Jerry Sandusky sentenced to 30-60 years in 2012 *Appeal denied 2023*

[m1ek]

First, welcome to Websleuths.

Second, it looks like Ziegler's performance has been hugely damaging to the cause of "avenge Joe," "take off the sanctions," "it's the media." The one alumni site that I'm on has been silent.

Thanks to both of y'all - been reading for a while.

I'm on FOS and BWI (mdahmus) and the sentiment on FOS is about 70% pro-Ziegler's message but somewhat concerned about his methods; and the sentiment on BWI is about 90% pro-Ziegler's message, and 50% blaming the media (as Ziegler does) for the blowback.

It's a hard time to be a sane Penn Stater. (I got banned from BSD last year for fighting too hard with aurabass and his acolytes - Blehar and Ziegler have taken up that wing since then).

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Thanks to both of y'all - been reading for a while.

I'm on FOS and BWI (mdahmus) and the sentiment on FOS is about 70% pro-Ziegler's message but somewhat concerned about his methods; and the sentiment on BWI is about 90% pro-Ziegler's message, and 50% blaming the media (as Ziegler does) for the blowback.

It's a hard time to be a sane Penn Stater. (I got banned from BSD last year for fighting too hard with aurabass and his acolytes - Blehar and Ziegler have taken up that wing since then).

I do occasionally visit the tinfoil hat types in the Gricar case, which is my prime interest. I am use to it.

I am hoping that they will be in the minority.

Just to be clear, I think that there are some problems with Freeh's conclusion; they are overreaching, when they deal with Paterno. They are way off when dealing with Gricar. There are some bigger problems with the Thornburgh report.

You will have to tell what the acronyms stand for.

 

[m1ek]

I do occasionally visit the tinfoil hat types in the Gricar case, which is my prime interest. I am use to it.

I am hoping that they will be in the minority.

Just to be clear, I think that there are some problems with Freeh's conclusion; they are overreaching, when they deal with Paterno. They are way off when dealing with Gricar. There are some bigger problems with the Thornburgh report.

You will have to tell what the acronyms stand for.

FOS = Fight On State at scout.com
BWI = BlueWhiteIllustrated at bwi.rivals.com
BSD = blackshoediaries.com (SBNation blog)

I think that Freeh's conclusions WRT Paterno are the most likely, but not the only plausible ones that could be drawn from the evidence he's released. I try to remember that he may have had access to additional evidence which was not released for fear of screwing with the criminal trials.

Even if you take Freeh's conclusions as a given, Paterno still bears the least blame of the big 4 for what happened, but the majority of our fanbase which is completely insane on this will not accept any conclusion other than a complete exoneration for St. Joe.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

FOS = Fight On State at scout.com
BWI = BlueWhiteIllustrated at bwi.rivals.com
BSD = blackshoediaries.com (SBNation blog)

I think that Freeh's conclusions WRT Paterno are the most likely, but not the only plausible ones that could be drawn from the evidence he's released. I try to remember that he may have had access to additional evidence which was not released for fear of screwing with the criminal trials.

Even if you take Freeh's conclusions as a given, Paterno still bears the least blame of the big 4 for what happened, but the majority of our fanbase which is completely insane on this will not accept any conclusion other than a complete exoneration for St. Joe.

You are sounding like me.

Paterno neither deserves a halo, nor horns and a pitchfork. I've used the term "acquiesced." I had hoped for more from Paterno. His culpability was lower that the Three Stooges, but it wasn't zero either. I am not happy about that, and I was one one of the few here opposed to the firing at the time. My own poor judgment, in retrospect.

Sadly, in my case, there is even more. I should have been more prepared for all of this.

Thank you for the acronyms.

 

[Rlaub44]

Even if you take Freeh's conclusions as a given, Paterno still bears the least blame of the big 4 for what happened, but the majority of our fanbase which is completely insane on this will not accept any conclusion other than a complete exoneration for St. Joe.

First, welcome to another alum.

I think what you wrote above was, unfortunately, what drove the pro-Joes to such heights of irrationality. A reasonable reading of the Freeh report shows, as you indicated, that Paterno was less culpable than the other three, but the national media made him the face of failure in this scandal, even demonizing him above Sandusky himself, and the rabid fans pushed back harder.

As time has passed, both sides seem to have returned more towards the center, which is most likely closer to the truth. JVP was never the saint some liked to believe, but he also wasn't the evil mastermind of the coverup that others argued.

When the dust settles, I have a feeling the consensus will be that Joe Paterno was a mostly good and decent man, but when the time came for him to step out of his comfort zone to pursue the right outcome, he stayed silent and washed his hands of the situation.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Blackshoe Diary just came out against Ziegler: http://www.blackshoediaries.com/2013/3/28/4156212/penn-state-sandusky-ziegler-victim-2-paterno

 

[BigCat]

I can understand that. His image was that he was a big kid at heart. He'd joke around with adults too, and play pranks.

Did you realize that Sandusky was first in class in his major in college? He has a master's on top of that.

I looked at TSM's bylaws, which I think he wrote, or certainly guided. They look like they were done professionally, and are some of the better constructed ones that I've seen.

Despite the image, he was a very bright man. Twisted, but bright. That was a dangerous combination.

I'm been thinking about this post for a few days. My first thought was while Sandusky is smart, Paterno was smarter. Paterno graduated with a degree in literature from an Ivy League school (I believe Sandusky was a PE major). In addition, Paterno grew up in Brooklyn, so he was definitely superior to Sandusky in street smarts. It's hard to believe he didn't suspect something was abnormal about Sandusky's behavior.

What makes it so difficult to determine if he had any suspicions is that I don't believe he would have done anything to him if he did suspect Sandusky was a pedophile. When Ziegler asked Sandusky if he thought Paterno would let him coach if he suspected as much, he answered:

"If he absolutely thought I was [a pedophile], I'd say no. If he had a suspicion, I don't know the answer to that."

That sounds right based on what we know of Paterno. He was all about giving HIS players and coaches the benefit of the doubt. Paterno was a loyal person. Loyalty is an admirable quality. It's more of an old world value, however. The modern world values enlightened self-interest: once someone becomes a liability, you cut them loose.

I think it's very probable that his loyalty to Sandusky cost Paterno his reputation. Now, the Paterno zealots want to drag down the university out of misguided loyalty to JoePa. The wise move would be to cut Paterno loose and "move on." Restoring the Paterno legacy is a Lost Cause at this point.

However, I don't have to move on, so it's OK with me if they want to keep sleuthing. :smile:

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

I'm been thinking about this post for a few days. My first thought was while Sandusky is smart, Paterno was smarter. Paterno graduated with a degree in literature from an Ivy League school (I believe Sandusky was a PE major). In addition, Paterno grew up in Brooklyn, so he was definitely superior to Sandusky in street smarts. It's hard to believe he didn't suspect something was abnormal about Sandusky's behavior.

First, I would not say smarter. Paterno's majored in literature and didn't have an advanced degree. Literature isn't technical, like the physical sciences nor is it empirical, like the social sciences.

The image that Sandusky presented, "Ole Jer, a big kid at heart," could fool a lot of people, especially people that had no idea what "grooming" was.

That sounds right based on what we know of Paterno. He was all about giving HIS players and coaches the benefit of the doubt. Paterno was a loyal person. Loyalty is an admirable quality. It's more of an old world value, however. The modern world values enlightened self-interest: once someone becomes a liability, you cut them loose.

There is something else. Paterno was a team player. That might have come with coaching. Even when Spanier and Curley suggested retirement, and Paterno, threatened to stop raising funds, this showed up. Within 9 months, he was talking about retiring if his record didn't improve.

I think it's very probable that his loyalty to Sandusky cost Paterno his reputation. Now, the Paterno zealots want to drag down the university out of misguided loyalty to JoePa. The wise move would be to cut Paterno loose and "move on." Restoring the Paterno legacy is a Lost Cause at this point.

There is a long legacy there, and those parts might become a future focus. I do object to the zealots canonizing him. There was good and bad in thay legacy.

 

[BigCat]

First, I would not say smarter. Paterno's majored in literature and didn't have an advanced degree. Literature isn't technical, like the physical sciences nor is it empirical, like the social sciences.

Studying literature gives a person insight into human psychology and motivation, increasing one's social IQ. Sandusky, in contrast, was socially retarded. I don't remember reading one reference in his book to an adult woman, besides his mother and his wife. He constantly refers to the boys as his "friends." I suspect he didn't have many adult ones.

The image that Sandusky presented, "Ole Jer, a big kid at heart," could fool a lot of people, especially people that had no idea what "grooming" was.

He wasn't the only one who fooled a lot of people. Jay Paterno said that his father was "kind of dumb like a fox."

There is something else. Paterno was a team player. That might have come with coaching. Even when Spanier and Curley suggested retirement, and Paterno, threatened to stop raising funds, this showed up. Within 9 months, he was talking about retiring if his record didn't improve

I disagree. Joe Paterno was not a team player (Just ask Vicky Triponey). Paterno was The Coach. Kind of like Douglas MacArthur was The General.

There is a long legacy there, and those parts might become a future focus. I do object to the zealots canonizing him. There was good and bad in thay legacy.

I think you're right. It could be a good twenty years before we even begin to gain some perspective on his legacy. There will be good and bad,;how much of either, I have no idea. Only time will tell.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Triponey, in this case, was the one that was not a team player. She bucked not only Paterno, but the other administrators.

I really cannot agree with you regarding literature, as opposed to the social or even physical sciences.

 

[Twindad]

I think there is an all things Joe Paterno thread.

 

[BigCat]

I think there is an all things Joe Paterno thread.

Yes, and in it is an excellent 2 page discussion on the 98 meeting which had nothing to do with Paterno. Such is life.

 

[BigCat]

Triponey, in this case, was the one that was not a team player. She bucked not only Paterno, but the other administrators.

I really cannot agree with you regarding literature, as opposed to the social or even physical sciences.

Triponey bucked The Coach. The team players -- the administrators -- fell in line with the coach's position.

Obama wrote book; Mitt Romney was an English major. Lincoln read MacBeth religiously. Churchill was a brilliant writer. I could go on. Sociologists and chemist, on the other hand, don't become politicians.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Triponey bucked The Coach. The team players -- the administrators -- fell in line with the coach's position.

Yet there was a team, which Triponey bucked.

Obama wrote book; Mitt Romney was an English major. Lincoln read MacBeth religiously. Churchill was a brilliant writer. I could go on. Sociologists and chemist, on the other hand, don't become politicians.

Margaret Thatcher, possibly the longest serving elected leader in the Western world since WWII, was a chemist.

Obama and Romney both had advanced degrees; Churchill wrote history, primarily.

At the time this scandal broke, I had written more than 50 articles in my field (that does not count any blogging), a few that touched on psychological aspects. I had a degree from one of the top 50 schools in the US. I had a background in public education. I could not have identified what "grooming" was in a pedophilia context.

Why? Because, I am not interested in deviate psychology and I'm not interested in "grooming" children.

Sandusky liked to project the image of being a "big kid at heart." He also liked to project the image of being a church going, charitable, person. He convinced the community that this who he was for probably 40 years. He was both highly intelligent and hugely deceptive. It was a dangerous combination.

 

[BigCat]

Margaret Thatcher, possibly the longest serving elected leader in the Western world since WWII, was a chemist.

Obama and Romney both had advanced degrees; Churchill wrote history, primarily.

At the time this scandal broke, I had written more than 50 articles in my field (that does not count any blogging), a few that touched on psychological aspects. I had a degree from one of the top 50 schools in the US. I had a background in public education. I could not have identified what "grooming" was in a pedophilia context.

Why? Because, I am not interested in deviate psychology and I'm not interested in "grooming" children.

Sandusky liked to project the image of being a "big kid at heart." He also liked to project the image of being a church going, charitable, person. He convinced the community that this who he was for probably 40 years. He was both highly intelligent and hugely deceptive. It was a dangerous combination.

Respectfully snipped

I don't disagree with what you have written. I meant only to suggest a literature major is more likely to recognize grooming behavior than someone with a doctorate in mechanical engineering from MIT. There is more to learn in the books of Poe, Faulkner, and Dostoevsky concerning abnormal psychology than in a thousand textbooks. And what Ivy League alum with a degree in literature didn't read Lolita in the 1950's?

All that being said, I don't believe Paterno suspected Sandusky was a pedophile prior to 98, nor do I think he should have, based on what we know.

Now, post-98, that's a different discussion.

 

[Rlaub44]

Sandusky liked to project the image of being a "big kid at heart." He also liked to project the image of being a church going, charitable, person. He convinced the community that this who he was for probably 40 years. He was both highly intelligent and hugely deceptive. It was a dangerous combination.

Remember that his pastor and members of his church were very visibly in his and Dottie's corner before and during the trial. Plus, as we have discussed, despite Ms. Genovese reportedly telling someone that they had to tell Jerry to "back off" of some kids in the past, none of the trained professionals at TSM ever connected his behaviors with pedophilic grooming.

He apparently had developed a very convincing persona, one which fooled a lot of people who had a better chance of recognizing his true colors than an elderly football coach, no matter how street smart.

All that being said, I don't believe Paterno suspected Sandusky was a pedophile prior to 98, nor do I think he should have, based on what we know.

Now, post-98, that's a different discussion.

I would give you post-2001, but I still think we are ascribing far too much awareness to Paterno in 1998. The professionals with access to all of the information didn't suspect Sandusky was a pedophile at that time; it seems unfair to expect greater insight from Paterno with no training and less information.

 

[HMSHood]

Yet there was a team, which Triponey bucked.




Margaret Thatcher, possibly the longest serving elected leader in the Western world since WWII, was a chemist.

Obama and Romney both had advanced degrees; Churchill wrote history, primarily.

At the time this scandal broke, I had written more than 50 articles in my field (that does not count any blogging), a few that touched on psychological aspects. I had a degree from one of the top 50 schools in the US. I had a background in public education. I could not have identified what "grooming" was in a pedophilia context.

Why? Because, I am not interested in deviate psychology and I'm not interested in "grooming" children.

Sandusky liked to project the image of being a "big kid at heart." He also liked to project the image of being a church going, charitable, person. He convinced the community that this who he was for probably 40 years. He was both highly intelligent and hugely deceptive. It was a dangerous combination.

I notice that immaturity is a common trait in many ranging from bullies, child molesters, swindlers, serial killers, mass murderers, and terrorists. Immature people are very small minded. Immaturity is a pathological characteristic of Casey Anthony, Lori Drew, Adam Lanza, and Seung-Hui Cho. Immaturity ran very deep in them. Lanza and Cho were not extremely deceptive, while Anthony and Drew were. You can even see immaturity in their handwriting, especially in Anthony and Drew.

Immaturity and narcissism comes hand in hand. Generally, narcissists act like children and are often easily angered. However with Sandusky, I do not think he has an angry personality. Anthony, Drew, Cho, and Lanza had an angry personality and were consumed by it.

Narcissists are generally sociable, but not always (think Osama bin Laden or Fred Phelps as they were more reclusive). Sandusky, Anthony, and Drew are sociable and need to be around people. Anthony and Drew are in your face type and are seen as annoying. Drew is the bragging type, not a characteristic of Anthony and to some degree Sandusky. Cho and Lanza were not sociable at all as they were consumed by paranoia. Anthony and Drew prefer being liked; they want people to like them. Sandusky wants to be respected by others and exhibits grandeur that borders into megalomania as he has a cult of character.

They often have enablers surround them. Narcissists thrive with enablers and like to have "yes" men or women. Jerry Sandusky had Penn State, The Second Mile, and Central Valley public school systems that could of done more. Casey Anthony had Cindy and George Anthony. Cindy Anthony was the enabler for Casey. Lori Drew had people who blindly followed her as she was the eldest adult and a husband who is likely dependent. Adam Lanza had his mother, Nancy Lanza provide him guns as a way to connect.

Those kind of people who present themselves as a church going and charitable person are the most dangerous.

What do this all mean? Jerry Sandusky, Casey Anthony, Lori Drew, Adam Lanza, and Seung-Hui Cho have a "tree brain", which makes them small minded and have tunnel vision. There is a book written by Iain McGilchrist called The Master and His Emissary, who talks about the divided brain.
Right-Forest (Big Picture)
Left-Tree (Tunnel Vision)

The left brain is becoming more dominant. It explains why we have pettiness, bureaucracies, bullying, religious fanaticism, terrorism, and genocide. Iain McGilchrist thinks the left brain is becoming more dominant nowadays.

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master_and_His_Emissary[/ame]

Dual Brain/Double Brain Theory
http://www.julianjaynes.org/related-articles_dualbrain.php

Speculations on the Neurocomputational Foundations of Consciousness
http://philosophyandpsychology.com/?p=1706

 

[nittanylioness234]

Looking at the (lack of pro-framing) comments, I think Ziegler is now seen as a disaster. This might have been the worst possible thing to happen.

...which is most likely why the Paternos want to distance themselves from him. I can't blame them for that.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The Sandusky case is still open, according to the State Police: http://www.centredaily.com/2013/05/08/3609733/pa-police-commissioner-jerry-sandusky.html

 

[HMSHood]

The Sandusky case is still open, according to the State Police: http://www.centredaily.com/2013/05/08/3609733/pa-police-commissioner-jerry-sandusky.html

I wonder if Sandusky will face more charges. I also wonder if they probably find past complaints going far back as Sandusky being a teen. It is far from over. :stormingmad: