Kyron Horman Discussion Thread 2020 - 2022 - #2

[FergusMcDuck]

Law enforcement got “stuck” on Terri because, in spite of their best efforts, they could not eliminate her.

Kyron Richard Horman, 7-years-old, was missing. They were trying to find him. It’s standard procedure for law enforcement to run interviews simultaneously. They continued their interviews—checking and re-checking details—for months. Most parents and/or stepparents don’t whine over being interviewed. They want to cooperate with law enforcement and (among other things) take the helpful tool--that dang, waste-of-time, good-for-nothing polygraph--so they can be eliminated as a suspect and help law enforcement find their child. As Kaine did; as Desiree did; as Tony did.

Surely you see how this is a bad thing? Polygraphs don't work. Was it helpful and useful to make Gary Ridgway take (and pass) a polygraph? It certainly allowed LE to eliminate him as a suspect and allow him to murder forty more victims.

Should the police also employ astrologers? Eliminating suspects based on their horoscopes is just as scientific as polygraphs, and probably faster and cheaper too.

I don't for a minute believe Kaine, Desiree or Tony had anything to do with the abduction. But that certainty has nothing to do with their polygraph results nor their willingness to take one.

On June 18, 2010, law enforcement officially announced that Terri was the last known person to be seen with Kyron and they released the first poster with two images of her face on it seeking the public’s help in uncovering what she had done with Kyron after they left the school together.

After that date, law enforcement never retracted their statement that Terri was the last known person to be seen with Kyron.

Yep, at this point the investigation effectively stopped being an investigation. It all becomes an exercise in breaking Terri - one that completely failed.

I believe a neighboring friend of Terri’s, the grandmother of one of the witnesses, kept that child’s name in the media by saying things to the media the child had never said to law enforcement or perhaps had never said at all. A public request from law enforcement requesting “copies of any video interviews with students, parents or others” seemed to squelch the media’s participation, albeit not the “Terri” driven social media.

Is the implication here that the grandmother, perhaps on behest of Terri, made her grandson TP say exculpatory things about the events of the day? That's an opinion, I suppose, but I've seen the footage, and there is nothing there that would make me think so.

TP's story is simple and straightforward. He saw Terri leave. He saw Kyron by himself in the upstairs hall. They exchanged words. They split up. From the context, this has to be after 8:45, since Kyron was alone and not with Terri. Kyron's statement - that he was going to look at an exhibit - further matches the testimony of TK who saw Kyron in the gym with friends (the gym was where the older classes had their setups). Again, looking at exhibits.

And TP's tale of the statement between the chaperone and ms Porter also makes sense - the kids were indeed in groups led by chaperones and they were gathering back in their classrooms at 9:45. It also explains why Kyron wasn't marked absent at 8:45 - as he should have been if indeed Terri had told ms Porter she was taking him to an appointment - but at 10, when it became clear he wasn't coming back from the bathroom. Basically, TP's accounts fit with what we know.

Snipped quote: [June 16, 2010] NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, the sex offenders in the area, 176 are being looked into. The family is also being spoken to at this point and no one has been ruled out.
CNN.com - Transcripts

Diligent, certainly, but given my personal theory, likely futile. I'm guessing this sex offender was neither in the register, nor in the area.

Snipped quote: [July 6, 2010] Terri Horman, failed polys, cell phone records not matching, examination of files from her computer:
The reliable source also told KGW News that investigators believe that Terri has lied to investigators and that there have been several instances where they have wanted to know more about her whereabouts the day her stepson disappeared, including:
* After cell phone records seemed to indicate that she may not have been where she said on that day.

Funny how this one ended up being wrong. Turns out her ping wouldn't place her only on Sauvie Island but somewhere in the entire surrounding area - including hwy 30 where she always claimed to have been. What a difference some time makes.

* After her performance during several hours of polygraphs which, the source said, indicated that she was being "evasive"; and

Pseudoscientific nonsense.

Snipped quote: [December 10, 2010] The task force has identified 490 people who were present.
https://web.archive.org/web/20111004073136/http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/12/kyron_horman_task_force_sends.html

...and they're asking if there's anyone they've missed. In December of 2010.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

To my knowledge, law enforcement has never given a description of an unknown man connected to Kyron’s disappearance. Never. They would not confirm the sex of the unidentified person seen in the vehicle (Kaine's F250) as it moved from the school parking lot, to the side of the road in front of the school, to the service road leading to the soccer field. They later indicated they believed the person to be none other than Terri herself.

BBM. They didn't. The Morris book did.

If their belief is correct, it places Terri outside the school before 8:45 a.m. and then returning to snap Kron’s picture in his classroom, in front of his science project, at 8:45 a.m. Among other insights, this sheds light on the 13-year-old witness sighting of seeing Kyron in the gym without Terri.

So let's see if I got this straight.

* Terri and Kyron arrive at the school at 8:15, visit his classroom (213) and take pictures of him and his friend (as per witness Gina Zimmerman).
* Terri and Kyron leave the classroom, go look at other exhibits before going downstairs to classroom 104 and visit Kyron's old teacher.
* Terri leaves without Kyron, goes and sits in the truck.
* Meanwhile, Kyron meets TP and then spends time in the gym.
* Terri drives the truck up the access road.
* Terri goes back inside the school, presumably with baby K.
* Terri finds Kyron, goes back with him to the classroom just as the groups are about to form, takes a new picture, then tells ms Porter Kyron's going to a doctor's appointment and walks out the school.
* Terri and Kyron walk across the parking lot in front of everyone, go to the truck on the access road and drive away.

All of this happened within 30 minutes.

Questions:

* Why did Terri exit the school if she was just going to walk back in and out in front of everyone?
* Why did Terri move the truck up the access road if she was going to walk across the parking lot anyway?
* Why did Terri go back into the classroom to take a second picture?
* Why doesn't this match Desiree's story above?

From my viewpoint, law enforcement was soft on not only Terri but on DeDe as well. With DeDe, perhaps because her father was in law enforcement, and perhaps because all law enforcement attaches devotion to the “thin blue line”, they were too quick to discount a daughter of one of their own being involved in such a heinous crime as the disappearance of a tiny, defenseless, 7-year-old child. In my humble opinion, they were wrong. We may see something that confirms such soon.

What makes you think something is coming soon? I've seen similar comments for years now - what has changed?

 

[FergusMcDuck]

There is nothing at the provided link to confirm Kyron’s case was involved in the snafu at the Multnomah County District Attorney's Office.

Does explain a lot though.

In the eventuality of a murder trial, each of Terri’s many “legal mishaps” may be presented to a jury to show the degree to which she is a danger to society.

Getting a DUI? Which is still her only "legal mishap". Do you really think that if they have a murder case against her, they're going to add the DUI or the charges she was acquitted for? I don't think Ted Bundy needed a DUI presented at his trial to show he was a danger to society.

No, it seems clear to me that all this digging was to find an angle to come at her when the MFH sting failed and they couldn't get anything else.

I believe it is well past time for the state to steady its nerves and prosecute Kyron’s case as a “no body” crime. They have more than enough evidence and have had such for more than a decade.

No, they don't and no they won't.

Desiree has probably seen more evidence than what has been reported in the media. In the beginning, both she and Kaine were asked not to discuss the timeline. However, after 13-plus years, if she chooses to drop a bit of “new to us evidence”, and especially if she chooses to write it up for us in a nice, succinct paragraph or two, words can’t express how much I appreciate it. She will never forget her charming little boy. She will never stop pushing for justice. Justice for Kyron! Justice for Kyron! Justice for Kyron!

It's been stated in the media many times that Kyron was scheduled to participate in the talent show at 1:00 p.m. on June 4, 2010. He was scheduled to tell a joke with another little boy. That little boy was called to testify before the grand jury. All that’s new is that Desiree is confirming it. And good on her for finally doing so.

Except Desiree has been saying - until last year! - that he wasn't supposed to participate. It's in the book even. This is not a detail she didn't confirm or expose before, it is something she has changed in the last year.

Look back at the statement above. Desiree now claims Terri told ms Porter Kyron would be back at 11. So why was he marked absent at 10? Why did the initial statements from the school say they hadn't expected him to return all day? Why didn't ms Porter contact anyone at 11 when Kyron failed to return? These aren't piddly details - they're questions that go right to the core of her story, and (sadly) her credibility.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Going back to what I believe happened, I keep coming to room 109. That's a K/1 classroom on the floor below Kyron's. See the map below. We have the handbooks for 2008/09 and 2010/11, which shows 104, 109 and 110 as K/1 classrooms, and if the younger classes did the same as Kyron's, there would be exhibits there as well. Room 109 also happens to be next to the exit to the flower beds, leading right to the access road. See the google maps screenshot for the route from the door down to beyond the chain on the access road. Not only is room 109 closest to that door, we know from the groundskeeper that children walked out of that door unsupervised at least once between 8:00 and 9:00, meaning it was a workable egress from the school.

Per the 08/09 handbook, the teacher for 109 was Easter Mathews. And in September 2013 Terri's lawyer Houze, having claimed there were witnesses who saw Kyron after Terri left, was given permission to depose three of the school staff for the divorce trial. Those were Kyron's teacher ms Porter (who was in 213), school secretary ms Hall (who could have been anywhere in the school - on Dr Phil Terri said Hall had seen Kyron after she left) and the third one - ms Mathews. Why Mathews in particular? She would not have left 109 - her classroom - so whatever she saw had to have been in there. So is there something else? Some other indication that room 109 - besides its perfect placement for a quick exit without being seen - was the site of something that morning?

Well, compare the teacher lists from the handbooks, 08/09 vs 10/11. Out of all the returning teachers (which were indeed most of them) everyone kept their classrooms. Everyone, that is, but two.

Ms Mathews switched out classroom 109 with the teacher in classroom 110.

Why that change? What purpose could it have? Both classrooms were on the same floor and in the same hallway and of equal size so it can't be accessibility issues. Both classrooms and teachers were K/1 teachers, so there would be no difference there. The classes were split, so there would always be a group of the children that returned to the same teacher. Yet for some reason Ms Mathews moved from 109 to 110. This was in the fall of 2010, three years before her name became public with Houze's depositions.

Did something happen in room 109 that weighed on ms Mathews? Like, say, someone taking a young child outside to help out with getting something from his car, conveniently parked on the access road?

 

[ReadySet]

The case isn't moving. They aren't doing searches. If Terri is the actual culprit, what could they possibly do to get her? They've basically tried everything, and nothing worked. You would think that at this point a fresh set of eyes and a new direction would be welcome.

sbm
We (the public) would not know whether or not the case is moving,or if searches are being done. There could be all kinds of investigations going on that we know nothing about.

There have been many announcements of cases moving, and even arrests, that have come out of the blue, to the public's surprise.

 

[ReadySet]

Does explain a lot though.



Getting a DUI? Which is still her only "legal mishap". Do you really think that if they have a murder case against her, they're going to add the DUI or the charges she was acquitted for? I don't think Ted Bundy needed a DUI presented at his trial to show he was a danger to society.

sbm
It's important to note that Terri got that DUI while a child was in the car with her.

 

[Maat99]

Going back to what I believe happened, I keep coming to room 109. That's a K/1 classroom on the floor below Kyron's. See the map below. We have the handbooks for 2008/09 and 2010/11, which shows 104, 109 and 110 as K/1 classrooms, and if the younger classes did the same as Kyron's, there would be exhibits there as well. Room 109 also happens to be next to the exit to the flower beds, leading right to the access road. See the google maps screenshot for the route from the door down to beyond the chain on the access road. Not only is room 109 closest to that door, we know from the groundskeeper that children walked out of that door unsupervised at least once between 8:00 and 9:00, meaning it was a workable egress from the school.

Per the 08/09 handbook, the teacher for 109 was Easter Mathews. And in September 2013 Terri's lawyer Houze, having claimed there were witnesses who saw Kyron after Terri left, was given permission to depose three of the school staff for the divorce trial. Those were Kyron's teacher ms Porter (who was in 213), school secretary ms Hall (who could have been anywhere in the school - on Dr Phil Terri said Hall had seen Kyron after she left) and the third one - ms Mathews. Why Mathews in particular? She would not have left 109 - her classroom - so whatever she saw had to have been in there. So is there something else? Some other indication that room 109 - besides its perfect placement for a quick exit without being seen - was the site of something that morning?

Well, compare the teacher lists from the handbooks, 08/09 vs 10/11. Out of all the returning teachers (which were indeed most of them) everyone kept their classrooms. Everyone, that is, but two.

Ms Mathews switched out classroom 109 with the teacher in classroom 110.

Why that change? What purpose could it have? Both classrooms were on the same floor and in the same hallway and of equal size so it can't be accessibility issues. Both classrooms and teachers were K/1 teachers, so there would be no difference there. The classes were split, so there would always be a group of the children that returned to the same teacher. Yet for some reason Ms Mathews moved from 109 to 110. This was in the fall of 2010, three years before her name became public with Houze's depositions.

Did something happen in room 109 that weighed on ms Mathews? Like, say, someone taking a young child outside to help out with getting something from his car, conveniently parked on the access

So THs lies, burner phones, motive, opportunity mean nothing - the real smoking gun is that a kindergarten teacher switched rooms - two years after Kyron was abducted? That is an interesting take IMO.

 

[ReadySet]

Terri gave up her little child so she wouldn't go to prison. She wouldn't answer questions, she wouldn't undergo a mental evaluation, she wouldn't do anything where she would have to tell the truth. She had opportunities to have visitation, but she would not do what was required.

Terri's supporters say that is because she KNEW that everyone was conspiring against her and no matter what she said or did, she wouldn't be believed. She KNEW, at 3 and a half weeks in, that it was no use, that even though she was innocent, she would go to prison. So I guess she figured if she had to be without her child, it would be better to be out of prison than in. She hired a high profile, high priced defense attorney. It's mo that because she had this attorney, who was known to either win his cases, or get very good plea deals, that some were intimidated.

So if Terri is innocent she has gone all these years without her child. She didn't fight for her child. She fought to stay out of prison.

If she's guilty, she is free; but lost her child, who was just a toddler when this all happened.

I think Terri said to herself: Being in prison without my child would be hard.
Being free without my child would be hard. Choose your hard.

 

[OddOneOut]

sbm
It's important to note that Terri got that DUI while a child was in the car with her.

That still isn't admissible in a murder trial. Any competent defense attorney would have that thrown out before the jury hears it. It has nothing to do with murder.

 

[OddOneOut]

So THs lies, burner phones, motive, opportunity mean nothing - the real smoking gun is that a kindergarten teacher switched rooms - two years after Kyron was abducted? That is an interesting take IMO.

None of that is proof that TH murdered anyone.

 

[ReadySet]

That still isn't admissible in a murder trial. Any competent defense attorney would have that thrown out before the jury hears it. It has nothing to do with murder.

I didn't say it was admissable in a trial. I was referring to OP's prior statement, which left out that important part of the DUI.
Terri was convicted of reckless endangerment of a child along with that DUI.
It's interesting that was left out of the statement about her DUI. But a child endangerment conviction doesn't go along with the picture of a benign Terri.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

sbm
We (the public) would not know whether or not the case is moving,or if searches are being done. There could be all kinds of investigations going on that we know nothing about.

There have been many announcements of cases moving, and even arrests, that have come out of the blue, to the public's surprise.

Like? That is not meant as some gotcha question or anything, I would really like to see cases where that happened and compare with this.

sbm
It's important to note that Terri got that DUI while a child was in the car with her.

In this context? Most certainly not.

So THs lies, burner phones, motive, opportunity mean nothing -

We don't have any confirmed lies or motive, the burner phones were acquired after the police had attempted to incriminate her with a disastrous sting operation and got her husband to move out with her child, and the opportunity vanishes when her timeline is considered.

the real smoking gun is that a kindergarten teacher switched rooms - two years after Kyron was abducted? That is an interesting take IMO.

Not two years, the very fall after Kyron's abduction. Easter Mathews never returned to classroom 109. And I don't recall calling it a "smoking gun", but I do think it's an interesting fact that the only subpoena'd teacher (that wasn't Kyron's homeroom teacher) is the only one who changed classroom - for no discernable reason - and used to have the classroom closest to the door leading to the access road, which had been the source of so much police activity.

 

[Maat99]

None of that is proof that TH murdered anyone.

Clearly since TH is not in prison. Did anyone say it was?

 

[OddOneOut]

Clearly since TH is not in prison. Did anyone say it was?

It has been repeatedly used that way as proof when it isn't.

 

[OddOneOut]

TP's story is simple and straightforward. He saw Terri leave. He saw Kyron by himself in the upstairs hall. They exchanged words. They split up. From the context, this has to be after 8:45, since Kyron was alone and not with Terri. Kyron's statement - that he was going to look at an exhibit - further matches the testimony of TK who saw Kyron in the gym with friends (the gym was where the older classes had their setups). Again, looking at exhibits.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have always felt that this is the most likely time for Kyron to have disappeared or been abducted.

 

[OddOneOut]

"I have always felt that this is the most likely time for Kyron to have disappeared or been abducted."

Has anyone ever looked into the whereabouts of members of the "older classes" on that day? Did any of them leave school after 8:45 a.m?

It wouldn't be the first time an older child has abducted and murdered a younger child.

 

[Maat99]

I do think it's an interesting fact that the only subpoena'd teacher (that wasn't Kyron's homeroom teacher) is the only one who changed classroom - for no discernable reason - and used to have the classroom closest to the door leading to the access road, which had been the source of so much police activity.

bbm, sbm
What reason could you possibly discern given that you don’t have any information other than what you found on a floor plan? One room could have better shelving, one could be hotter, draftier, brighter…. Not to mention that actually TWO teachers switched classrooms. Do you even know which teacher actually requested the swap?

It seems to me that if you are (rightfully) scrutinizing the incriminating information released about TH, you should be at least as careful about assessing the quality and relevance of your own information before you name and then make insinuations about some poor kindergarten teacher. JMO.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

"I have always felt that this is the most likely time for Kyron to have disappeared or been abducted."

If Kyron left through the door by 109, it pretty much has to be after 8:45, or even after 9:00. The groundskeeper was at the soccer field before that, and he had a clear view of that door and the people who came out of it - since he was worried the kids might come down on the field he would have every reason to be observant. He said he finished at 8:30 and had his equipment packed up and left between 8:45 and 9 - since he didn't see Terri's truck parked on the shoulder of the road just before the entrance to the access road.

If someone parked up the access road by the chain and led Kyron down the road, they'd have to do it after the groundskeeper left.

 

[Maat99]

"I have always felt that this is the most likely time for Kyron to have disappeared or been abducted."

Has anyone ever looked into the whereabouts of members of the "older classes" on that day? Did any of them leave school after 8:45 a.m?

It wouldn't be the first time an older child has abducted and murdered a younger child.

It’s now 13(?) years later. I would think that if it was an older child, they would have committed other similar crimes by now. I wonder if there is any way to find that out?

 

[FergusMcDuck]

bbm, sbm
What reason could you possibly discern given that you don’t have any information other than what you found on a floor plan? One room could have better shelving, one could be hotter, draftier, brighter…. Not to mention that actually TWO teachers switched classrooms. Do you even know which teacher actually requested the swap?

But like I said, both classrooms had the same grades, so if one of them changed to get better shelving or be less hot or drafty, the other one would get worse shelving and be more hot and drafty. And one of the points of having a split-class system llke Skyline has is continuity - part of your class will always return to the same teacher and classroom - except in this case.

It seems to me that if you are (rightfully) scrutinizing the incriminating information released about TH, you should be at least as careful about assessing the quality and relevance of your own information before you name and then make insinuations about some poor kindergarten teacher. JMO.

Insinuations? Finding out your classroom was a crime scene would be traumatic to anyone. I doubt ms Mathews even realized what had happened until much later. She wasn't Kyron's teacher. She would have no reason to remember him in particular if he visited her classroom. But even so, if that was the room Kyron was led out of by an abductor? I get that she switched classrooms. No insinuations, no incriminations.