Israel Keyes: General Discussion

[dub]

Found a possible case in Florida by accident while looking into a totally unrelated Keyes thing.

John George Smith – The Charley Project

Disappeared the same day/same year from the same county as NAMUS 45 hit Bryan Gomes. Keyes is unaccounted for at this time, Kim is traveling for work. I'm not surprised I missed this one myself as I haven't looked much into Florida at all, but I am surprised I've never seen this case in any Keyes research with a NAMUS 45 hit that strong.

He would be an atypical Keyes victim as he is a big young guy, but could have been a relatively easy opportunity if he was hitchhiking as he was known to do.

 

[dotr]

Found a possible case in Florida by accident while looking into a totally unrelated Keyes thing.

John George Smith – The Charley Project

Disappeared the same day/same year from the same county as NAMUS 45 hit Bryan Gomes. Keyes is unaccounted for at this time, Kim is traveling for work. I'm not surprised I missed this one myself as I haven't looked much into Florida at all, but I am surprised I've never seen this case in any Keyes research with a NAMUS 45 hit that strong.

He would be an atypical Keyes victim as he is a big young guy, but could have been a relatively easy opportunity if he was hitchhiking as he was known to do.

Interesting, started thread for John..

FL - FL- John George Smith (AKA Emmaus Carrol Walter and/or Johnnie George Walter), 29, St. James City, 1 Dec 2006, *known to hitchhike throughout US*

rbbm. https://charleyproject.org/case/john-george-smith John George Smith Smith, circa 2006 Missing Since12/01/2006 Missing FromSt. James City, Florida ClassificationMissing SexMale RaceWhite Date of Birth03/03/1977 (46) Age29 years old Height and Weight6'0, 200 pounds Distinguishing...

www.websleuths.com

 

[dub]

New season of TCBS is up and running, and e1 is a great start.

There’s really interesting stuff about Keyes’ more general psychology outside of his criminal behavior (and how it bleeds into that), but also two particular points that are far more relevant to case discussion.

1. Further evidence that his construction work in Alaska on the timeline did not necessarily preclude him from traveling during those periods - reading between the lines, it sounded like this was likely especially true during the later part of his time there.

1a. According to Kim, he hardly worked, if at all, during at least his last two winters in Alaska.

2. Apparently Keyes at times used Kim’s work computer without her knowledge, and the FBI found pictures of fifteen or sixteen women on it, one of whom was Sam Koenig. Most importantly, who were these women?! But also knowing how Keyes operated, it’s really strange to me that they were all women—there was no mention of any men. [I checked to be sure, and my current list of projected victims actually has more men on it than women, for what it’s worth, which is probably very little]

This is not to say that they were victims—sex workers also came to mind—but I’m pretty sure he saw male sex workers as well as female, so wtf.


Also apparently in Alaska Keyes had a windowless white van, which if nothing else proves that even the most anomalous serial killers are on some level basic as hell.

 

[WyomingSkyAngel]

^ Thanks for posting this.

I try to not think about this serial killer but he has quite the post-humous notoriety thing going on. (Can't think of better words to use, brain is fried.)

Just yikes. I imagine his girlfriend still has a lot of sleepless nights. How horrifying.

 

[dub]

^ Thanks for posting this.

I try to not think about this serial killer but he has quite the post-humous notoriety thing going on. (Can't think of better words to use, brain is fried.)

Just yikes. I imagine his girlfriend still has a lot of sleepless nights. How horrifying.

Kim tried so, so hard to help him too, in terms of what she thought his problems were (which she was correct about to a point) and just had no clue whatsoever what she was dealing with. Because who could ever see that coming.

If you haven’t listened to the new episode, it goes quite a bit into that exact thing too. It’s brutal.

 

[miguel magdump]

Kim tried so, so hard to help him too, in terms of what she thought his problems were (which she was correct about to a point) and just had no clue whatsoever what she was dealing with. Because who could ever see that coming.

If you haven’t listened to the new episode, it goes quite a bit into that exact thing too. It’s brutal.

Agreed, Kim was a saint. However, it was pretty obvious IK had a screw loose from his multiple Satanic brandings - anyone who seared a pentagram and inverted cross permanently into their skin is probably not the best person to become involved with. So there were warning signs present. A person who admires the devil doing evil things is not exactly surprising!

New season of TCBS is up and running, and e1 is a great start.

There’s really interesting stuff about Keyes’ more general psychology outside of his criminal behavior (and how it bleeds into that), but also two particular points that are far more relevant to case discussion.

1. Further evidence that his construction work in Alaska on the timeline did not necessarily preclude him from traveling during those periods - reading between the lines, it sounded like this was likely especially true during the later part of his time there.

1a. According to Kim, he hardly worked, if at all, during at least his last two winters in Alaska.

2. Apparently Keyes at times used Kim’s work computer without her knowledge, and the FBI found pictures of fifteen or sixteen women on it, one of whom was Sam Koenig. Most importantly, who were these women?! But also knowing how Keyes operated, it’s really strange to me that they were all women—there was no mention of any men. [I checked to be sure, and my current list of projected victims actually has more men on it than women, for what it’s worth, which is probably very little]

This is not to say that they were victims—sex workers also came to mind—but I’m pretty sure he saw male sex workers as well as female, so wtf.


Also apparently in Alaska Keyes had a windowless white van, which if nothing else proves that even the most anomalous serial killers are on some level basic as hell.

Very interesting, thanks. Perhaps Israel deleted the pictures of the male prostitutes out of shame - less shame than visiting female prostitutes, anyhow.

 

[LeneYael]

New season of TCBS is up and running, and e1 is a great start.

There’s really interesting stuff about Keyes’ more general psychology outside of his criminal behavior (and how it bleeds into that), but also two particular points that are far more relevant to case discussion.

1. Further evidence that his construction work in Alaska on the timeline did not necessarily preclude him from traveling during those periods - reading between the lines, it sounded like this was likely especially true during the later part of his time there.

1a. According to Kim, he hardly worked, if at all, during at least his last two winters in Alaska.

2. Apparently Keyes at times used Kim’s work computer without her knowledge, and the FBI found pictures of fifteen or sixteen women on it, one of whom was Sam Koenig. Most importantly, who were these women?! But also knowing how Keyes operated, it’s really strange to me that they were all women—there was no mention of any men. [I checked to be sure, and my current list of projected victims actually has more men on it than women, for what it’s worth, which is probably very little]

This is not to say that they were victims—sex workers also came to mind—but I’m pretty sure he saw male sex workers as well as female, so wtf.


Also apparently in Alaska Keyes had a windowless white van, which if nothing else proves that even the most anomalous serial killers are on some level basic as hell.

There is nothing to suggest he targeted men, unless they were part of a couple. We know of no such attacks. Doubt he was ashamed of being bi, he talked about it so openly. I think he was too much of a coward to attack single men. The fear on the women’s faces was surely a big part of it all.

 

[dub]

There is nothing to suggest he targeted men, unless they were part of a couple. We know of no such attacks. Doubt he was ashamed of being bi, he talked about it so openly. I think he was too much of a coward to attack single men. The fear on the women’s faces was surely a big part of it all.

There's nothing to absolutely confirm that Keyes targeted men alone, as in no fully confirmed victims, but there is a TON to suggest that he did. His own statements about the dude in the VW bug that he aborted an attack on before abducting the Curriers is one. The knife found at his house that was almost certainly Jimmy Tidwell's is another.

I don't really understand the idea of being too much of a coward to target a man, but being fully willing to target both a man and a woman, that doesn't track with me. But that's fine.

The question of his perspective on his own bisexuality is an interesting one, I've given it some thought but don't have a strong opinion on that. Shame around sexuality and its effects on behavior can be extremely complicated, and beyond that I don't feel equipped to speak on it. Not to mention the complexities in parsing out what exactly "shame" in any context means to a psychopath!

 

[LeneYael]

There's nothing to absolutely confirm that Keyes targeted men alone, as in no fully confirmed victims, but there is a TON to suggest that he did. His own statements about the dude in the VW bug that he aborted an attack on before abducting the Curriers is one. The knife found at his house that was almost certainly Jimmy Tidwell's is another.

I don't really understand the idea of being too much of a coward to target a man, but being fully willing to target both a man and a woman, that doesn't track with me. But that's fine.

The question of his perspective on his own bisexuality is an interesting one, I've given it some thought but don't have a strong opinion on that. Shame around sexuality and its effects on behavior can be extremely complicated, and beyond that I don't feel equipped to speak on it. Not to mention the complexities in parsing out what exactly "shame" in any context means to a psychopath!

 

[LeneYael]

I don’t think the story about the VW bug guy was true. If it’s true, then he hadn’t stalked/chosen the Currier’s in advance. Can’t be both.
About the knife that was ”almost certainly” Jimmy Tidwell’s. I’d love to hear more about that. Can’t find this anywhere in the interviews or files, so would love to hear more about it. Some days I think he was a victim of IK, some days I don’t. His hair is listed as grey everywhere and looks quite thin in all pictures.

 

[dub]

I don’t think the story about the VW bug guy was true. If it’s true, then he hadn’t stalked/chosen the Currier’s in advance. Can’t be both.
About the knife that was ”almost certainly” Jimmy Tidwell’s. I’d love to hear more about that. Can’t find this anywhere in the interviews or files, so would love to hear more about it. Some days I think he was a victim of IK, some days I don’t. His hair is listed as grey everywhere and looks quite thin in all pictures.

I agree that there’s something amiss with the bug guy story, but I think it’s generally true, just occurred at some other time. But that’s just me, could be wrong.

The knife is discussed in TCBS s3 e17 and in another episode I can’t remember, I don’t remember the exact story but it was like a promo pocket knife found at Keyes’ house from a random company in Texas that was the parent company of the one Jimmy Tidwell worked for or something. I can’t recall the exact association, but it was like a half step from being directly related to him.

 

[LeneYael]

I agree that there’s something amiss with the bug guy story, but I think it’s generally true, just occurred at some other time. But that’s just me, could be wrong.

The knife is discussed in TCBS s3 e17 and in another episode I can’t remember, I don’t remember the exact story but it was like a promo pocket knife found at Keyes’ house from a random company in Texas that was the parent company of the one Jimmy Tidwell worked for or something. I can’t recall the exact association, but it was like a half step from being directly related to him.

I’ve heard the episode, I don’t think it’s discussed in any other episode? We were left kind of hanging in the air with that one. I’ve gone through and through the inventory, the lists of what was found and taken from the house yet I can’t find it. I remembered it was a pen with the factory name of where JT worked. Seems I have to go listen again, lol! But nothing more has ever been said about it. Please, if you remember where else it has been talked about or if you’ve seen it in the files somewhere, let me know. I agree that the ”stuck in mud”, Azle bankrobbery on the 16th and Aledo fire coinciding with JT going missing 15th or 16th is very suspicious. The hair on the helmet looks really dark and not stringy at all. Could he have been with a sexworker? Idk.

 

[LeneYael]

I agree that there’s something amiss with the bug guy story, but I think it’s generally true, just occurred at some other time. But that’s just me, could be wrong.

The knife is discussed in TCBS s3 e17 and in another episode I can’t remember, I don’t remember the exact story but it was like a promo pocket knife found at Keyes’ house from a random company in Texas that was the parent company of the one Jimmy Tidwell worked for or something. I can’t recall the exact association, but it was like a half step from being directly related to him.

You know the pictures of him with somekind of semi lei in a tropical setting? His hair is long there. If taken on the cruise, maybe he just cut his own hair? And wanted to sound morbid like that time when he told Feldis he wanted to see the pictures if remains of L&B Currier were ever found. Not that I doubt he actually also wanted to see the pictures.

 

[marable]

You know the pictures of him with somekind of semi lei in a tropical setting? His hair is long there. If taken on the cruise, maybe he just cut his own hair? And wanted to sound morbid like that time when he told Feldis he wanted to see the pictures if remains of L&B Currier were ever found. Not that I doubt he actually also wanted to see the pictures.

I wonder if IK liked to revisit his victims remains like Ted Bundy did ? That may be why he wanted to see the photos of Bill and Lorraine Currier ....During some of the FBI interviews IK seemed to be reliving some details of the people he murdered as he became restless...

 

[Muddy K]

I wonder if IK liked to revisit his victims remains like Ted Bundy did ? That may be why he wanted to see the photos of Bill and Lorraine Currier ....During some of the FBI interviews IK seemed to be reliving some details of the people he murdered as he became restless...

IMO, the most revealing moments in the FBI interviews were those instances when Keyes was describing various killings. JMO, it's not "restlessness" that overcame him in those moments, it's agitation, desire and possessiveness. He could re-live each murder every day if he so chose - and I believe he did - but he did not want to share the intimate details with anyone else. Not ever. Those couple of times when he had to describe a killing, per his strategic choices around bargaining for the death penalty, it was really difficult for him to narrate the event while at the same time keeping the experience completely his own private property. He had to work hard to conceal his arousal, which was still immense all those months later.

Maybe he would have revisited victims, but I don't think he needed to. I think he had all he needed in the scenes he could replay at will. I think he replayed a couple of them right there in front of the agents. Chilling.

 

[marable]

IMO, the most revealing moments in the FBI interviews were those instances when Keyes was describing various killings. JMO, it's not "restlessness" that overcame him in those moments, it's agitation, desire and possessiveness. He could re-live each murder every day if he so chose - and I believe he did - but he did not want to share the intimate details with anyone else. Not ever. Those couple of times when he had to describe a killing, per his strategic choices around bargaining for the death penalty, it was really difficult for him to narrate the event while at the same time keeping the experience completely his own private property. He had to work hard to conceal his arousal, which was still immense all those months later.

Maybe he would have revisited victims, but I don't think he needed to. I think he had all he needed in the scenes he could replay at will. I think he replayed a couple of them right there in front of the agents. Chilling.

I felt the same way , just didn't want to state what I really thought ...I think that he did become aroused in just talking about his victims and how he disposed of them ...And that laugh of his during those interviews made chills go up my spine , can you imagine having to listen to that as he was killing you ?? You are so right , chilling !!

 

[cujenn81]

I’m curious to hear what everyone thinks about the somewhat lack of interest in Keyes in the true crime world (especially when compared to other serial killers). If you really think about it, TCB is really the only podcast I know of that has covered his crimes AT ALL. There’s been a single book written about him AFAIK. Whereas other serial killers have a dozen or more books written about them and every true crime podcast has done at least one episode about them. Why do you think that is?

Do you think it’s because he was somewhat successful in minimizing publicity? Because he was such a private person and so little is really known about who he was and the true extent of his crimes?

Because those are actually the reasons that I find him so fascinating (for lack of a better term). It’s because he was so private and seemingly committed an untold number of heinous crimes for years and years and years without a single ounce of suspicion from anyone … these are reasons why I would expect him to be a frequent topic of discussion amongst true crime followers. But that doesn’t seem to be the case. (To me anyway…)

 

[Muddy K]

I’m curious to hear what everyone thinks about the somewhat lack of interest in Keyes in the true crime world (especially when compared to other serial killers).

Snipped to just your main question. It's such a good question @cujenn81 and I could write an essay in response.

Here are just a few thoughts. All JMO, of course.

Why doesn't Keyes occupy more acreage in the true crime world?

He was too likeable, too ordinary. He wasn't overtly strange, not displaying behaviors like those that led people to perceive - often after the fact - deviant psychologies in Bundy, Gacy, Ramirez, Dahmer, Kemper, Cunanan, etc. He wasn't "disturbing" in the way that makes people cross the street.

His confirmed body count isn't high enough.
His modalities of murder aren't sensational enough.
His path to becoming a killer isn't tragic enough.

Lack of crime-scene photos doesn't help, either.

 

[dub]

I’ve heard the episode, I don’t think it’s discussed in any other episode? We were left kind of hanging in the air with that one. I’ve gone through and through the inventory, the lists of what was found and taken from the house yet I can’t find it. I remembered it was a pen with the factory name of where JT worked. Seems I have to go listen again, lol! But nothing more has ever been said about it. Please, if you remember where else it has been talked about or if you’ve seen it in the files somewhere, let me know. I agree that the ”stuck in mud”, Azle bankrobbery on the 16th and Aledo fire coinciding with JT going missing 15th or 16th is very suspicious. The hair on the helmet looks really dark and not stringy at all. Could he have been with a sexworker? Idk.

It was definitely a knife, not a pen - hence the title of s3 e17 “The Knife”.

I can’t remember what other episode it was, I was listening to some older episodes recently but I was jumping around so I can’t nail it down, but I’m almost positive there was one.

But if you want some other compelling circumstantial info related to Tidwell (as well as some other cases) listen to s4 e14.

 

[dub]

I’m curious to hear what everyone thinks about the somewhat lack of interest in Keyes in the true crime world (especially when compared to other serial killers). If you really think about it, TCB is really the only podcast I know of that has covered his crimes AT ALL. There’s been a single book written about him AFAIK. Whereas other serial killers have a dozen or more books written about them and every true crime podcast has done at least one episode about them. Why do you think that is?

Do you think it’s because he was somewhat successful in minimizing publicity? Because he was such a private person and so little is really known about who he was and the true extent of his crimes?

Because those are actually the reasons that I find him so fascinating (for lack of a better term). It’s because he was so private and seemingly committed an untold number of heinous crimes for years and years and years without a single ounce of suspicion from anyone … these are reasons why I would expect him to be a frequent topic of discussion amongst true crime followers. But that doesn’t seem to be the case. (To me anyway…)

I think a lot of it is just that so little information about the case was released for so long, so there wasn’t much to explore.

TCBS is what really blew open the possibility of extensive engagement on the case, and that didn’t start until, what, seven or eight years after Keyes was arrested? So I imagine a lot of people who otherwise would have been engaged had forgotten about it by then.

And even TCBS is a niche enough thing that you kinda need to seek it out. I started doing Keyes research in like 2014 and I didn’t even know about it until season 3.

I think it was more to do with the FBI being successful in minimizing publicity than Keyes himself (though for sure both were part of it), and Keyes was the only reason we know anything at all - based on his deal with the FBI, if he hadn’t offed himself and was just chillin in prison to this day, the world would literally not even know he existed.

Even with him dead, the FBI is still SO cagey about anything related to Keyes, and why that is is a whole other semi-related question that I wish I had an answer to.