Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[Linda7NJ]

I also have an idea on the whole BR being awake and talking story. Maybe it wasn't a lie... because BR never backed his parent's story. He said, (during the GJ procedings), that he was awake in his room, but Prentended to be asleep. Why would he make up a story, that went against his parent's version? I know there was a lot of controversy surrounding the enhanced tapes...everything from there being no voices at all, to there being a conversation between JR and BR, and PR wailing to Jesus. When I listen, I hear voices, but not 3. I think it's possible that the conversation was between JR and PR, with her voice sounding childlike. Also, if that really was BR's voice on the 911, maybe JR and PR lied about him being asleep, so the cops would leave him alone and not ask him questions.

Did I miss the release of the gj transcripts?


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[dodie20]

Did I miss the release of the gj transcripts?


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IDK about the transcripts, but I have read, in a few different places, including JR's interview with The National Enquirer, that he didn't know BR's version until after the GJ proceedings.

 

[Linda7NJ]

IDK about the transcripts, but I have read, in a few different places, including JR's interview with The National Enquirer, that he didn't know BR's version until after the GJ proceedings.

Oh. I just do not consider JR a credible source.


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[Chrishope]

Things were a lot different in 1996. First of all, parents of murdered children didn't hire lawyers...not separate, not joint, not at all. I guess after awhile, if they thought they were being looked at as suspects, they might have hired a lawyer to help straighten things out, but in 1996, the Rs hiring lawyers, was highly unusual. It was so unusual in fact, that it was the main reason the public started suspecting them. Now, people hire lawyers for everything, but unless parents have something to hide, they don't clam up and refuse to cooperate. They take LDTs, give interviews to LE, and turn over anything that is asked for. IMO, the Rs hiring separate lawyers was beyond unusual, it was astonishing. IMO, they separated themselves, because one was guilty and the other wasn't. MOO. Also, imo, the Rs set the standard for how people, with something to hide, still deal with LE, during an investigation. Lawyer up, clam up, and treat the cops like your enemy. MOO

You are mixing two different things here. If you want to say hiring lawyers so early in the game was unusual and suspicious, ok. My point is simply that you can 't conclude anything from the fact that they have separate lawyers. Even in '96 (hell even in 1896) this would be standard. A lawyer can't represent two clients if he might have to point a finger at one or the other. Once the decision was made to hire lawyers, there is nothing in the least little bit unusual about having separate lawyers. Had it gone to trial I seriously doubt the judge would permit both of them to be represented by one lawyer.

Consider just one example: How would the cross finger pointing defense work if they both had the same lawyer? The lawyer can't very well say "My client didn't do it, my other client did it".

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

I'm sure every one of us, at some point in time, plays with Kaleidoscope, right? As it turns, the same bits of colored glass creates different picture with the help from the mirrors...the same happens in this case: our mind (as the mirror) reflects the same evidences/facts into so many different scenarios. Here is mine 'kaleidoscope':

First turn.....

IF SEX is the foundation THEN
acute injury was done first;
head injury was done second;
person who's capable to do the first and second is capable to do
the STRANGULATION!;
everything else is 'staging'
ENDIF

Second turn.....

IF ACCIDENT is the foundation THEN
head injury was done first;
acute injury is 'staging' to cover the prior chronic abuse;
strangulation is 'staging'
ENDIF

...my 'kaleidoscope' is still turning....

Even better analogy........... I thought of a Rubics cube,

 

[BOESP]

[snip]
How would the cross finger pointing defense work if they both had the same lawyer? The lawyer can't very well say "My client didn't do it, my other client did it".

And therein is one of the first signs exhibited by the Ramseys that someone in Ramsey land was preparing for an indictment. The fact they hired separate lawyers is smart. It was also a perfect foil for an future cross finger-pointing.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Doesn't Kolar believe that John figured it out after police were called or didn't know anything until finding the body? That's pretty much what i think, but can't figure out how Patsy convinced him to lie about Burke being asleep. I thjnk she basically set john up with that and framed burke for the strangulation in case he tried to leave her, but also never told him the truth or admitted to a thing.

I think Pasty set things up and into motion by waking John up and then making a call for friends to come over, then calling 911. Maybe the "we need them hon" was her trying to muddy the waters and keep John away from her.

John was fairly calm, smiling and even joking....until he went missing that morning. After that he was seen sitting at the dining room table alone, his head in his hands and jiggling his foot. I think he had more time to read the ransom letter and knew Pasty had done something and went to see where Pasty hid her.
John telling Burke "we're not talking to you" could of been when he was re-reading the letter and trying to figure it out and wanted him out of the loop and sent him back to his room and then had him moved to a safer place at the Whites.

Burke couldn't of written the ransom letter. Burke had problems with fine motor skills and writing. In one interview Pasty talked about Burke and his school work and, she mentioned something that made me think of Dysgraphia. It's called an "disorder of written expression". It's common in AD/HD, Learning Disabilities and Aspergers within the Autism Spectrum Disorder. Even if Pasty dictated the letter for him to write it, it would of taken a large amount of time and it would of been fairly illegible to read. My grandson took forever to write anything. It was like pulling teeth. Most do better with typing or using a computer, but still have problems putting thoughts to paper. It doesn't have anything to do with intelligence.

 

[crimedoesnotpay]

I think Pasty set things up and into motion by waking John up and then making a call for friends to come over, then calling 911. Maybe the "we need them hon" was her trying to muddy the waters and keep John away from her.

John was fairly calm, smiling and even joking....until he went missing that morning. After that he was seen sitting at the dining room table alone, his head in his hands and jiggling his foot. I think he had more time to read the ransom letter and knew Pasty had done something and went to see where Pasty hid her.
John telling Burke "we're not talking to you" could of been when he was re-reading the letter and trying to figure it out and wanted him out of the loop and sent him back to his room and then had him moved to a safer place at the Whites.

Burke couldn't of written the ransom letter. Burke had problems with fine moter skills and writing. In one interview Pasty talked about Burke and his school work and, she mentioned something that made me think of Dysgraphia. It's called an "disorder of written expression". It's common in AD/HD, Learning Disabilities and Aspergers within the Autism Spectrum Disorder. Even if Pasty dictated the letter for him to write it, it would of taken a large amount of time and it would of been fairly illegible to read. My grandson took forever to write anything. It was like pulling teeth. Most do better with typing or using a computer, but still have problems putting thoughts to paper. It doesn't have anything to do with intelligence.

The "we're not talking to you" comment was made during the 911 call - the way you say it makes it sound different - he was indicating to his son that they were talking to eachother and to the police. Also what makes you think John "arranged" for burke to go to the Whites - good old fleet was there already running round the basement stepping over bodies - picking up evidence and offering to take Burke out of the picture - even making his bed all nice and neat for him - bless. :/

Yeah, some people are calm enough under duress to stop and make a bed - and some are calm enough to co-operate simply out of incredulity and disbelief about the unfathomable.... goes every which way.

 

[dodie20]

The "we're not talking to you" comment was made during the 911 call - the way you say it makes it sound different - he was indicating to his son that they were talking to eachother and to the police. Also what makes you think John "arranged" for burke to go to the Whites - good old fleet was there already running round the basement stepping over bodies - picking up evidence and offering to take Burke out of the picture - even making his bed all nice and neat for him - bless. :/

Yeah, some people are calm enough under duress to stop and make a bed - and some are calm enough to co-operate simply out of incredulity and disbelief about the unfathomable.... goes every which way.

actually, they were not talking to the police and each other. PR was talking to the police, but JR didn't offer any input at all. I don't know where he was or what he was doing, but he was as quiet as a mouse. After PR 'hung up', a conversation could be heard, and 1 of those voices has been attributed to JR, so, if it was BR, he was talking to, why would he say, 'we're not talking to you'? makes no sense, IMO, because from the transcripted conversation, BR was simply asking what was going on.

 

[crimedoesnotpay]

actually, they were not talking to the police and each other. PR was talking to the police, but JR didn't offer any input at all. I don't know where he was or what he was doing, but he was as quiet as a mouse. After PR 'hung up', a conversation could be heard, and 1 of those voices has been attributed to JR, so, if it was BR, he was talking to, why would he say, 'we're not talking to you'? makes no sense, IMO, because from the transcripted conversation, BR was simply asking what was going on.

You don't know that he was asking what was going on as opposed to addressing the phone call he has just overheard between his mother and the police - John told Patsy to call the police and this is what I meant by them speaking to eachother - prior to the call - and then to the police - of course yeah just the one on the phone - that is why he says - we are not talking to you.... - there is some debate as to if these specific words are audible or not though.

 

[txsvicki]

Burke said " what DID you find?" John says "we're not speaking to you!" They must have been speaking to him before the call and he knew nothing of what was found. Patsy setting up burke to fool john, imo. I even wonder if she'd told john that burke was the last one to see jonbenet or that she'd found something else besides the note. Maybe blood on clothing the previous week?

 

[qtc]

I think Pasty set things up and into motion by waking John up and then making a call for friends to come over, then calling 911. Maybe the "we need them hon" was her trying to muddy the waters and keep John away from her.

John was fairly calm, smiling and even joking....until he went missing that morning. After that he was seen sitting at the dining room table alone, his head in his hands and jiggling his foot. I think he had more time to read the ransom letter and knew Pasty had done something and went to see where Pasty hid her.
John telling Burke "we're not talking to you" could of been when he was re-reading the letter and trying to figure it out and wanted him out of the loop and sent him back to his room and then had him moved to a safer place at the Whites.

Burke couldn't of written the ransom letter. Burke had problems with fine motor skills and writing. In one interview Pasty talked about Burke and his school work and, she mentioned something that made me think of Dysgraphia. It's called an "disorder of written expression". It's common in AD/HD, Learning Disabilities and Aspergers within the Autism Spectrum Disorder. Even if Pasty dictated the letter for him to write it, it would of taken a large amount of time and it would of been fairly illegible to read. My grandson took forever to write anything. It was like pulling teeth. Most do better with typing or using a computer, but still have problems putting thoughts to paper. It doesn't have anything to do with intelligence.

BBM
I had not read this before, that he was smiling and joking. What is the source?

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

BBM
I had not read this before, that he was smiling and joking. What is the source?

Perfect Murder Perfect Town if I recall correctly. The second was Linda Arndt. She sad he was pacing back and forth, lots of nervous energy after his went missing, so she gave him something to do. He made a beeline to the wine cellar.

 

[crimedoesnotpay]

Burke said " what DID you find?" John says "we're not speaking to you!" They must have been speaking to him before the call and he knew nothing of what was found. Patsy setting up burke to fool john, imo. I even wonder if she'd told john that burke was the last one to see jonbenet or that she'd found something else besides the note. Maybe blood on clothing the previous week?

To plot this crime, arranging targets as fall guys etc would in this case be the work of a ruthless cold hearted psychopath which Patsy was not.

J: (switches on light with wife) Have you seen Jonbenet? where is Jonbenet?
B: ughh..
J: Call the police (to Patsy)
B: The police.. what do I do? / Please.. what did I do? ??
J: we're not speaking to you (but to eachother.. )
B: (overhearing the convo to the police).. What did you find?!

J: mum found a letter and we can't find jonbenet
B: what did you find?

 

[UKGuy]

I think Pasty set things up and into motion by waking John up and then making a call for friends to come over, then calling 911. Maybe the "we need them hon" was her trying to muddy the waters and keep John away from her.

John was fairly calm, smiling and even joking....until he went missing that morning. After that he was seen sitting at the dining room table alone, his head in his hands and jiggling his foot. I think he had more time to read the ransom letter and knew Pasty had done something and went to see where Pasty hid her.
John telling Burke "we're not talking to you" could of been when he was re-reading the letter and trying to figure it out and wanted him out of the loop and sent him back to his room and then had him moved to a safer place at the Whites.

Burke couldn't of written the ransom letter. Burke had problems with fine motor skills and writing. In one interview Pasty talked about Burke and his school work and, she mentioned something that made me think of Dysgraphia. It's called an "disorder of written expression". It's common in AD/HD, Learning Disabilities and Aspergers within the Autism Spectrum Disorder. Even if Pasty dictated the letter for him to write it, it would of taken a large amount of time and it would of been fairly illegible to read. My grandson took forever to write anything. It was like pulling teeth. Most do better with typing or using a computer, but still have problems putting thoughts to paper. It doesn't have anything to do with intelligence.

ILikeToBendPages,
I cannot find any reference to : John was fairly calm, smiling and even joking in Perfect Murder/Perfect Town. Here are Arndt's first subjective references about John Ramsey.

Perfect Murder/Perfect Town, excerpt

When 10:00 A.M. came and went without a call from the kidnappers, Arndt thought it strange that nobody in the house commented. It wasn’t long before John Ramsey became more distraught. He sat by himself nervously tapping his foot, leaning his face on one hand as if he was trying to figure something out. Patsy Ramsey kept repeating, “Why did they do this?”

...

Later in the morning the Ramseys’ friends were still in the rear of the house consoling Patsy, who clutched a crucifix in her hands. Arndt, who didn’t know that John Ramsey had gone down into the basement before 10:00 A.M., was still the only officer in the house. She was concerned for Ramsey when she saw him sitting alone in the dining room, head down and hands clasped together. He seemed despondent, totally withdrawn.
Everyone was waiting for the kidnappers to call.

...

Just before 1:00 P.M., Arndt asked Fleet White and John Fernie to take John Ramsey on another tour of the house. She wanted to keep Ramsey busy. She also wanted him to check if anything was missing—anything that might have been taken along with JonBenét. White informed Arndt that he had reported his own daughter missing to the Boulder PD several months earlier. But before the police had arrived he found her hiding inside his house.

John telling Burke "we're not talking to you" could of been when he was re-reading the letter and trying to figure it out and wanted him out of the loop and sent him back to his room and then had him moved to a safer place at the Whites.

There was approximately two hours between the 911 call and Burke being moved to FW's house.

Burke has prior knowledge of the 911 call, he returned to his bed and faked being asleep, conclusion: Burke Ramsey assisted in the postmortem staging of the murder of JonBenet Ramsey.

If you consider Burke was'nt involved in JonBenet's death, then I reckon this tilts the emphasis more towards PDI, since there is more forensic evidence implicating Patsy. Then again it could be John is very clever, convinced Patsy to help, and minimized any of his forensic traces?

.

 

[crimedoesnotpay]

ILikeToBendPages,
I cannot find any reference to : John was fairly calm, smiling and even joking in Perfect Murder/Perfect Town. Here are Arndt's first subjective references about John Ramsey.

Perfect Murder/Perfect Town, excerpt



There was approximately two hours between the 911 call and Burke being moved to FW's house.

Burke has prior knowledge of the 911 call, he returned to his bed and faked being asleep, conclusion: Burke Ramsey assisted in the postmortem staging of the murder of JonBenet Ramsey.

If you consider Burke was'nt involved in JonBenet's death, then I reckon this tilts the emphasis more towards PDI, since there is more forensic evidence implicating Patsy. Then again it could be John is very clever, convinced Patsy to help, and minimized any of his forensic traces?

.

If though Burke had killed Jonbenet by accident in some form of role-playing child's play - pretending to enact an escape through the basement window whereupon she screamed at the spider's webs (a scream heard thru the partially open window by a neighbour but not through the sound proofing created by the house to be heard on the top storey) and fell and cracked her skull possibly on the window sill ledge, then it would explain why she was so loosely bound and why she was re-dressed - for the role-play - and why the scene seemed so "staged" (staged being a word associated with acting or role-play). The garrotting with the piece of string... an unwitting act his sister might have been able to struggle against in previous child's play of similar games - why the ransom note seems so over-dramatised... why no ransom call was received...

 

[txsvicki]

I googled, and found mention of john smiling and sometimes even joking in the Bonita papers where they talk of Arndt explaining the phone tap.

 

[UKGuy]

I googled, and found mention of john smiling and sometimes even joking in the Bonita papers where they talk of Arndt explaining the phone tap.

txsvicki,
Could be thats whats being referenced. Maybe John thought: Nobody has been arrested, they buy the kidnapping? So he relaxed, smiled and joked.


.

 

[crimedoesnotpay]

txsvicki,
Could be thats whats being referenced. Maybe John thought: Nobody has been arrested, they buy the kidnapping? So he relaxed, smiled and joked.


.

Maybe the "reality" of the situation (whatever that maybe) had not set in and he was putting his best foot forward in any way he could - especially as Arndt was conscious of him having sat there with his head in his hands stressed out and was trying to keep him busy and as relaxed as she could and maybe he perceived a positive outcome or that was the only angle his mind could cope with taking. I used to act stressed under stressful situations - these days I never do. People are all different. it doesn't make them guilty.

 

[DIRK SCHILLER]

I wonder why did they call 911 ? and friends?
there´s a such delicated situation where you both read a ransom note
that says and repited 8 or 9 times they will kill their little daughter if they were doing something wrong,that they are all under scrutiny and the first thing they did is call police ?!?
I do found 2 intelligent people like the R´s won´t do that, I´d get really scared myself after reading a note like that,I´d tell police first at the phone after thinking twice if calling or not, what exactly the note says about threatening them if calling police , that they should not send a car to the house because they have been watch them, of course if JR or PR were not guilty, imo
Heidi S.