JLM: 2002 Rape Allegations at Liberty University

[Priester]

I hope this the appropriate thread for my question.
Where did we as a society go wrong with Jesse?
I can think of so many missed opportunities to have avoided creating a serial killer.
Is it OK to somehow facilitate the passage of a student all the way through high school when he supposedly reads at elementary school level?
I say it is not fair to the student to tell him he has earned a high school diploma when he hasn't.
Then the sub-par student is welcomed into a college based on his skill in football.
Except for a very select group of highly talented men, football is not the road to a fulfilling career.
It must have been very frustrating to be struggling in class after class to do the work and to take the tests when it is far above your ability.
Is anyone else seeing the seeds for the great rage that this young man developed in college?

 

[littlemaybaby]

I hope this the appropriate thread for my question.
Where did we as a society go wrong with Jesse?
I can think of so many missed opportunities to have avoided creating a serial killer.
Is it OK to somehow facilitate the passage of a student all the way through high school when he supposedly reads at elementary school level?
I say it is not fair to the student to tell him he has earned a high school diploma when he hasn't.
Then the sub-par student is welcomed into a college based on his skill in football.
Except for a very select group of highly talented men, football is not the road to a fulfilling career.
It must have been very frustrating to be struggling in class after class to do the work and to take the tests when it is far above your ability.
Is anyone else seeing the seeds for the great rage that this young man developed in college?

There are A LOT of sub-par students who get through high school and college exclusively on athletic talent without ending up as serial rapists/killers. On the flip side, I would imagine a fair number of serial rapists/killers weren't dumb jocks filled with rage because academics were too hard for them.

I don't think society failed him at all. I think society kept giving him chance after chance after chance. Society failed Hannah Graham, Morgan Harrington, the 2005 Fairfax victim, the 2003 CNU victim, the 2002 LU victim and who knows how many other women.

 

[Piaget]

I appreciate your viewpoint. Certainly if he is guilty, he deserves to be held accountable and punished, no excuses. But, yes, i can imagine a kid yfed on the dreams of our society having high hopes that his one talent, football, would lead to glory. The disappointment that followed. The difficulty of growing up in a place that seemed to be constantly full of privileged young people who seemed to have things come more easily. The confusion of lovely girls that were look/but-don't-touch. Even the readiness with which some writers here have been wiling to dismiss him as dumb, only a kick and thus less than human. Their tendency to view his familial cultural background as odd just because it is different form theirs. I think all young people growing up in our media-saturated world have a hard time feeling good about who they are when everyone seems to be managing their "brand" so aggressively online to make their lives seem effortlessly beautiful. As I said, no excuse for evil, but another tragedy of its own.

 

[Piaget]

Not "kick"-- meant dismissed as a dumb jock

 

[puttincomputers]

Piaget, I agree for the most part. I come a from a very strict background and it is hard for my brain to wrap itself around the freedom that 99% of the posters on this board were brought up with. I was once a Mennonite and in that culture guys aren't even supposed to look at a girl unless they are watching how they interact with other people.

 

[littlemaybaby]

I appreciate your viewpoint. Certainly if he is guilty, he deserves to be held accountable and punished, no excuses. But, yes, i can imagine a kid yfed on the dreams of our society having high hopes that his one talent, football, would lead to glory. The disappointment that followed. The difficulty of growing up in a place that seemed to be constantly full of privileged young people who seemed to have things come more easily. The confusion of lovely girls that were look/but-don't-touch. Even the readiness with which some writers here have been wiling to dismiss him as dumb, only a kick and thus less than human. Their tendency to view his familial cultural background as odd just because it is different form theirs. I think all young people growing up in our media-saturated world have a hard time feeling good about who they are when everyone seems to be managing their "brand" so aggressively online to make their lives seem effortlessly beautiful. As I said, no excuse for evil, but another tragedy of its own.

I don't necessarily disagree with you. I just have more sympathy for his victims than I have for him. I'm not saying he didn't have a rough time with what life threw in his direction, but a lot of people have it a lot harder. How many high school athletes have dreams of being a college athlete and never get there? He got a lot further than a lot of athletes do and was given the chance to play at two different colleges - despite the circumstances surrounding when he left LU. If anything, shouldn't his second chance at CNU been his chance to redeem himself? To keep pursuing his dream of football? He wasn't even there a full semester before being accused of sexual assault.

I am not an African American male. Nor was I ever more of an athlete than a student. So I don't know how hard it was for him to grow up . . . Did he get as many chances as some people around him? Of course not. Did he get more chances than a lot of people get? Yes. Isn't that true for almost everyone?

Edit - My comments obviously make the assumption that he is actually guilty, and I do think we need to wait and see evidence to determine how many crimes he is actually linked to and convicted of.

 

[GhostGhost]

'

He was privileged, full scholarships, people wanting to help him, people admiring him.

Let's not use TV stereotypes. There are plenty of poor people that don't look like him. More in raw numbers, in fact.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

. . . and here is an example of how it continues on to this very day: "Convicted rapist who was expelled from Air Force Academy is now a college football star in Mississippi"

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-football-star-Mississippi.html#ixzz3HaU6fIXw
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[jamicat]

Date rape has become a central issue at many colleges. The problem with rape is that its very definition in the context of a "date" is that verifying consent is impossible. We don't question theft until another PERSON is blamed. One had better have danged good proof to accuse someone of theft and go after that person. The same with rape, and it almost always happpens in the absence of video or witness so its one person's word against the other. The system is set up to side with the accused. So when it comes down to that , the courts are forced to side with the accused.

I beieve that many cases of rape that cannot be proven, that the DAs do not want to touch because they know it's a loser, are indeed violations. But, yes, there can be abuse where someone would make a false accusation. Scorned women for example. Guy is done with sex, done with the woman and says some crude things, and clearly thinks lowly of her. Or they have sex, and it gets too rough, and it' s clear the guy could not care less. Guy makes jokes, tells his buddies even before he leaves the area. I've known some very hurt women in such cases, and if it weren't so painful and serious for all involved to claim rape, they would have. They've out and out said so. IMO, even when a rape or an accusation of it is not a case that can be won in court, the evidence is simply not there, the accusaiton should be filed so it is on record. This way even cases that do not go to court can remain on record, and be useful in the future.

The little that has come out about the Libery U rape allegation indicates that the woman was also physically hurt. That she levied the accusation at that school is to me telling, that it was a case of fairly serious injury. I am thankful that she went through the trouble to make her accusations a matter of record.

Had that alone been the only thing that came up in JM's past, though it would be a line item to keep in mind, someting 14 years ago, at a school with the strict rep about such relationships, it wouldn't have held the importance it does. That instead of learning from what happened, being v-e-r-y careful about these things, he ends up not only with another such accusation right aftewards, but has the reputaion of being pushy, forward, looking for prey. Not the sort of rep that someone who was unfairly accused of rape or inappropriate behavior in that sort of thing with the consequences it had would want to have. Those consequences were not severe enough to change JM's behavior.

 

[Charlie Chan]

There are A LOT of sub-par students who get through high school and college exclusively on athletic talent without ending up as serial rapists/killers. On the flip side, I would imagine a fair number of serial rapists/killers weren't dumb jocks filled with rage because academics were too hard for them.

I don't think society failed him at all. I think society kept giving him chance after chance after chance. Society failed Hannah Graham, Morgan Harrington, the 2005 Fairfax victim, the 2003 CNU victim, the 2002 LU victim and who knows how many other women.

Amen sister.

 

[ThinkHard]

I had a friend at a big ten university get raped during a date with a D1 basketball player. He attacked her with a knife, she ended up in the ER.

The school told her she would have a hard time pursuing charges against him due to his status as an athlete, and that they (the school) weren't interested in helping her.

She transferred to a small college, dropped the charges.

He went on to play in the NBA.

It definitely happens

God its so sad isn't it! I too had an experience in college as a freshmen with someone I knew, the weird part is it took me years to realize or admit to myself that I had actually been raped. I guess I somehow sort of blamed myself...the weird part is, I was pretending to be asleep the entire time!....what the heck did I think about pretending to be asleep was consent! I think its a very confusing thing to happen to you, especially when they are known to you....its almost like you don't want to stir the pot..or cause distress amongst your friends...make them have to take sides...etc etc etc...I can understand how this is even stronger in a college bubble where everyone you know, seems to know everyone else. I will say though these charges and allegations against JLM makes me realize how something needs to change about how comfortable women feel about reporting these crimes, I can't help but wonder how many serial rapists started out with their first crime being "date rape".

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Date rape has become a central issue at many colleges. The problem with rape is that its very definition in the context of a "date" is that verifying consent is impossible. We don't question theft until another PERSON is blamed. One had better have danged good proof to accuse someone of theft and go after that person. The same with rape, and it almost always happpens in the absence of video or witness so its one person's word against the other. The system is set up to side with the accused. So when it comes down to that , the courts are forced to side with the accused.

I beieve that many cases of rape that cannot be proven, that the DAs do not want to touch because they know it's a loser, are indeed violations. But, yes, there can be abuse where someone would make a false accusation. Scorned women for example. Guy is done with sex, done with the woman and says some crude things, and clearly thinks lowly of her. Or they have sex, and it gets too rough, and it' s clear the guy could not care less. Guy makes jokes, tells his buddies even before he leaves the area. I've known some very hurt women in such cases, and if it weren't so painful and serious for all involved to claim rape, they would have. They've out and out said so. IMO, even when a rape or an accusation of it is not a case that can be won in court, the evidence is simply not there, the accusaiton should be filed so it is on record. This way even cases that do not go to court can remain on record, and be useful in the future.

The little that has come out about the Libery U rape allegation indicates that the woman was also physically hurt. That she levied the accusation at that school is to me telling, that it was a case of fairly serious injury. I am thankful that she went through the trouble to make her accusations a matter of record.

Had that alone been the only thing that came up in JM's past, though it would be a line item to keep in mind, , someting 14 years ago, at a school with the strict rep about such relationships, it wouldn't have held the importance it does. That instead of learning from what happened, being v-e-r-y careful about these things, he ends up not only with another such accusation right aftewards, but has the reputaion of being pushy, forward, looking for prey. Not the sort of rep that someone who was unfairly accused of rape or inappropriate behavior in that sort of thing with the consequences it had would want to have. Those consequences were not severe enough to change JM's behavior.

Not sure, jamicat, if you were commenting on my above post about the AF Academy football player being picked up by another college in spite of having been convicted of rape and expelled from the AFA or not. I didn't see anything in that article about date rape but perhaps you're right as no facts of the assault were provided. Nevertheless, date rape (which is often interchanged with the phrase acquaintance rape) is every bit, if not more, as destructive as stranger rape ~ and much more confusing. Researchers say date rape affects victims similarly to stranger rape, although the failure of others to acknowledge and take the rape seriously can make it harder for victims to recover.

The victim is twice raped when the authorities (schools) don't stand behind them. And when other colleges accept the super football star rapist, in spite of his well documented past and conviction, as compared to the female whose entire life has been derailed ~ it seems it is time for some oversight and for more severe consequences ~ regardless of whatever their sportsmen abilities may be!

Wish I knew how to go about changing this!

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

God its so sad isn't it! I too had an experience in college as a freshmen with someone I knew, the weird part is it took me years to realize or admit to myself that I had actually been raped. I guess I somehow sort of blamed myself...the weird part is, I was pretending to be asleep the entire time!....what the heck did I think about pretending to be asleep was consent! I think its a very confusing thing to happen to you, especially when they are known to you....its almost like you don't want to stir the pot..or cause distress amongst your friends...make them have to take sides...etc etc etc...I can understand how this is even stronger in a college bubble where everyone you know, seems to know everyone else. I will say though these charges and allegations against JLM makes me realize how something needs to change about how comfortable women feel about reporting these crimes, I can't help but wonder how many serial rapists started out with their first crime being "date rape".

OMGosh, ThinkHard, I am so sorry this happened to you. One of the things that I've recently read emphasized that the women who were assaulted in acquaintance rape situations find it difficult to comprehend that they have been raped. And, as I'm sure you are aware, almost all women keep assessing the situation and manage to find some (false!!!!) blame for themselves. You are right, something needs to change!

"American clinical psychologist David Lisak, the study's author and an expert in date rape, says that serial rapists account for 90% of all campus rapes, with an average of six rapes each. Lisak argues that his and similar findings conflict sharply with the widely-held view that college rapes are typically perpetrated by "a basically “decent” young man who, were it not for too much alcohol and too little communication, would never do such a thing," with the evidence actually suggesting that the vast majority of rapes, including date rapes, are committed by serial, violent predators."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape#cite_note-:0-8 (I know, I know.)

 

[Emaa]

Not sure, jamicat, if you were commenting on my above post about the AF Academy football player being picked up by another college in spite of having been convicted of rape and expelled from the AFA or not. I didn't see anything in that article about date rape but perhaps you're right as no facts of the assault were provided. Nevertheless, date rape (which is often interchanged with the phrase acquaintance rape) is every bit, if not more, as destructive as stranger rape ~ and much more confusing. Researchers say date rape affects victims similarly to stranger rape, although the failure of others to acknowledge and take the rape seriously can make it harder for victims to recover.

The victim is twice raped when the authorities (schools) don't stand behind them. And when other colleges accept the super football star rapist, in spite of his well documented past and conviction, as compared to the female whose entire life has been derailed ~ it seems it is time for some oversight and for more severe consequences ~ regardless of whatever their sportsmen abilities may be!

Wish I knew how to go about changing this!

One way (and this is not directed at you) is we have to start referring to rape as rape. Period.

Not date rape. Not marital rape. Not stranger rape. Not legitimate rape.

Rape.

 

[ThinkHard]

One way (and this is not directed at you) is we have to start referring to rape as rape. Period.

Not date rape. Not marital rape. Not stranger rape. Not legitimate rape.

Rape.

Great point!

ETA: I know one of the biggest points of confusion for me was trying to understand how the guy who undressed me and raped me while I pretended to be asleep, could be the same guy I considered a friend, a goofy, fun, friend. It was this Jekyll and Hyde, and it confused me, so I guess it was really hard to think that anyone would believe me, or believe he was capable. What he did seemed so in conflict with the friend I knew. So I just of course pretended nothing happened, still hung out with him and other friends, far be it from be to rock the boat. I think if we change the conversation around rape, and emphasize that rape is often a serial offense and not just a good guy making poor choices under the influence....then maybe girls in college can get to a place where they believe the people around them WILL take them seriously, and not just try to downplay the situation or the guys actions.

FWIW: though I'd stayed "friendly" with this guy, I'd learned to avoid him late night...that is until sr yr, when in a drunk state he cornered me in the back stairwell of a three decker during a house party...he kept groping me and trying to kiss me, and I was saying stop stop and pushing him away, and trying to get based him, because his body was blocking to door. Luckily my best guy friend and a friend of this guy, heard, and opened the door and was like what is going on....that night he saw this guy in this altered, predatory state....my best guy friend had been in the same house the night this guy raped me...it didn't take him long to put it all together. ONLY because he had actually observed first hand, this drastic change in behavior of this guy....if he hadn't seen it first hand he never would have believed it! And I was his good friend! I also just want to add...because maybe this is part of serial offender patterns, but when my guy friend, call this guy out the next day when he was sober...he was incredibly remorseful, almost as if he had no recollection of what he was doing to me while intoxicated. From that point on he was always really embarrassed and uneasy around me, and apologized over and over and over, to the point I told him to stop and let it go. Weird. Maybe felt guilty he was caught? Who knows.

We certainly have a culture on our college campuses in this country that gives men plenty of room to misbehave in an extension of boys being boys....and it certainly minimizes the chances a girl feels like she"ll be taken seriously, or even that the crime itself will be taken seriously. It sometimes seems to me that guys are far more willing to believe that a girl has regrets then their buddy committed rape. If you feel like everyone will be against you, or mad at you for getting someone in trouble, and you are already trying to deal with the even itself....thinking of all that extra crap....lets just say we have yet to create environments on campuses that make women feel like they have any power in these situations both while t's happening, and after the event.

I think this is huge...because I don't think its just about protecting coeds, I'd be willing to bet for many the rapes they commit in college, its just the beginning for these guys. If we were tougher on rape crimes from the start, perhaps we could reduce the number of victims they have a chance to get their hands on.

And I think colleges need to have a ZERO tolerance policy! Like HS and bullying. And I think all sexual assaults should be reported to LE as a mandate, and not just kept within the school to handle.

 

[jamicat]

One way (and this is not directed at you) is we have to start referring to rape as rape. Period.

Not date rape. Not marital rape. Not stranger rape. Not legitimate rape.

Rape.

I like that. One reason the "date" adjective is used is because too many people think of rape in a narrow term like what happened with the Fairfax victim You are walking down the street, walk into your home, and some one attacks you and rapes you. Those episodes are usually reported to LE as the assault component is so clear. Even if someone goes through such ane experience without being raped, the attack would likely be reported. You report things like that. If you know the person; he's a relative, fellow employee, friend, someone you werer dating, are dating, a SO, the odds start going down whether this is going to be reported. But, such cases, when it's a stranger and happens as so described above, are the most viable cases in terms of successful prosecution, with odds diminishing with the familarity of the perp to the victim.

With more attention given, that rape can and actually more often occurs with the perp being someone the victim knows and in date type situations, I am hoping that the adjectives can be removed. I agree that it's all rape.

l

 

[FindHG]

Gov. McAuliffe holds summit addressing sexual violence on college campuses Va university leaders, officials, students address consent, awareness, policies
by David Schutte and Louisa Luranc | Nov 03 2014 | 57 minutes ago

Dean of Students Allen Groves, who sits on the response committee, said his group discussed national regulations for addressing sexual assault.
“We discussed current federal legal requirements and then discussed the issues that are in the forefront of this issue on college campuses,” Groves said. “These include the definition of consent, mandatory reporting by faculty, the various models for investigation, hearing and sanctioning, and climate surveys.”... McAuliffe has also spoken with the parents of second-year College student Hannah Graham, who are sharing their opinion on solving the issue of sexual assault on college campuses. McAuliffe has said he will not disclose the details of their discussion.

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/articl...ddressing-sexual-violence-on-college-campuses

 

[ThinkHard]

Gov. McAuliffe holds summit addressing sexual violence on college campuses Va university leaders, officials, students address consent, awareness, policies
by David Schutte and Louisa Luranc | Nov 03 2014 | 57 minutes ago

Dean of Students Allen Groves, who sits on the response committee, said his group discussed national regulations for addressing sexual assault.
“We discussed current federal legal requirements and then discussed the issues that are in the forefront of this issue on college campuses,” Groves said. “These include the definition of consent, mandatory reporting by faculty, the various models for investigation, hearing and sanctioning, and climate surveys.”... McAuliffe has also spoken with the parents of second-year College student Hannah Graham, who are sharing their opinion on solving the issue of sexual assault on college campuses. McAuliffe has said he will not disclose the details of their discussion.

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/articl...ddressing-sexual-violence-on-college-campuses

Ha! Not like they haven't had these "discussions" before....and policy changes were made...ON PAPER....but just cause they can talk the talk....doesn't convince me they walk the walk....it doesn't mean that even with reporting they won't still seriously pressure women to "do the right thing"...for UVA

 

[Tugela]

Date rape has become a central issue at many colleges. The problem with rape is that its very definition in the context of a "date" is that verifying consent is impossible. We don't question theft until another PERSON is blamed. One had better have danged good proof to accuse someone of theft and go after that person. The same with rape, and it almost always happpens in the absence of video or witness so its one person's word against the other. The system is set up to side with the accused. So when it comes down to that , the courts are forced to side with the accused.

I beieve that many cases of rape that cannot be proven, that the DAs do not want to touch because they know it's a loser, are indeed violations. But, yes, there can be abuse where someone would make a false accusation. Scorned women for example. Guy is done with sex, done with the woman and says some crude things, and clearly thinks lowly of her. Or they have sex, and it gets too rough, and it' s clear the guy could not care less. Guy makes jokes, tells his buddies even before he leaves the area. I've known some very hurt women in such cases, and if it weren't so painful and serious for all involved to claim rape, they would have. They've out and out said so. IMO, even when a rape or an accusation of it is not a case that can be won in court, the evidence is simply not there, the accusaiton should be filed so it is on record. This way even cases that do not go to court can remain on record, and be useful in the future.

The little that has come out about the Libery U rape allegation indicates that the woman was also physically hurt. That she levied the accusation at that school is to me telling, that it was a case of fairly serious injury. I am thankful that she went through the trouble to make her accusations a matter of record.

Had that alone been the only thing that came up in JM's past, though it would be a line item to keep in mind, someting 14 years ago, at a school with the strict rep about such relationships, it wouldn't have held the importance it does. That instead of learning from what happened, being v-e-r-y careful about these things, he ends up not only with another such accusation right aftewards, but has the reputaion of being pushy, forward, looking for prey. Not the sort of rep that someone who was unfairly accused of rape or inappropriate behavior in that sort of thing with the consequences it had would want to have. Those consequences were not severe enough to change JM's behavior.

The system is not set up to side with the accused, in general once an accusation has been made it is almost always believed irrespective of whether it happened or not. The issue however is corroboration of an allegation. If there is corroboration in the form of verifiable injuries or witnesses, and a complaint is made immediately, the case will usually proceed (and likely end up in a conviction) provided that the victim goes through with it and does not decide to walk away. In most cases where charges end up not being pursued or dropped, either the victim will not testify in court or the complaint is made some time after the event and there is no corroboration of the accusation.

False accusations do happen btw, and are not uncommon. Studies on the subject suggest a false report rate between 2 and 20% IIRC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape). The actual rate is likely somewhere inbetween those two numbers and depends on the circumstances of the case. An assault by a stranger likely has a very low false report rate, while accusations that are made long after the event likely have a high false report rate.

 

[ThinkHard]

1.) Regarding not pursuing charges...I'd like to know how many times in these cases the school pressured them not to pursue charges, and or did not provide them with the support they needed to pursue charges.

2.) if rape is often his word vs her word, how do we know that percentage isn't just based on the assumption the women was lying? Do they have proof she was lying? I'm curious about what those statistics are basing their numbers on. Women do not commonly go around accusing people of rape if it did not happen. As a victim there is a huge sense of shame. And accusations are another huge stress. Few people are going to go through that experience unless they were actually raped!

I would be willing to bet there is a much higher percentage of women who NEVER report their rape, vs women who have made false accusations.