Jahi’s family wants her declared 'alive again’

[threecrazykids]

Sadly, I think they honestly believe that Jahi is going to be "proof" of God's will at work when it's all said and done. They believe she is going to "beat" brain death and that all the non-believers will be proven wrong. That she is NOT dead. That their prayers will prove that God chose not to take Jahi.
I don't think it's necessarily a religious debate...I think there is severe denial going on and they do not believe she's really dead. It's extremely sad IMO...and they are searching the corners of the earth for ANYONE who will remotely support them in this quest of "Jahi lives".
The mother has stated she would never let Jahi suffer...but in her current state, they don't see it as suffering because she's not writhing in pain...she's "sleeping and healing".

 

[MyBelle]

Yeah... IIRC from the earlier threads the criteria for declaring brain death have been revised and rewritten a few times so it's not out of the question that they could be revised again. But I think that before using Jahi as evidence that the criteria need to be changed we should see impartial tests from people who have no dog in this race. There seems to be a strong possibility for confirmation bias in the interpretation of Jahi's twitches, and was the EEG really reliably administered? The guys at the IBRF institute seem more than a little iffy to me, the way they're marketing their cures, and Fellus being struck off didn't help either, and they went to the press saying they could help Jahi before seeing her. Shewmon seems respectable enough but I understand he's not examined Jahi personally so anything he has is second hand and only as reliable as the sources of his information and he appears to have a strong philosophy about brain death.

Give me an experienced neurologist who is not out to prove he can cure brain death or philosophisizing about whether it's our duty to keep brain dead individuals on life support forevermore on the off chance that the existence that they have could be somehow considered life, and have him arrange an EEG and the rest of the tests and once he says Jahi has brain activity I'd be more convinced.


I have a huge problem with the way Dolan is not saying Fisher et al's diagnosis was wrong because if it wasn't wrong Jahi was without brain blood flow for a long time and then logically she must be brain dead.

Unless maybe there was a divine miracle.... but if there was a divine miracle it was left sadly half-way and unfinished.

BBM. With all due respect, the only confirmation bias seems to be a reflection of your own. Where do you even get that any of the physicians lack the necessary credentials or need more experience in interpreting diagnostic tests? Dr. Shewmon is retired. Do you really think a Judge is not going to view him as an expert witness once the jurisdictional issues are resolved?

To suggest that Dr. Shewmon is somehow biased or that he or anybody else has even suggested they can "cure" brain death has no basis in facts I've seen. The point he made in the affidavit wasn't that Jahi is "cured" it is that she was never brain dead to begin with but the testing failed to detect it. I've also seen nothing that indicates the IBRF is an "iffy" organization. The Advisory Board is comprised of professionals around the world including Italy, Spain, Poland and Canada. I just don't see how it is iffy in any facet.

http://www.ibrfinc.org/advisory_board.htm

JMO

 

[Hiandmighty]

I would imagine the court will have to appoint independent specialists to evaluate Jahi themselves.... I suspect they will disagree with everything the McMath's family/lawyer has stated.

 

[MyBelle]

I am not trying to start a religious debate here and my questions are mostly hypothetical but can someone explain to me the logic of expecting a miracle while relying on science to perform said miracle? In other words, if this family truly believes it is God's will for Jahi to survive this, why not take her off life support and let the miracle happen? If they don't do that because they know it won't work, then isn't it God's will to let her go?

While the mother may believe in miracles, if Jahi's brain is showing activity it would be illegal for any physician to remove her from life support. The laws pertaining to organ transplantation are quite specific for that very reason. Physicians nor anybody else get to decide when to terminate life support when a brain is showing activity.
A Do Not Resuscitate order has to do with cessation of a heart beat but as long as that heart is beating and the brain shows any activity at all, a ventilator can not be removed. I learned that when my dad was on a ventilator for four months and was still on it when his heart stopped. Keeping a bedside vigil and praying for miracles is what families are allowed to do.

JMO

 

[wendybtn]

Donjeta: The statements were ones I had heard before, behind the scenes, about they are trying to get this patient transferred, the docs were or weren't going to do a teach, tube feeding, etc. But they were saying publicly, through a spokesperson of hospital attorney. And it was phrased in a very negative light toward Maui/her family. Just hearing the official talk to the MAN in this manner about any patient or family shocked me. It was not name-calling, though.

 

[jjenny]

While the mother may believe in miracles, if Jahi's brain is showing activity it would be illegal for any physician to remove her from life support. The laws pertaining to organ transplantation are quite specific for that very reason. Physicians nor anybody else get to decide when to terminate life support when a brain is showing activity.
A Do Not Resuscitate order has to do with cessation of a heart beat but as long as that heart is beating and the brain shows any activity at all, a ventilator can not be removed. I learned that when my dad was on a ventilator for four months and was still on it when his heart stopped. Keeping a bedside vigil and praying for miracles is what families are allowed to do.

JMO

This is simply not true. Family is allowed to remove life support if they want to. Plenty of cases to support that idea.
Schiavo was not brain dead, but husband was allowed to remove her feeding tube (which is considered life support) and she died after 10 days of starvation/dehydration. So family certainly can remove a ventilator if they want to.
Even hospitals can remove life support from patients if the care is considered "futile."

 

[MyBelle]

I would imagine the court will have to appoint independent specialists to evaluate Jahi themselves.... I suspect they will disagree with everything the McMath's family/lawyer has stated.

I doubt they disagree with what the chairman of Rutgers' neurosurgery department stated. He's "independent" and he also is located at the hospital that did the testing of Jahi.

JMO

Dr. Charles J. Prestigiacomo, chair of the neurological surgery department at Rutgers, said in a phone interview that the case raises questions of whether there “is something we might need to change in our basic teaching” on brain death.

“From what I know and what I’ve experienced with individuals who have been deemed brain-dead, usually the classic teaching is the body can’t tolerate and be functional for that long a period of time without there being important input from some part of the brain,” said Prestigiacomo, one of the experts who joined Dolan for the news conference.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-medical-experts-jahi-mcmath-20141002-story.html

 

[MyBelle]

This is simply not true. Family is allowed to remove life support if they want to. Plenty of cases to support that idea.
Schiavo was not brain dead, but husband was allowed to remove her feeding tube (which is considered life support) and she died after 10 days of starvation/dehydration. So family certainly can remove a ventilator if they want to.
Even hospitals can remove life support from patients if the care is considered "futile."

No, hospitals can not do that. It is you who is incorrect. Terri Schiavo's husband had to get a court order before he was allowed to remove her feeding tube but that has no bearing on this case because Jahi's mother does NOT want to remove her daughter's life support.

If the doctors believe there is little to no chance of recovery, then family and loved ones may seek a court order to remove the patient from life support (which is not necessary if the patient or someone with power of attorney has signed a "do not resuscitate," or DNR, order). In the absence of a court order or a DNR, the hospital is obligated to keep the patient alive through artificial means until further notice.

- See more at: http://healthcare.findlaw.com/patie...he-legal-difference.html#sthash.JT05t9ae.dpuf

 

[jjenny]

No, hospitals can not do that. It is you who is incorrect. Terri Schiavo's husband had to get a court order before he was allowed to remove her feeding tube but that has no bearing on this case because Jahi's mother does NOT want to remove her daughter's life support.

If the doctors believe there is little to no chance of recovery, then family and loved ones may seek a court order to remove the patient from life support (which is not necessary if the patient or someone with power of attorney has signed a "do not resuscitate," or DNR, order). In the absence of a court order or a DNR, the hospital is obligated to keep the patient alive through artificial means until further notice.

- See more at: http://healthcare.findlaw.com/patie...he-legal-difference.html#sthash.JT05t9ae.dpuf

Oh yes hospital can. Baby Sun Hudson was turned off against his mother's wishes.

Hospital turned him off (and he wasn't brain dead) because his care was considered futile.

"This isn't murder. It's mercy and it's appropriate to be merciful in that way. It's not killing, it's stopping pointless treatment," said William Winslade, a bioethicist and lawyer who is a professor at the Institute for the Medical Humanities at the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston. "It's sad this (Sun Hudson case) dragged on for so long..."

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-t...h-fatal-defect-dies-after-removal-1498268.php

 

[katydid23]

BBM. With all due respect, the only confirmation bias seems to be a reflection of your own. Where do you even get that any of the physicians lack the necessary credentials or need more experience in interpreting diagnostic tests? Dr. Shewmon is retired. Do you really think a Judge is not going to view him as an expert witness once the jurisdictional issues are resolved?

To suggest that Dr. Shewmon is somehow biased or that he or anybody else has even suggested they can "cure" brain death has no basis in facts I've seen. The point he made in the affidavit wasn't that Jahi is "cured" it is that she was never brain dead to begin with but the testing failed to detect it. I've also seen nothing that indicates the IBRF is an "iffy" organization. The Advisory Board is comprised of professionals around the world including Italy, Spain, Poland and Canada. I just don't see how it is iffy in any facet.

http://www.ibrfinc.org/advisory_board.htm

JMO

I think it is a bit of an 'iffy' organization. Many of the professionals are kind of outliers, out of the main. One example might be Del Fino.



http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/01/meadowlands_hospital_neuroscie.html

Meadowlands hospital neuroscientist fired over controversial autism treatment

 

[katydid23]

While the mother may believe in miracles, if Jahi's brain is showing activity it would be illegal for any physician to remove her from life support. The laws pertaining to organ transplantation are quite specific for that very reason. Physicians nor anybody else get to decide when to terminate life support when a brain is showing activity.
A Do Not Resuscitate order has to do with cessation of a heart beat but as long as that heart is beating and the brain shows any activity at all, a ventilator can not be removed. I learned that when my dad was on a ventilator for four months and was still on it when his heart stopped. Keeping a bedside vigil and praying for miracles is what families are allowed to do.

JMO

That does not sound correct to me. My mother took my dad off life support, and put him on 'comfort care. ' Essentially that took away his feeding tubes and oxygen tubes and heart monitors. He had brain activity but his heart was only at 10% capacity and had no ability to recover. His organs were failing. He could have 'lived' if she agreed to hook him up to heart machines etc, but she chose not to. Actually, he chose not to when they had discussed it prior to his final heart attack.

She did not need a court order to remove him from life support.

 

[MyBelle]

Oh yes hospital can. Baby Sun Hudson was turned off against his mother's wishes.

Hospital turned him off (and he wasn't brain dead) because his care was considered futile.

"This isn't murder. It's mercy and it's appropriate to be merciful in that way. It's not killing, it's stopping pointless treatment," said William Winslade, a bioethicist and lawyer who is a professor at the Institute for the Medical Humanities at the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston. "It's sad this (Sun Hudson case) dragged on for so long..."

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-t...h-fatal-defect-dies-after-removal-1498268.php

If you would read the article you linked, you will see it clearly states the hospital required a court order before it could act.

On Feb. 16, Harris County Probate Court Judge William C. McCulloch made the landmark decision to lift restrictions preventing Texas Children's from discontinuing care. However, an emergency appeal by Hudson's attorney, Mario Caballero, and a procedural error on McCulloch's part prevented the hospital from acting for four more weeks.

Texas law allows hospitals can discontinue life sustaining care, even if patient family members disagree. A doctor's recommendation must be approved by a hospital's ethics committee, and the family must be given 10 days from written notice of the decision to try and locate another facility for the patient.

Texas Children's said it contacted 40 facilities with newborn intensive care units, but none would accept Sun. Without legal delays, Sun's care would have ended Nov. 28.

 

[MyBelle]

That does not sound correct to me. My mother took my dad off life support, and put him on 'comfort care. ' Essentially that took away his feeding tubes and oxygen tubes and heart monitors. He had brain activity but his heart was only at 10% capacity and had no ability to recover. His organs were failing. He could have 'lived' if she agreed to hook him up to heart machines etc, but she chose not to. Actually, he chose not to when they had discussed it prior to his final heart attack.

She did not need a court order to remove him from life support.

But the Hospital would have needed a court order if she had not agreed. No hospital can make that decision on its own without a court order. Here is the link yet again.

In the absence of a court order or a DNR, the hospital is obligated to keep the patient alive through artificial means until further notice.

- See more at: http://healthcare.findlaw.com/patien....JT05t9ae.dpuf

 

[Hiandmighty]

While the mother may believe in miracles, if Jahi's brain is showing activity it would be illegal for any physician to remove her from life support. The laws pertaining to organ transplantation are quite specific for that very reason. Physicians nor anybody else get to decide when to terminate life support when a brain is showing activity.
A Do Not Resuscitate order has to do with cessation of a heart beat but as long as that heart is beating and the brain shows any activity at all, a ventilator can not be removed. I learned that when my dad was on a ventilator for four months and was still on it when his heart stopped. Keeping a bedside vigil and praying for miracles is what families are allowed to do.

JMO

She is legally dead. She has a death certificate.

DNR has to do with people who are currently alive. A deceased person with a death certificate is dead.

 

[Hiandmighty]

I doubt they disagree with what the chairman of Rutgers' neurosurgery department stated. He's "independent" and he also is located at the hospital that did the testing of Jahi.

JMO

Dr. Charles J. Prestigiacomo, chair of the neurological surgery department at Rutgers, said in a phone interview that the case raises questions of whether there “is something we might need to change in our basic teaching” on brain death.

“From what I know and what I’ve experienced with individuals who have been deemed brain-dead, usually the classic teaching is the body can’t tolerate and be functional for that long a period of time without there being important input from some part of the brain,” said Prestigiacomo, one of the experts who joined Dolan for the news conference.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-medical-experts-jahi-mcmath-20141002-story.html

If he was hired by Dolan or works with the Schiavo foundation, he isn't "in the eyes of the court" independent. He has chosen a side.

 

[Hiandmighty]

I do agree with everyone who says this will be interesting. The scan Dolan showed in the presser appears to be liquid in the middle. I'd like to hear what the various doctors will say.

 

[Hiandmighty]

http://docbastard.blogspot.com/2014/10/jahi-mcmath-here-we-go-again.html

Everyone can see her brain stem and mid brain is liquid. (Cause she is dead).

Ill let doc *advertiser censored* explain the rest....

 

[Hiandmighty]

You can see the middle of her brain and her brain stem are destroyed possibly leaked out her ear or something....

That is what happens when brain dead bodies are kept on machines, hormones and support... They still decompose eventually.

 

[Hiandmighty]

http://faculty.ucc.edu/biology-potter/the_brain/sld016.htm

 

[al66pine]

....Dr. Charles J. Prestigiacomo, chair of the neurological surgery department at Rutgers, said in a phone interview that the case raises questions of whether there “is something we might need to change in our basic teaching” on brain death.
“From what I know and what I’ve experienced with individuals who have been deemed brain-dead, usually the classic teaching is the body can’t tolerate and be functional for that long a period of time without there being important input from some part of the brain,” said Prestigiacomo, one of the experts who joined Dolan for the news conference." sbm bbm
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-medical-experts-jahi-mcmath-20141002-story.html

Dr. P's above stmt - after being deemed BD, bodies do not function that long - does not say much, imo.
- "Usually."
- His" knowledge and experience" I ack that is undoubtedly very, very, very extensive.
- "Classic teaching." As to what periods? 1960-70-80-90's? 2000s?

- How long is "that long"?
-Is "deemed" B-D mean declared (diagnosed?) BD per med accepted standards?
Or does his "deemed" BD include VS pt or MCS pt, as some journalists or lay ppl might use it?
During Oct. 3 presser, w. over-talking, etc. I could not follow much of what the four dr's said.

Any link to
---Dr. P's report stating tests he ran or observed and his specific conclusions re Jahi's brain functioning?
--- transcript of his stmts at presser? During presser, w. over-talking, etc. I could not follow much of what the four dr's said.

Thx in adv.