - 5 or 2.5 to 3 days? Because to me it looks like you are flying both ways.

Nice you to hop in and comment - you will note I was responding to Spice whose post said 5-7 days.