Is JBR's killer alive or dead?

[Eagle1]

..............
There is a topic in offender profiling known as a Psychological Autopsy which is a reconstruction of the victim’s psychology and its relationship to the offender.

And here there is a kind of inversion or transference of victimhood?

Bullying, even when we were children, whether it was physical or psychological, teasing, sometimes necessitated learning some kinds of psychological WARFARE, such as, for instance, a parent may have told us to act more confident, or turn the tables in some way.

Haven't we all used some mistake the bully made and switched our role to the victor, easily sent him or her packing? Even in childhood.

Example, in a commercial I heard just yesterday, some kid told her brother Mom got him such and such a room deoderizer because his room stinks, and after she was all done, the punch line was something like "Look, she got you one too."

When people bring up an incident where an underachiever accused me behind my back of being an overachiever, and think I should file suit because of the loss of a prestigious job, I always thank them profusely for their concern and reiterate that I ended up getting even more recognition, from nice people like them, the only ones who count, that it means a lot to me, and like that, on and on and on. Swtiched roles just like you're saying PR did. Not sick at all, just a way of happily surviving, seeing a glass as half empty or half full. Anyone can learn to do it. "Judge not that ye be not judged" is obviously not applicable if it's necessary self-defense, surely. Just means don't on your own start judging anyone who did nothing to you, right?

Jeffrey Dahmer and John Wayne Gacy are fair game for assumptions about their psychological conditions, convicted serial killers, but you can't make the same assumptions based on nothing but the one fact that a child's dead. Even the FBI seemed to decide to let the Ramsey case go cold, as way too complicated. Wouldn't it be unprofessional of them to go publishing surmisings about this mom's psychology? She's just smart enough to assert herself and it's self-defense.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

But JonBenet was not dead after her accident either a further strangulation or/and a head bash was delivered to finish her off?

She was possibly still alive when she was sexually assaulted, the blood on her genitals and underwear bears testimony to this?

And you are suggesting a homicide was being masked, the forensic evidence is patently clear, multiple attempts were made to kill JonBenet, and she was sexually assaulted, all whilst still alive, in my book all this adds up to murder!



This is possible but does not explain why it was visited upon JonBenet while she was still alive. Recursively an an even deeper motive is simply that John Ramsey silenced JonBenet to avoid the abuse being made public?

JonBenet was violently and systematically murdered, then this was staged to be an intruder abduction, which was later revised.

I'll give the Ramseys the benefit of the doubt here: I think that they believed JB was alread dead from the head bash which Patsy had delivered to her in rage. JB could have been in such a deep coma that ther breathing was to shallow to notice.
Therefore the later garroting was not murder, for you can't murder a person you think is already dead.

But if one doesn't give the Ramseys the benefit of the doubt, we would have two parents who realized that irreparable damage had been done to JB. Can you imagine Patsy pushing a severely brain-injured JB around in a wheelchair in public, and people whispering behind her back: "See that woman over there? That's Patsy Ramsey. Can you imagine, she hit her child so hard that the poor girl has been an invalid ever since!"
No way would the Ramseys have been able to live with this, and if we honestly ask ourselves: could anyone of us live with this? I know I couldn't. I can imagine that quite a few parents kill themselves after a rage attack on their child which leaves the child dead or an invalid. And if there hadn't been Burke to care for, I think that Patsy would indeed have committed suicide afterward.

So suppose the Ramseys knew JB was still alive but would either
- remain disabled or
- in case she would recover, maybe talk ("Mommy hit me"):
if they then put the cord around the neck believing this, they would indeed have committed a first-degree murder.

That JB was actually murdered by her parents is of course a theoretical possibility.

The same goes for your last scenario: suppose John Ramsey had been abusing JB chronically, and on that fatal night, JB said she was going to tell her mother about it?
And suppose John struck out at JB to silence her, this too would be first-degree murder. But would Patsy have covered up for John if he had cold-bloodedly killed her precious child? I find that very hard to believe.

I always had the feeling that the only person Patsy Ramsey would have covered up for was herself. I'm not even sure if she would have covered up for Burke. I suppose if Burke had killed JB, Patsy would have suffered a total nervous breakdown. Just my personal speculations though.

 

[rashomon]

Hi, Supe,

Good story and a good post, but to continue our lively discussions, can I play your brother for a minute?

Maybe he should have said something like (1) "But you have no proof whatsoever that PR had a martyr complex, or (2) that the perp who planned the "play" to be so confusing, almost every clue contradicted by some other clue, doesn't have a martyr complex. Lots of people do. " He could still come back at you after thinking about it.

Can you really imagine me or you enjoying (1) losing a child, (2) being accused by so many who want to oversimplify and jump to conclusions, (3) having cancer return long after the 5-yr all-clear, probably partly because of STRESS? She was a spunky person, but her stress clearly showed. I doubt she was stoned because with lots of meds you're warned not to drink.

Can I be your other brother? Just kidding.

It is true that Pasty was a hysterical person and a drama queen, but I doubt that, unlike John Karr, she 'enjoyed' the role of suspect.
But wanting to elicit compassion from the public as a 'falsely suspected' victim may have played a certain role. But on the whole, I think Patsy could only live with her situation by constantly numbing herself with psychopharmaca.

She and John created an staging scenario which involved just enough drama to point away from themselves. I believe that this was their motive, and not create drama for drama's sake. If they had wanted to do that, they would have displayed the body in a far more dramatic, even shocking way. But the child was wiped and wrapped in a blanket, the 'garrote' clumsily done and the ligatures around JB's hands not even pulled tight.
The ransom note was indeed dramatic, no question about it. But I think sheer panic directed the drama in the note: throw everything wildly together in the frantic hope that something would stick.

Patsy Ramsey was a person in denial over what she had done. And maybe she did derive some comfort from the fact that JonBenet would never be subjected to old age, but forever remain an icon of beauty in the public eye. A little like Marilyn Monroe, who obviously had been another of Patsy's idols. (At one pageant, both mother and daughter came dressed as Marilyn Monroe - that's sick).

 

[UKGuy]

I'll give the Ramseys the benefit of the doubt here: I think that they believed JB was alread dead from the head bash which Patsy had delivered to her in rage. JB could have been in such a deep coma that ther breathing was to shallow to notice.
Therefore the later garroting was not murder, for you can't murder a person you think is already dead.

But if one doesn't give the Ramseys the benefit of the doubt, we would have two parents who realized that irreparable damage had been done to JB. Can you imagine Patsy pushing a severely brain-injured JB around in a wheelachair in public, and people whispering behind her back: "See that woman over there? That's Patsy Ramsey. Can you imagine, she hit her child so hard that the poor girl has been an invalid ever since!"
No way would the Ramseys have been able to live with this, and if we honestly ask ourselves: could anyone of us live with this? I know I couldn't. I can imagine that quite a few parents kill themselves after a rage attack on their child which leaves the child dead or an invalid. And if there hadn't been Burke to care for, I think that Patsy would indeed have committed suicide afterward.

So suppose the Ramseys knew JB was still alive but would either
- remain disabled or
- in case she would recover, maybe talk ("Mommy hit me"):
if they then put the cord around the neck believing this, they would indeed have committed a first-degree murder.

That JB was actually murdered by her parents is of course a theoretical possibility.

The same goes for your last scenario: suppose John Ramsey had been abusing JB chronically, and on that fatal night, JB said she was going to tell her mother about it?
And suppose John struck out at JB to silence her, this too would be first-degree murder. But would Patsy have covered up for John if he had cold-bloodedly killed her precious child? I find that very hard to believe.

I always had the feeling that the only person Patsy Ramsey would have covered up for was herself. I'm not even sure if she would have covered up for Burke. I suppose if Burke had killed JB, Patsy would have suffered a total nervous breakdown. Just my personal speculations though.

rashomon,

Yes it may have evolved as you suggest, but the sequence of events is left open for debate.

I'll give the Ramseys the benefit of the doubt here: I think that they believed JB was alread dead from the head bash which Patsy had delivered to her in rage. JB could have been in such a deep coma that ther breathing was to shallow to notice.

If she thought JonBenet was already dead, why bother with any further attempts at finishing her off?

I dont think JonBenet was garotted at a later time, the garrote was applied to the ligature. Its controversial as to whether she was strangled manually or by the ligature?

Just to re-iterate, if JonBenet had accidently injured her skull, leaving Patsy in a quandary as to what course of action to take, then at this point it is still an accident, reporting this imo is less serious than staging a murder scene, and attempting to defend this position.


A more consistent explanation is that both parents were involved in a conspiracy to murder JonBenet.

.

 

[Ivy2]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This falls right into place, SD! It explains why I have been so 'bent on' seeing elements of DID/MPD involved here as well. The emotional, over the top hysterionics in publically broadcasted interviews and the childlike persona was intended to 'elicit sympathy'. A 'Dec. 25th death date' adds to the 'martyr syndrome' thought process. You are so on the money, with your suggestion that the 'intruder' and the cops fall right into place in creating the villians. They perfectly support her being viewed as the victim/martyr. And what better villian to end the story of a grieving mother, than with her own death at the hands the monster Cancer, forever to being seen as a victim!
(I understand that this sounds very cold, but I witnessed first hand, the person in my own life using me as a pawn to write their own eulogy to create this exact "Forever After" ending, and at this moment I feel physically sick about it!)
QUOTE]

Angelwngs,

I was moved by your post and sense that you have been through much pain and frustration. I wonder if this person you are discussing might be your mom. I have a good friend whose mom sounds exactly like the person you describe and she has spent most of her adult life trying to overcome the drama/trauma of her childhood.

Excellent observations from you and SuperDave!

 

[Brefie]

Patsy Ramsey was a person in denial over what she had done. And maybe she did derive some comfort from the fact that JonBenet would never be subjected to old age, but forever remain an icon of beauty in the public eye. A little like Marilyn Monroe, who obviously had been another of Patsy's idols. (At one pageant, both mother and daughter came dressed as Marilyn Monroe - that's sick).

Your darn right it is! Good God! Who dresses their small child like a sex symbol? I truly think Patsy should have been arrested for various things even before JBR died.

 

[BBB167893]

"I'm not sure exactly what you mean here? Are you suggesting Patsy created an elaborate staging because she wished to slot herself into the role of the mother of a dead beauty queen?"

Not so much. I simply meant that it snowballed. As I've said elsewhere: Patsy made sure that JB was spectacular in life. A mundane death would not do.

"Good story and a good post, but to continue our lively discussions, can I play your brother for a minute?"

You're lucky he's out right now!

Maybe he should have said something like (1) "But you have no proof whatsoever that PR had a martyr complex, or (2) that the perp who planned the "play" to be so confusing, almost every clue contradicted by some other clue, doesn't have a martyr complex. Lots of people do. " He could still come back at you after thinking about it.

He did!

1) I'm not the one that said it, to start with.

2) I was merely seeking a possible answer.

Can you really imagine me or you enjoying (1) losing a child, (2) being accused by so many who want to oversimplify and jump to conclusions, (3) having cancer return long after the 5-yr all-clear, probably partly because of STRESS? She was a spunky person, but her stress clearly showed. I doubt she was stoned because with lots of meds you're warned not to drink.

Don't give me that. I've had it up to HERE with that "BORG killed Patsy" business!

I never said she enjoyed losing a child. I said she was hooked on the sympathy she got from some circles.

"Can I be your other brother? Just kidding."

Okay, but I don't think my mother will be very keen on the idea! LOL

"Now what should the Ramseys have told the hospital staff? That the child fell down the stairs in the middle of the night, or fell down in the bathroom? How many parents try to cover it up just like that? Many, which is why hosital staff are very trained in that field and see a red flag immediately. The Ramseys wouldn't have stood a chance to get away with it."

It's the oldest dodge in the book!

But if one doesn't give the Ramseys the benefit of the doubt, we would have two parents who realized that irreparable damage had been done to JB. Can you imagine Patsy pushing a severely brain-injured JB around in a wheelachair in public, and people whispering behind her back: "See that woman over there? That's Patsy Ramsey. Can you imagine, she hit her child so hard that the poor girl has been an invalid ever since!"
No way would the Ramseys have been able to live with this, and if we honestly ask ourselves: could anyone of us live with this? I know I couldn't. I can imagine that quite a few parents kill themselves after a rage attack on their child which leaves the child dead or an invalid. And if there hadn't been Burke to care for, I think that Patsy would indeed have committed suicide afterward.

In an odd way, you could almost say it was a mercy killing, if you go by that scenario.

 

[JMO8778]

Because the staging of an accident only (even if it was elaborately done) would not have pointed away enough from the parents as the perps.
But a bizarre sexaul assault staging would do exactly that: point away from the parents as the perps.
How often have we heard on JBR message boards "I can't imagine parents would garrote their child." And that's exactly what the Ramseys wanted people to believe.

ITA !

And it worked with many people - it even worked with Lou Smit.

I don't know about him,personally it seems to me like he has something to gain from it.In ST's book he points out the obvious but LS just keeps ignoring it.I can't think he could really be that dumb.(I could be wrong tho,maybe he is !)

 

[JMO8778]

Your darn right it is! Good God! Who dresses their small child like a sex symbol? I truly think Patsy should have been arrested for various things even before JBR died.

Yes,something was wrong there I believe.That makes me think that PR was sexually abused as a child.So she thought nothing of it to dress a child up as a sex symbol.In fact, she may have felt it was her duty,at least with a daughter anyway.Like beauty is the only thing a woman is worthy of.
Very dysfunctional if you ask me.Even that poor child's makeup made her look like she was an adult.Much too much for a child.Not to even mention the outfits.
I got the feeling PR was fixing JB up for more than her own self though.It seems to me PR was trying to get attention from it somewhere,either from one person(someone sexually abusing her?) or from several people.(ppl taking pics of her?)It just seems she was directing attention to JB for more than just a wide audience by the way she was so made up.It seems so personalized.JMO.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

If she thought JonBenet was already dead, why bother with any further attempts at finishing her off?

UKGuy,

I think the motive was not to finish JB off, but a frantic and panic-induced creation of a sexual predator scenario of which no one should believe that the parents could have done it. Just think of the many Ramsey supporters who time and again repeat the mantra: "I just can't imagine parents would garrote their child, and therefore the Ramseys must be innocent." It seems the Ramseys' scenario has worked with these people.

Just to re-iterate, if JonBenet had accidently injured her skull, leaving Patsy in a quandary as to what course of action to take, then at this point it is still an accident, reporting this imo is less serious than staging a murder scene, and attempting to defend this position.

Just to reiterate too: there exist accidents and other 'accidents'.
I think no one would dispute that, suppose JB had fallen and hurt her head against the bathtub or whatever, without a parent being involved in it, the Ramseys would have taken the child to the hospital, for they would not have had anyting to hide.

But suppose JB's head was struck against the bathtub because an enraged parent yanked her around? The parent did not want to cause her death, but tragically, the child received a deadly injury from the blow. In that case the parent was involved in the child's death, and we have a totally different situatiion.

I dont think JonBenet was garotted at a later time, the garrote was applied to the ligature.

I think both the ligature and the garrote were bogus contraptions used purely for staging purposes. Like Delmar England pointed out, the garrote was ineffective, for the fixed knot tied on jB's neck would have prevented any garroting.
And what would be the purpose of wrist ties which didn't even bind the victim? Wrist ties which were not only loosely bound, but which left such a big space (17 inches!) between the hands that everyone, child or adult, would have been able to move their hands and get rid of the ligature. Couple all this with the duct tape which left a perfect lip impression, and everything points to the wrist ties, neck knot and tape being put on an unresisting body nearing death, e. g. to a staged scene.

 

[UKGuy]

rashomon,

I think we agree on the staging aspect, but differ on the initial cause, you favor the ADI theory.

Currently I am not convinced, my first thought upon reading some details about this case was why was an Accident cover up was not staged?

This seems the most obvious route to take, yet a murder scene was staged complete with a sexual assault.

If I was Columbo I'd go and ask just one more question, because there appears more to this case than meets the eye?


.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes,something was wrong there I believe.That makes me think that PR was sexually abused as a child.So she thought nothing of it to dress a child up as a sex symbol.In fact, she may have felt it was her duty,at least with a daughter anyway.Like beauty is the only thing a woman is worthy of.
Very dysfunctional if you ask me.Even that poor child's makeup made her look like she was an adult.Much too much for a child.Not to even mention the outfits.
I got the feeling PR was fixing JB up for more than her own self though.It seems to me PR was trying to get attention from it somewhere,either from one person(someone sexually abusing her?) or from several people.(ppl taking pics of her?)It just seems she was directing attention to JB for more than just a wide audience by the way she was so made up.It seems so personalized.JMO.

JMO8778,

Yes I agree with your remarks.

It just seems she was directing attention to JB for more than just a wide audience by the way she was so made up.It seems so personalized.JMO.

imo this is 110% correct!


.

 

[BBB167893]

"I got the feeling PR was fixing JB up for more than her own self though.It seems to me PR was trying to get attention from it somewhere,either from one person(someone sexually abusing her?) or from several people.(ppl taking pics of her?)It just seems she was directing attention to JB for more than just a wide audience by the way she was so made up.It seems so personalized.JMO."

As I've posted before, three shrink-types agree with that assessment.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

I think we agree on the staging aspect, but differ on the initial cause, you favor the ADI theory.

Currently I am not convinced, my first thought upon reading some details about this case was why was an Accident cover up was not staged?

This seems the most obvious route to take, yet a murder scene was staged complete with a sexual assault.

If I was Columbo I'd go and ask just one more question, because there appears more to this case than meets the eye?

UKGuy,

what exactly do you mean by ADI?

 

[BBB167893]

I think it means "Accident Did it."

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

what exactly do you mean by ADI?

rashomon,

Yes Accident Did It since the same injuries could be the result of a frenzied and sustained violent assault, a view I currently hold.

JonBenet had mutiple injuries including the one that spill her skull open, all of these cannot be explained away as an accident, even if you wish to assume the neck contusions and abrasions beneath the ligature resulted from her top being twisted and acting as a ligature.


.

 

[JMO8778]

"I got the feeling PR was fixing JB up for more than her own self though.It seems to me PR was trying to get attention from it somewhere,either from one person(someone sexually abusing her?) or from several people.(ppl taking pics of her?)It just seems she was directing attention to JB for more than just a wide audience by the way she was so made up.It seems so personalized.JMO."

As I've posted before, three shrink-types agree with that assessment.

Thx for verifying that.Just from seeing how overdone and over made-up she was,I have a feeling that was the case too.

 

[JMO8778]

rashomon,

Yes Accident Did It since the same injuries could be the result of a frenzied and sustained violent assault, a view I currently hold.

JonBenet had mutiple injuries including the one that spill her skull open, all of these cannot be explained away as an accident, even if you wish to assume the neck contusions and abrasions beneath the ligature resulted from her top being twisted and acting as a ligature.


.

True.I don't get why some ppl say she wasn't beaten tho.She was struck on the head,had several abrasions and a scratch on one leg ,according to the autopsy report.Not to mention her neck injury as well.What would qualify as being beaten?IMO, I don't call it an accident.

 

[JMO8778]

I should probably post this as a new thread,but since the subject of abrasions came up,I'll just continue it here.
I read there was a (plastic?)loom or something in JB's bedroom,found on the floor.I think someone said it was the small kind like potholders,placemats ,etc., are made with.
Could this possibly be the cause of the abrasions?If she was assualted in her bedroom on the floor,I'm thinking the prongs from the loom might have been the cause for some of the abrasions,altho I do recall reading about PR's rings being a close match for some of them,and that makes sense.
Esp. since I think JR knows JB was beaten, he had to account for the abrasions by turning them into 'stun gun' marks,which I think is a big farce.
Pardon if this has been asked before.I'm fairly new here.

 

[Eagle1]

"I got the feeling PR was fixing JB up for more than her own self though.It seems to me PR was trying to get attention from it somewhere,either from one person(someone sexually abusing her?) or from several people.(ppl taking pics of her?)It just seems she was directing attention to JB for more than just a wide audience by the way she was so made up.It seems so personalized.JMO."

As I've posted before, three shrink-types agree with that assessment.

Mind telling us which three shrink-types, and where we can find their opinion? This brainstorming leads us in all sorts of directions doesn't it? You mean well-known mental illness syndromes? Which?