In the trunk 2.6 days Decomp Info #1

[watcher9]

Oh yes and re the puddle vs the outline - the outline would have been easy - depending on the the amount of fluid. I actually see it the other way around - if she hadn't been bagged there would have been a larger puddle - but that's just me.

Yes, I agree with what you are saying and the one huge sticking point for me is I think FCA only thought about FCA. We know don't we that she backed her car into the garage on the 18th?

Okay so to me the picture looks like Caylee was in the trunk of the car for two days which would mean a fair amount of decomp fluid by that time. But the big sticker again for me that I can't wrap my head around was the thought of Caylee being in that trunk for 2 days uncovered. How could she possibly know that no one would open that trunk during that period of time? She couldn't have been sure - she might have gone through something as simple as a road block. When we have them up here we have to pop our trunks as each of us go through.

On the otherhand, maybe this explains the mysterious wool fibres we wondered about. Maybe she had her covered with a blanket during that time? One that was already in the trunk?

Didn't the pings put her at Tony's apartment for a day or so, probably in the bed. She wasn't worried at all about Caylee being in the trunk. When she finally made it back home and backed into the garage, that's when she bagged her.

I had forgotten about the blanket. If it was under and/or over Caylee, I bet it was soaked solid and was full of bugs. I wish they could have found it.

 

[watcher9]

Didn't Cindy say there was a blanket of some kind normally in the trunk?? One that wasn't there when the car was recovered?

ETA: Found the reference (although the document is stored on a site I can't link here). Cindy's 7/29/09 deposition:

Q Did you have knowledge as to whether or not Casey stored anything in the trunk?

A Yeah. She would keep -- usually she had basket and she would keep -- we had a blanket that we kept in there and I'm pretty sure she had a first-aid kit. And usually she would have an extra change of clothes, maybe a pair of shoes in there. And I think she even had new seat covers in there. And a visor for the windshield is usually kept in the trunk. We were going to put new seat covers on her car because there was a couple of, you know, places that was getting thinner.

. . .

Q Okay. The blue bin that's shown in Exhibit 15, is that the blue bin that was in the trunk?

A Yes. That -- I took that out of the trunk.

Q Okay. Were there items in the blue bin that you recall at this time?

A Typically there's a blanket and some other items. I don't know why they're not in there. I don't know so --

Q Do you have a specific recollection of what else was in the blue bin?

A I know typically, when I would see Casey's car, there would be a blanket that was -- like a red-plaid blanket and then her car-seat covers. Those she could have taken out. But the last time I had seen it-- truthfully, I don't recall if there's stuff in there, but typically that's what was in the bin in the back.

Thanks AZ for finding this again.

I wonder if CA rinsed off/washed the blue bin in the backyard when she took it out of the trunk?

FCA made a statement sometime about not finding the clothes. I wonder if the blanket, car-seat covers and the extra change of clothes that CA mentioned were all tossed at the same time because of being soaked with the fluids?

If those items could ever be found, it would be another smoking gun, maybe not quite as big as the find you and JWG made, but close.

 

[skbsoccermom]

Oh yes and re the puddle vs the outline - the outline would have been easy - depending on the the amount of fluid. I actually see it the other way around - if she hadn't been bagged there would have been a larger puddle - but that's just me.

Yes, I agree with what you are saying and the one huge sticking point for me is I think FCA only thought about FCA. We know don't we that she backed her car into the garage on the 18th?

Okay so to me the picture looks like Caylee was in the trunk of the car for two days which would mean a fair amount of decomp fluid by that time. But the big sticker again for me that I can't wrap my head around was the thought of Caylee being in that trunk for 2 days uncovered. How could she possibly know that no one would open that trunk during that period of time? She couldn't have been sure - she might have gone through something as simple as a road block. When we have them up here we have to pop our trunks as each of us go through.

On the otherhand, maybe this explains the mysterious wool fibres we wondered about. Maybe she had her covered with a blanket during that time? One that was already in the trunk?

I wasn't aware of wool fibers being found, but I would like to read about it. Since I am relatively new to WS, could someone tell me where I can find this info? Thanks in advance!

 

[AZlawyer]

Thanks AZ for finding this again.

I wonder if CA rinsed off/washed the blue bin in the backyard when she took it out of the trunk?

FCA made a statement sometime about not finding the clothes. I wonder if the blanket, car-seat covers and the extra change of clothes that CA mentioned were all tossed at the same time because of being soaked with the fluids?

If those items could ever be found, it would be another smoking gun, maybe not quite as big as the find you and JWG made, but close.

Cindy said she found the car seat covers in the garage, so she thought Casey must have taken them out of the bin.

 

[LolaMoon08]

I wonder if there would have been any additional evidence had the man from the tow yard called 911 after smelling the car close up? Instead of allowing George to even open the trunk, he could have said, "Yeah, this isn't good. I'm calling law enforcement as they may need to be the ones to open the trunk." I'll never understand why law enforcement wasn't called immediately to the tow yard? Who opens a trunk when the car smells like a decomposing body? Who allows someone to even open a trunk when it smells like a decomposing body? :banghead:

I'm not blaming the tow yard guy as he could not have predicted what this car was going to become, but dang! Maybe there should be a policy in place for tow yard employee's that when you smell or even see something suspicious when someone comes to pick up a car, that it needs to be reported to law enforcement?

 

[Tulessa]

I am in agreement with being bagged later. I would guess that if a bag were used and decompositional fluids leaked out, that there would be more "puddle-like" (for lack of a better description) staining evident in the trunk. For instance, a puddle where the ties were at the top or from any potential holes, etc. Instead, we see an outline of of a child.

I believe the lack of hair in the trunk was due to the fact that a majority of her hair was stuck to the duct tape. Maybe there were a few stray hairs that weren't and one happened to be found in the trunk.

I just read this thesis about determining the postmortem deterioration of human hair (forgive me if someone else has posted about this already).

http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-01242005-145140/unrestricted/Collier_thesis.pdf

What I noticed is that the researcher noted that the hair samples collected from cadavers had to be plucked from their heads. What I gleaned from that is that at least some if not most human head hair will remain on the scalp until it is physically removed or there is no longer any tissue holding it. So that may also explain the lack of hairs in the trunk.

Of course this is JMO.

According to Buzz Science, you lose ALL of your hair after dying.
http://www.sciencebuzz.org/blog/what-happens-my-hair-and-nails-after-death




The reason the hair and nails don't shrink is because while the rest of the body does, it's already dead. The only part of hair that is alive is the follicle (a small spherical group of cells) and when that dies, you go bald over times as your hair falls out. And since because your hair grows do to protein and oil, there isn't any living cells to carry out this function so it would just be long gone. Hairs and nails don't shrink during funeral time is because they used some moisturizing cream on their body and hair, this stops it from shrinking. And if they didn’t then your hair would have fallen out and you would go bald.

 

[watcher9]

I wonder if there would have been any additional evidence had the man from the tow yard called 911 after smelling the car close up? Instead of allowing George to even open the trunk, he could have said, "Yeah, this isn't good. I'm calling law enforcement as they may need to be the ones to open the trunk." I'll never understand why law enforcement wasn't called immediately to the tow yard? Who opens a trunk when the car smells like a decomposing body? Who allows someone to even open a trunk when it smells like a decomposing body? :banghead:

I'm not blaming the tow yard guy as he could not have predicted what this car was going to become, but dang! Maybe there should be a policy in place for tow yard employee's that when you smell or even see something suspicious when someone comes to pick up a car, that it needs to be reported to law enforcement?

If only LE had been called to the Amscot parking lot when the smell was first detected and thought to be coming from the dumpster or at least as soon as the manager had smelled it after it arrived in his lot, what a difference it may have made in this case.

It would be great if the tow company has learned a lesson from this case and set up new standard rules just as you have described.

 

[Jaykayelle]

According to Buzz Science, you lose ALL of your hair after dying.
http://www.sciencebuzz.org/blog/what-happens-my-hair-and-nails-after-death




The reason the hair and nails don't shrink is because while the rest of the body does, it's already dead. The only part of hair that is alive is the follicle (a small spherical group of cells) and when that dies, you go bald over times as your hair falls out. And since because your hair grows do to protein and oil, there isn't any living cells to carry out this function so it would just be long gone. Hairs and nails don't shrink during funeral time is because they used some moisturizing cream on their body and hair, this stops it from shrinking. And if they didn’t then your hair would have fallen out and you would go bald.

I'm not so sure about this. I don't know about the blog author's research, background, etc. Regardless, I still believe that the lack of hair could be explained due to the fact that the hair was stuck to the duct tape. Even 6 months later after being subjected to the elements.

JMO

 

[logicalgirl]

Didn't Cindy say there was a blanket of some kind normally in the trunk?? One that wasn't there when the car was recovered?

ETA: Found the reference (although the document is stored on a site I can't link here). Cindy's 7/29/09 deposition:

Q Did you have knowledge as to whether or not Casey stored anything in the trunk?

A Yeah. She would keep -- usually she had basket and she would keep -- we had a blanket that we kept in there and I'm pretty sure she had a first-aid kit. And usually she would have an extra change of clothes, maybe a pair of shoes in there. And I think she even had new seat covers in there. And a visor for the windshield is usually kept in the trunk. We were going to put new seat covers on her car because there was a couple of, you know, places that was getting thinner.

. . .

Q Okay. The blue bin that's shown in Exhibit 15, is that the blue bin that was in the trunk?

A Yes. That -- I took that out of the trunk.

Q Okay. Were there items in the blue bin that you recall at this time?

A Typically there's a blanket and some other items. I don't know why they're not in there. I don't know so --

Q Do you have a specific recollection of what else was in the blue bin?

A I know typically, when I would see Casey's car, there would be a blanket that was -- like a red-plaid blanket and then her car-seat covers. Those she could have taken out. But the last time I had seen it-- truthfully, I don't recall if there's stuff in there, but typically that's what was in the bin in the back.

Thanks for this AZLawyer - yes she did. We talked and talked about the fibres early on in the case when we were discovering the evidence - but sort of set it aside because we just couldn't figure out the value of them and the rest of the evidence was so overwhelming.

 

[logicalgirl]

I'm not so sure about this. I don't know about the blog author's research, background, etc. Regardless, I still believe that the lack of hair could be explained due to the fact that the hair was stuck to the duct tape. Even 6 months later after being subjected to the elements.

JMO

That could be - but the tape was only side to side, not going completely around her head according to the measurements I believe. I think it would be quite difficult to move a dead child out of a trunk unbagged and only have one hair fall out or off.

I have a lot of hair and am constantly losing hiar. Of course I am a living blonde (blonde's apparently have the most dense hair-who knew?)and can expect to lose 127 hairs a day. That's amazing when you think of it. So even if FCA put her hand under Caylee's head (and bottom) to pick her up, we could expect more than one hair to fall out - IMO of course.

 

[logicalgirl]

If only LE had been called to the Amscot parking lot when the smell was first detected and thought to be coming from the dumpster or at least as soon as the manager had smelled it after it arrived in his lot, what a difference it may have made in this case.

It would be great if the tow company has learned a lesson from this case and set up new standard rules just as you have described.

Aren't there laws about private property vs break and enter if someone either than the owner opens a trunk without a search warrant?

I am not arguing the logic in what you are saying at all by the way.

 

[logicalgirl]

Didn't the pings put her at Tony's apartment for a day or so, probably in the bed. She wasn't worried at all about Caylee being in the trunk. When she finally made it back home and backed into the garage, that's when she bagged her.

I had forgotten about the blanket. If it was under and/or over Caylee, I bet it was soaked solid and was full of bugs. I wish they could have found it.

She could easily have dumped all kinds of things in any dumpster along the way - since the car was there for quite a few days before it was picked up at the tow yard, anything tossed in a dumpster would be long gone....

 

[Jaykayelle]

That could be - but the tape was only side to side, not going completely around her head according to the measurements I believe. I think it would be quite difficult to move a dead child out of a trunk unbagged and only have one hair fall out or off.

I have a lot of hair and am constantly losing hiar. Of course I am a living blonde (blonde's apparently have the most dense hair-who knew?)and can expect to lose 127 hairs a day. That's amazing when you think of it. So even if FCA put her hand under Caylee's head (and bottom) to pick her up, we could expect more than one hair to fall out - IMO of course.

Ah that's right. For some reason I've had it in my head that the tape went around. I don't disagree that Caylee would have lost more than one hair, that's for sure. I presume there are likely several things that factor into LE only finding one. IMO trunk cleaning was likely the biggest factor.

JMO

 

[Jaykayelle]

Aren't there laws about private property vs break and enter if someone either than the owner opens a trunk without a search warrant?

I am not arguing the logic in what you are saying at all by the way.

I think LE can do a search without a warrant if they have probable cause. Not sure.

 

[RR0004]

I think LE can do a search without a warrant if they have probable cause. Not sure.

I'm tending to agree with you. What I'd like to know is, was the lot the car towed to a police impound lot? I know the tow truck driver had done work for the police towing vehicles before, but I'm not sure what kind of impound lot it was. I know that the vehicle was parked for an extended time...but was it illegally parked? It must have violated some statute...or can business owners decide to tow just "because"?

 

[ZsaZsa]

I'm tending to agree with you. What I'd like to know is, was the lot the car towed to a police impound lot? I know the tow truck driver had done work for the police towing vehicles before, but I'm not sure what kind of impound lot it was. I know that the vehicle was parked for an extended time...but was it illegally parked? It must have violated some statute...or can business owners decide to tow just "because"?

IIRC the check cashing company had a policy of getting 'abandoned' cars towed off their property once they had been left there over 3 days...
It was towed to the Johnson Wrecker company lot.

 

[logicalgirl]

Ah that's right. For some reason I've had it in my head that the tape went around. I don't disagree that Caylee would have lost more than one hair, that's for sure. I presume there are likely several things that factor into LE only finding one. IMO trunk cleaning was likely the biggest factor.

JMO

Re the trunk cleaning - much to our surprise, the CSI for the prosection testified at trial that the trunk had not been cleaned - that is vacuumed...we do know FCA either wiped the decomp fluid n paper towels from off the floor of the trunk or more likely her hands....

 

[logicalgirl]

IIRC the check cashing company had a policy of getting 'abandoned' cars towed off their property once they had been left there over 3 days...
It was towed to the Johnson Wrecker company lot.

Sure - most business car parking is for doing business at their location, not for more than a couple of hours. Leave a car for a couple of days and for sure it will get towed....

 

[logicalgirl]

I'm tending to agree with you. What I'd like to know is, was the lot the car towed to a police impound lot? I know the tow truck driver had done work for the police towing vehicles before, but I'm not sure what kind of impound lot it was. I know that the vehicle was parked for an extended time...but was it illegally parked? It must have violated some statute...or can business owners decide to tow just "because"?

I think you were right the first time RR0004 - I think they did some impounding for the police - but that was probably in a very secure part of the impound yard. Quite sure it wasn't specifically a police impound yard.

Do you think the police would actually come if you called them and said you smelled human decomp in a car? If you popped the trunk and there wasn't a body there or in the car? I dunno....

 

[Jaykayelle]

I think you were right the first time RR0004 - I think they did some impounding for the police - but that was probably in a very secure part of the impound yard. Quite sure it wasn't specifically a police impound yard.

Do you think the police would actually come if you called them and said you smelled human decomp in a car? If you popped the trunk and there wasn't a body there or in the car? I dunno....

I bet they would, although it might depend on the context of the conversation between the tow truck driver/tow yard owner and LE. Then they'd run the plates and the A's would have gotten a visit from LE before they found the note on the front door from the postal service. I wonder how different things would have gone if this scenario was what happened...

JMO