Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[Whaleshark]

The healed vaginal trauma and lack of hymen demonstrate that it was painful.

In my case, it was painful even though I retained my hymen (I clearly remember the pain and blood of having adult sex for the first time).

BDI implies the following -

The healed sexual trauma was unreported or unnoticed by PR, and not spoken of by JBR

JBR willingly went into a cold dark basement with her abusive older brother who had already hurt her, at least once

BR also stopped off on the way (unheard) to make his sister a snack and a cup of tea (why?)

The parents tried to "protect" one child by "finishing off" another.

The BDI theory assumes they are of the mindset to protect their son/reputation, yet the staging and garrotting of JBR implies that their mindset was EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE.

The staging was carried out while JBR was still alive, possibly moaning, seizing, vomiting...it takes a complete psychopath to go about staging when your little baby is in her death throes, then FINISH THE JOB and add some sexual injury into the mix as well (the final indignity).

If my cat catches a mouse, I either lock her outside with it to finish it off, or stick the poor little thing in the rubbish and try to forget about it.

If they were staging to cover for JR, the simplest and easiest way would be to dump the body ELSEWHERE, not leave it in the house...in BR's playroom, of all places.

BDI makes no sense at all, no matter how you slice it.

Again, the wine cellar is a hide the body spot, not necessarily a molestation spot. Again.
Some BDI theories assume the parents finished her off with the garrote, some consider it only staging, some consider only the stick part staging, and some consider that the strangulation was done by Burke...

So, no, every BDI theory is NOT the same, and does not assume all those same things... Only those who assume those particular things in their personal BDI theory assume that....

Not all theories the same; not all or nothing.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Again, the wine cellar is a hide the body spot, not necessarily a molestation spot. Again.
Some BDI theories assume the parents finished her off with the garrote, some consider it only staging, some consider only the stick part staging, and some consider that the strangulation was done by Burke...

So, no, every BDI theory is NOT the same, and does not assume all those same things... Only those who assume those particular things in their personal BDI theory assume that....

Not all theories the same; not all or nothing.

Let's strip it back to known fact then....and actually go through a scenario.

So Burke hits his sister and cracks her skull.

Where did he do this? How was she moved?

Let's assume it was in her bedroom, or his.

Somehow PR woke and walked in on BR actually raping his sister who was having seizures, and vomiting, and unconscious.

What is the very first thing a parent would do?

Stop the rape, certainly. Witness their "much loved" baby girl bleeding and unconscious.

The very first reaction from any normal parent would be to save their dying daughter. They would call 911. They would not think "gee, well JB is nearly dead, let's finish her off, and Burke, go to your room!"

The absolute first thing they would do would be to go into denial that their son had done ANYTHING like that, and try to save their daughter.

They didn't.

Instead, they spent an hour and a half what - wandering around the house, staging, writing ransom notes, all while a (possibly saveable) JB was slipping away?

Would they turn a rape/assault into a MURDER to protect their son?

Oh she isn't dead yet, my goodness, lets strangle her, oh and while we are at it, get a paintbrush and abuse her even further?

Any parent who would behave in this way is psychotic. Killing one child to save another is pretty much a direct contradiction in behaviour.

If anyone has another scenario in their minds for the BDI theory, please share.

The above is my opinion only, as always, based on many things including evidence, known facts, behavioural analysis, statistics, and personal knowledge.

 

[Whaleshark]

Let's strip it back to known fact then....and actually go through a scenario.

So Burke hits his sister and cracks her skull.

Where did he do this? How was she moved?

Let's assume it was in her bedroom, or his.

Somehow PR woke and walked in on BR actually raping his sister who was having seizures, and vomiting, and unconscious.

What is the very first thing a parent would do?

Stop the rape, certainly. Witness their "much loved" baby girl bleeding and unconscious.

The very first reaction from any normal parent would be to save their dying daughter. They would call 911. They would not think "gee, well JB is nearly dead, let's finish her off, and Burke, go to your room!"

The absolute first thing they would do would be to go into denial that their son had done ANYTHING like that, and try to save their daughter.

They didn't.

Instead, they spent an hour and a half what - wandering around the house, staging, writing ransom notes, all while a (possibly saveable) JB was slipping away?

Would they turn a rape/assault into a MURDER to protect their son?

Oh she isn't dead yet, my goodness, lets strangle her, oh and while we are at it, get a paintbrush and abuse her even further?

Any parent who would behave in this way is psychotic. Killing one child to save another is pretty much a direct contradiction in behaviour.

If anyone has another scenario in their minds for the BDI theory, please share.

The above is my opinion only, as always, based on many things including evidence, known facts, behavioural analysis, statistics, and personal knowledge.

Again, you assume those particular events only in that particular BDI theory.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Is the God Bless America video of JonBenet, in her first pageant (1995 ), the first time bruises are seen on her? Are there any earlier ones?

If John was manhandling her, could it of been to hold her still while he molested her?

If Pasty, I see her shoving JonBenet around by her arm to make her mind or stand still. Maybe to hold her still and "clean" her up after an accident.

If Burke, he was mean to his sister and maybe doing more than squeezing her arm.

I thought JonBenet's pageant career was longer than it was. I can see that from the summer of 1995 till she died, someone was physically abusing her.

In a short span of eighteen months JonBenet started kindergarten and Pasty doubled down on lessons of every kind to help her win those crowns.

Do you think Nedra Paugh manhandled her girls?

 

[SapphireSteel]

Again, you assume those particular events only in that particular BDI theory.

Perhaps you could share your theory as to the events of the evening?

I am sincerely interested, not snarking. Obviously something has convinced the BDI's, I just cannot see what it is. There must be a piece of information I am missing.

TIA.

 

[SapphireSteel]

There weren't presents in the comfy bed. The presents were in the basement


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The presents were Burkes, for his upcoming birthday.

Why would JB wish to look at boy stuff, especially at 1am?

 

[Whaleshark]

Perhaps you could share your theory as to the events of the evening?

I am sincerely interested, not snarking. Obviously something has convinced the BDI's, I just cannot see what it is. There must be a piece of information I am missing.

TIA.

Well, first of all I am an RDI, but I do not have a theory on any Ramsey - I believe it could be a multiple of scenarios, any one of them can be guilty, including a JAR... So just because I support possible BDI theories, does not mean I am a BDI... I have not committed to any one theory.

So I will not be laying out a detailed BDI theory per se... But, there are several other BDI theorists, and definitely newly evolving ones with the new book that just came out by Kolar... I would say to read his book, and other BDI theory threads for different ideas and versions...

But as some examples, and as different ideas than what you were assuming in a BDI theory-- I already mentioned that we now have it confirmed that Burke is the one who went and opened the hidden wrapped gifts in the wine cellar, that Patsy originally said she opened - proof she covered for him on something that shouldn't matter to cover for him on... That puts out a new very plausible theory of why they were down there, placing Burke down there for sure.

Again, the kids could have been fighting down there about anything - late night snacks, chocolate and pineapple, brand new Xmas gifts, hidden presents they were not supposed to open, telling mom and dad about their secret doctor game, Nintendo game sharing, any and all, or none of the above...

Each of these things are subjects of note in the case, if we read up on the case information.... That's why they are brought up... So I'm not pulling random subjects out of my butt...

Anyway, depending on what they were fighting about, if they were, and if they even went to bed or not, would lead to why he may have hit her on the head.... Or it could be as simple as they were still high strung and playing in the train room, with Burke swinging a golf club around, and/or them playing him pulling her on a leash with the rope as mentioned happened before too... In other words, they might have already been up playing in the train room, downstairs room areas, and probably were, and is why she was up eating a late snack...

Whether the head bash was an accident in horseplay, or deliberate out of fighting, that night's jab inside her could have been after she was laying there and he did it on impulse, or they were playing and he jabbed her and she screamed and it scared him and he hit her really quick so he wouldn't get in trouble (a lot of BDI believe this), and he didn't realize how hard he hit her... I don't know....

The thing is, just because you can't believe it, or you only see one possible scenario, or this theory doesn't make sense to you, and you don't see any other possibilities or scenarios, or think the person or persons who did it had to only be psychopaths- well, you put yourself at a disadvantage, because then you are unable and unwilling to see any other possibilities.

This is why I do not commit to one particular RDI theory, and I argue for any and all the above... including a JR theory, and a JAR theory, and yes, a BDI theory... No, I'm not leaving out PDI, just saying....

 

[SapphireSteel]

Well, first of all I am an RDI, but I do not have a theory on any Ramsey - I believe it could be a multiple of scenarios, any one of them can be guilty, including a JAR... So just because I support possible BDI theories, does not mean I am a BDI... I have not committed to any one theory.

So I will not be laying out a detailed BDI theory per se... But, there are several other BDI theorists, and definitely newly evolving ones with the new book that just came out by Kolar... I would say to read his book, and other BDI theory threads for different ideas and versions...

But as some examples, and as different ideas than what you were assuming in a BDI theory-- I already mentioned that we now have it confirmed that Burke is the one who went and opened the hidden wrapped gifts in the wine cellar, that Patsy originally said she opened - proof she covered for him on something that shouldn't matter to cover for him on... That puts out a new very plausible theory of why they were down there, placing Burke down there for sure.

Again, the kids could have been fighting down there about anything - late night snacks, chocolate and pineapple, brand new Xmas gifts, hidden presents they were not supposed to open, telling mom and dad about their secret doctor game, Nintendo game sharing, any and all, or none of the above...

Each of these things are subjects of note in the case, if we read up on the case information.... That's why they are brought up... So I'm not pulling random subjects out of my butt...

Anyway, depending on what they were fighting about, if they were, and if they even went to bed or not, would lead to why he may have hit her on the head.... Or it could be as simple as they were still high strung and playing in the train room, with Burke swinging a golf club around, and/or them playing him pulling her on a leash with the rope as mentioned happened before too... In other words, they might have already been up playing in the train room, downstairs room areas, and probably were, and is why she was up eating a late snack...

Whether the head bash was an accident in horseplay, or deliberate out of fighting, that night's jab inside her could have been after she was laying there and he did it on impulse, or they were playing and he jabbed her and she screamed and it scared him and he hit her really quick so he wouldn't get in trouble (a lot of BDI believe this), and he didn't realize how hard he hit her... I don't know....

The thing is, just because you can't believe it, or you only see one possible scenario, or this theory doesn't make sense to you, and you don't see any other possibilities or scenarios, or think the person or persons who did it had to only be psychopaths- well, you put yourself at a disadvantage, because then you are unable and unwilling to see any other possibilities.

This is why I do not commit to one particular RDI theory, and I argue for any and all the above... including a JR theory, and a JAR theory, and yes, a BDI theory... No, I'm not leaving out PDI, just saying....

I misunderstood, as you are so vehemently criticising my posts on BDI (saying I lived in "fantasy land") I had assumed that you had a workable theory.

Apparently not.

Any other BDI's who can help by sharing what exactly they think happened that night?

Once again, not snarking, just looking for a way out of "fantasy land".

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Gifts to go on their trips so they had more to open on their 'second Xmas' gatherings, and Burke's birthday gifts, which was right after Xmas in January.

John said he took presents with him when he went to check on the plane Christmas Eve. I think they were for John Andrew, Melinda and her fiance Stewart and one or two for Burke and JonBenet

Pasty said they held a few back for Burke's birthday in January. I'm trying to remember in what statement that she said one of the gifts was for her niece. It was a pack of size 12 Bloomies panties with the days of the week.

Pasty also said that JonBenet wanted them and were put in her panty drawer and she wore both the size sixes and the 12's. JonBenet was wearing a pair of size 12's when found and none that size were found in the house.

 

[midwest mama]

Gifts to go on their trips so they had more to open on their 'second Xmas' gatherings, and Burke's birthday gifts, which was right after Xmas in January.

JB told Mrs. Kostaniak (sp?) that she expected a special visit from Santa after Christmas. If she and Burke were together in the wee hours, maybe part of the reason started off as them going back down through the living room and then on into the basement to check for anything Santa might have brought again that night for them as his "after Christmas visit".

JB could have talked Burke into the search, even though Burke probably knew better than a 'Santa' would have come, because he wanted to see if he could find what might be stashed for his birthday - 'those expensive presents his parents didn't get him for Christmas' - as he told during one of his interviews.

 

[dodie20]

dodie20,
Burke was assisted by his father and he is still friends with many people from his childhood.

I think everyone mostly bought into the IDI theory, and considered the media muck-rakers, and the police incompetent.

He has been protected, physically, as a child, but now as an adult I wonder if he realizes to what extent the case might have affected him psychologically?

Sometimes joining the dots can work. I wonder if the current Cold-Case Review Team had any contact with Kolar, e.g. his BDI perspective, or even chats or requests for evidence confirmation etc?

.

The friends I ewas talking about were the Ws., The 2 families were so close, that they spent 2 consecutive Christmas dinners together. IMO, that's practically family...but then after JBR died, they cut off ties, and seemed to hate each other. A break like that, especially during the time of a sibling's death, would be traumatic, no doubt about it, and a double wammy. MOO

 

[Whaleshark]

I misunderstood, as you are so vehemently criticising my posts on BDI (saying I lived in "fantasy land") I had assumed that you had a workable theory.

Apparently not.

Any other BDI's who can help by sharing what exactly they think happened that night?

Once again, not snarking, just looking for a way out of "fantasy land".

I was not vehemently criticizing you, Sapphire.

The ONLY thing I said that you were in 'fantasy land' about, again, was that there was no TIME in their busy schedules, according to you, to do some molesting and/or private sexual games.

You can brush my points off if you want, simply because I don't offer you a detailed airtight BDI theory, but it doesn't mean that it's not plausible that he molested her. Sorry if that doesn't satisfy you, but again, there are Burke did it theory threads already here, plus the latest info in Kolar's book.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I was not vehemently criticizing you, Sapphire.

The ONLY thing I said that you were in 'fantasy land' about, again, was that there was no TIME in their busy schedules, according to you, to do some molesting and/or private sexual games.

You can brush my points off if you want, simply because I don't offer you a detailed airtight BDI theory, but it doesn't mean that it's not plausible that he molested her. Sorry if that doesn't satisfy you, but again, there are Burke did it theory threads already here, plus the latest info in Kolar's book.

Despite asking I still don't know what your "points" are, but you brushed my points off as "fantasy" based on...what, exactly?

This thread is entitled "based on what you know TODAY"...which is why I am not going back to old threads, as they had no reference to Kolars information.

I ask again....those who are still BDI...please, walk me through your theory.

Thanks in advance.

 

[SapphireSteel]

That's you. I'm very sorry that happened to you. She was just 6 years old, and molestation isn't always painful. Sometimes the child even enjoys it, the attention, the sensations, the "special time" IMO 6 year olds are easy to manipulate. The way it's perceived by the victim is all that counts. That's how many children are chronically sexually abused and never say a word.

That paintbrush....hurt. Was it to cover previous abuse by an adult? Or did the molestation take a sadistic turn at the hand of another child?

I tend to believe ....when considered with the reported scream, it was her brother.


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Clearly you have never been a victim of molestation as a child.

They DO NOT "enjoy" it. They experience fear, pain, shame, anguish, grief at their world changing forever.

It took me until I was a grown adult before I told anybody, the shame was that profound.

I also knew I would not be believed...tragic, when you think about it, to be a little girl who learnt so early she could trust NO ONE.

JBR learnt this lesson too. She would NEVER have gone voluntarily to that nasty basement for more abuse. Not in a week of Sundays.

 

[txsvicki]

There's a difference between little kids acting out sexually in a non painful way and gettin g penetrated and rubbed raw. Jonbenet is said to have been penetrated maybe even 3 days before and had suffered pain and redness 3 years before. Plus she was forced to sleep in a wet bed. Had to wear pullups duri ng the day then had to wear stained underwear. She probably associated the area down there as pretty uncomfortable and even painful by the time of her death.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I misunderstood, as you are so vehemently criticising my posts on BDI (saying I lived in "fantasy land") I had assumed that you had a workable theory.

Apparently not.

Any other BDI's who can help by sharing what exactly they think happened that night?

Once again, not snarking, just looking for a way out of "fantasy land".

Well, I think it's entirely possible the parents never put anyone to bed, get ready for bed perhaps, but not tucked kissed and lights out sorta thing. I doubt JR ever read anyone a bed time story and well Patsy sure was lazy... About almost everything.

The parents went to bed. The kids had a late night snack, when Burke headed downstairs to snoop at those presents. Maybe he originally didn't want her down there with him, and she followed anyway, little siblings tend to do that.

Maybe she threatened to tell about the snooping? He hits her with the flashlight. She falls down and is unresponsive. Her bladder empties. He thinks she's playing around so he pokes her hard with the track or whatever. She doesn't move. Hmmm he's curious wants to take the sexual abuse to another level and takes off her clothes and starts poking around and violates her with the paintbrush. There is bleeding. He's afraid someone will see it so he cleans her up. He gets to thinking that he's gonna be in huge trouble when she wakes up and tells. Panic sets in. Gets his pocket knife and rope. He tries to strangle her with the rope, he's not strong enough, he uses the handle for leverage.

He goes upstairs and sits in the hallway, getting up the courage to tell his mom that jonbenet is missing, not in her room. He points Patsy in the direction of the basement saying he heard a noise.

Patsy finds Jonbenet, Sends Burke to his room, writes the note, redressed her, covered her. Wakes John ...yelling, lots of it. Then Patsy called 911...Burke comes downstairs & says, "what did you find?"





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[Linda7NJ]

Clearly you have never been a victim of molestation as a child.

They DO NOT "enjoy" it. They experience fear, pain, shame, anguish, grief at their world changing forever.

It took me until I was a grown adult before I told anybody, the shame was that profound.

I also knew I would not be believed...tragic, when you think about it, to be a little girl who learnt so early she could trust NO ONE.

JBR learnt this lesson too. She would NEVER have gone voluntarily to that nasty basement for more abuse. Not in a week of Sundays.

Ummmm my basis for knowledge & my opinion of childhood sexual abuse isn't up for discussion.
I never said ALL children enjoy it. It's rather presumptuous of you to assume you speak for every victim and abuse is the same for everyone.

Please do not confuse my statement as some form of consent. That is not what I am saying.


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[SapphireSteel]

Well, I think it's entirely possible the parents never put anyone to bed, get ready for bed perhaps, but not tucked kissed and lights out sorta thing. I doubt JR ever read anyone a bed time story and well Patsy sure was lazy... About almost everything.

The parents went to bed. The kids had a late night snack, when Burke headed downstairs to snoop at those presents. Maybe he originally didn't want her down there with him, and she followed anyway, little siblings tend to do that.

Maybe she threatened to tell about the snooping? He hits her with the flashlight. She falls down and is unresponsive. Her bladder empties. He thinks she's playing around so he pokes her hard with the track or whatever. She doesn't move. Hmmm he's curious wants to take the sexual abuse to another level and takes off her clothes and starts poking around and violates her with the paintbrush. There is bleeding. He's afraid someone will see it so he cleans her up. He gets to thinking that he's gonna be in huge trouble when she wakes up and tells. Panic sets in. Gets his pocket knife and rope. He tries to strangle her with the rope, he's not strong enough, he uses the handle for leverage.

He goes upstairs and sits in the hallway, getting up the courage to tell his mom that jonbenet is missing, not in her room. He points Patsy in the direction of the basement saying he heard a noise.

Patsy finds Jonbenet, Sends Burke to his room, writes the note, redressed her, covered her. Wakes John ...yelling, lots of it. Then Patsy called 911...Burke comes downstairs & says, "what did you find?"

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Thank you for posting your theory, but naturally I have questions -

In amongst all of this, is JBR alive or deceased?

If she is deceased, why the garrote? How would this protect Burke?

If she is not deceased, why the garrote? How would this protect Burke?

If they wanted to protect Burke, why not remove JBR, put her outside, wait for hypothermia to finish the job? This way they need not call 911 at all, until the following morning...and no garrote would be needed?

Why leave her in the basement where Burke played, if they wanted to cover for him?

Where does the large underwear come in to play, what "protect Burke" reasoning is behind that?

Why deny JBR ate pineapple? How does this protect Burke?

It boils down to this - it is completely contrary behaviour to murder one child, to protect another, who at that stage was merely injured and possibly saveable.

If it was to save their reputation, a living JBR is much much easier to explain than a dead one. All medical records of the living are confidential. JBR could be booked into hospital, be treated and released, with no one PUBLICLY any wiser.

The charges against Burke would be bargained down by a fancy lawyer to a few weeks in a psych institution (also confidential).

A living JBR = no repercussions on reputation, an unfortunate accident, a couple of hospital stays, case closed.

A deceased JBR = full scale police investigation, media attention, forensics, explanations, questioning etc etc.

:moo:

 

[dodie20]

Do we know who made the mess on the chocolates?

 

[Intriguing]

Thank you for posting your theory, but naturally I have questions -

In amongst all of this, is JBR alive or deceased?

If she is deceased, why the garrote? How would this protect Burke?

If she is not deceased, why the garrote? How would this protect Burke?

If they wanted to protect Burke, why not remove JBR, put her outside, wait for hypothermia to finish the job? This way they need not call 911 at all, until the following morning...and no garrote would be needed?

Why leave her in the basement where Burke played, if they wanted to cover for him?

Where does the large underwear come in to play, what "protect Burke" reasoning is behind that?

Why deny JBR ate pineapple? How does this protect Burke?

It boils down to this - it is completely contrary behaviour to murder one child, to protect another, who at that stage was merely injured and possibly saveable.

If it was to save their reputation, a living JBR is much much easier to explain than a dead one. All medical records of the living are confidential. JBR could be booked into hospital, be treated and released, with no one PUBLICLY any wiser.

The charges against Burke would be bargained down by a fancy lawyer to a few weeks in a psych institution (also confidential).

A living JBR = no repercussions on reputation, an unfortunate accident, a couple of hospital stays, case closed.

A deceased JBR = full scale police investigation, media attention, forensics, explanations, questioning etc etc.

:moo:

JBR dead by the time Patsy finds her.
Burke made the garotte with his penknife, the paintbrush he'd just abused JBR with and cord.
Why not remove JBR? Patsy was so horrified she couldn't move or touch JBR and John wouldn't have wanted too much more contact either. possibly they didn't discover the body until very late - perhaps three or four in the morning.
Left her in the basement because not enough time to move her and they had the sense to not touch her any further. The way John peculiarly ascended the stairs with her body held out from his, as Arndt describes, might have been an attempt to keep his fingerprints away from the previously wiped down corpse.
Large underwear - Burke performed some rudimentary clean-up, including redressing her with underwear he'd found in one of the presents he'd opened.
Pineapple - neither parent knew Burke had fed her pineapple. This happened when the kids snuck downstairs after lights out and before they went down to the basement.