Kyron's General Discussion Thread for 2012-13

[MyBelle]

In my recollection it was the court that refused Terri co-parenting time.

Do you happen to have a link? In my experience, the decisions about co-parenting are usually left to the parents so that that court doesn't have to sort-out allegations being thrown by both sides.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Also- the court has refused Terri time with her daughter. Not Kaine. She has always had the opportunity to contest the order but until now has chosen not to. Speaks volumes to me.

The Court granted Kaine's request for restraining orders. And I believe the record clearly shows that her attorneys have consistently protested. I will continue to hold the opinion that it is a huge red flag that Kaine refused to allow even supervised visitation.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/09/lawyers_to_argue_over_what_inf.html

Bunch blamed Kaine Horman for moving to prevent Terri Horman from having any contact with their daughter, saying he declined every attempt by her lawyers to negotiate parenting time with Kiara, even though Terri Horman offered to see her under supervised conditions.

"Wife anticipates that an evaluation will support her contention that Husband's actions were not in Kiara's best interests,'' Bunch wrote.

 

[Donjeta]

Do you happen to have a link? In my experience, the decisions about co-parenting are usually left to the parents so that that court doesn't have to sort-out allegations being thrown by both sides.

JMO

I'm not sure why you're asking me for a link when in your next post you show yourself to be quite aware that there have been numerous no-contact orders.
Those are granted by the court by definition.

In this archive there are links to several court proceedings.
http://topics.oregonlive.com/tag/kyron horman/index-18.html

 

[MyBelle]

So let's say Terri knows nothing about what happened to Kyron and gave up fighting for the rights to see her child and just agreed to let her husband have custody because he threatened to harm her daughter if she didn't. Why? Wouldn't most mothers try to go to court to do their damnedest to prevent the sole custody of their children falling to the hands of someone who makes violent threats? I don't recall any of TH's motions ever saying he did that but it would have been an important argument against him having custody.

And if fear for her daughter's safety kept her from challenging the present arrangement until now, what has changed now?

What has changed is that her daughter is now old enough to communicate with the court directly. Do you really think Courts will decide in Terri's favor simply because she claims the father threatened her child? Proof is usually required.

I don't believe Terri knows "nothing" about what happened to Kyron. I certainly would try to protect my child and keep my mouth shut if her father threatened to harm her if I spilled the beans. I'm just speculating this occurred because I see no good reason for Kaine to refuse even supervised visitation.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

I'm not sure why you're asking me for a link when in your next post you show yourself to be quite aware that there have been numerous no-contact orders.
Those are granted by the court by definition.

In this archive there are links to several court proceedings.
http://topics.oregonlive.com/tag/kyron horman/index-18.html

"co-parenting" is a voluntary arrangement mutually agreeable between parents. A court approves it but doesn't negotiate it.

A no-contact order is not a voluntary arrangement between the parents.

You seem to be confusing the legal definitions.

JMO

 

[Donjeta]

"co-parenting" is a voluntary arrangement mutually agreeable between parents. A court approves it but doesn't negotiate it.

A no-contact order is not a voluntary arrangement between the parents.

You seem to be confusing the legal definitions.

JMO

I did not say that there were mutually agreeable voluntary agreements between parents, my point was precisely that it was the court that ordered that Terri stay away from her daughter. Several times, in fact. Kaine has no legal power to decide that Terri couldn't see her on his own.

Her attorneys have indeed filed a few perfunctory motions to complain but there appears to have been little real effort behind them. (Just MOO)

For example, she withdrew her motion to seek parenting time in November 2010, apparently because she was opposed to giving any information.

Terri Moulton Horman's attorneys have withdrawn their motion seeking parenting time for their client with her daughter after her estranged husband's lawyer informed them that they would face extensive discovery, "multiple depositions" and subpoenas for their client's medical records.

. http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/terri_moulton_horman_withdraws.html

 

[Donjeta]

What has changed is that her daughter is now old enough to communicate with the court directly. Do you really think Courts will decide in Terri's favor simply because she claims the father threatened her child? Proof is usually required.

I don't believe Terri knows "nothing" about what happened to Kyron. I certainly would try to protect my child and keep my mouth shut if her father threatened to harm her if I spilled the beans. I'm just speculating this occurred because I see no good reason for Kaine to refuse even supervised visitation.

JMO

Are you trying to say she knows that Kaine did it?
Hmmm... and then just quietly fade away and leave her daughter with him so he can do it again? That is called trying to protect her?

Josh Powell had supervised visitation and look what happened there. If Kaine thinks Terri did something to Kyron I certainly don't blame him for not wanting supervised visitation.

Do you really think Courts will decide in Terri's favor simply because she claims the father threatened her child? Proof is usually required.

So does this mean that there probably was some good reason that the courts have decided in Kaine's favor so far?

From August this year, she still doesn't want to answer any real questions:

Terri Moulton Horman agrees with her estranged husband's request that an expert should evaluate whether she should have any parenting time with the couple's 4-year-old daughter, Kiara, court papers say.

But Horman, who has been a focus of the criminal investigation into the June 2010 disappearance of her stepson, Kyron, would seek limits on such an evaluation, her attorney Peter Bunch wrote in a filing earlier this month in the Hormans' divorce case.

Police have not provided Terri Horman with information about their investigation, Bunch wrote, and she should not have to answer questions that could affect her constitutional rights.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/08/terri_horman_agrees_to_limited.html

JMO but as a mother I personally would be all over the police every day begging them to listen to what I know about my ex if I thought he harmed one child and had custody of another.


I'm not really sure why the daughter being a bit older would make much of a difference if the reason for not seeking custody was out of fear for her safety. Wouldn't the child just be more likely to be harmed if the custodial parent feared she'd say something undesirable about abuse etc? I expect that at her age, after three years of separation from the mother she'd be unlikely to remember much about her and probably wouldn't be able to say much in her favor, only something about the custodial parent.

 

[believe09]

Her husband may have threatened her.

JMO

And she would leave her child in the hands of a person who was clearly a danger?

That isnt working for me, although I respect your opinion as well. As to Kaine's ability to be truthful when he represents himself as a parent, we certainly wont know at this moment because he has had uncontested custody to this point.

He doesnt have to voluntarily work on a co parenting plan with someone who he thinks harmed his child-it seems reasonable to me that he would discount her request at this time as it is likely to be loaded. I predict she will refuse to answer any questions regarding her parenting on the record and under oath unless they preclude discussion of Kyron. To me, something like that is clearly unreasonable.

Regardless of what you and I think about the criminal case, she has to follow the same family court rules that everyone else does when it comes to this issue. And she chose to abandon her daughter for 3 years. She has to explain that. If it is because she was threatened by Kaine (over what, some kind of disclosure?) then the law will be on her side once she demonstrates that was the case.

 

[believe09]

What has changed is that her daughter is now old enough to communicate with the court directly. Do you really think Courts will decide in Terri's favor simply because she claims the father threatened her child? Proof is usually required.

I don't believe Terri knows "nothing" about what happened to Kyron. I certainly would try to protect my child and keep my mouth shut if her father threatened to harm her if I spilled the beans. I'm just speculating this occurred because I see no good reason for Kaine to refuse even supervised visitation.

JMO

This child is 3. She isnt even the age of reason. I am not too sure what kind of weight the court would give to any statements she made, but it doesnt seem that you are concerned that Kaine is beating her.

If you believe that TH and Kaine are in this together when it comes to Kyron's disappearance, she would have equal footing to obtain custody of her child. She could have come clean and been protected, cut a deal.

But she didnt. Instead she is sitting back waiting for someone to prove she didnt harm her stepson and the price she is willing to pay is her relationship with her baby. I am not sure how we should interpret it otherwise, she had the power to impact this event. She has a high profile, high powered attorney. He is looking for backdoor ways to get some kind of visitation for her rather than the straightforward by the book. This puzzles me.

TH is a long way from appearing as a victim imvho-she voluntarily brought folks into her life while she was married to Kaine, and continued at least one of those relationships shortly before and shortly after her step son disappeared. Continued it with enthusiasm, I might add. Where was her fear and her terror?

 

[Mollyandme]

The goal of LE is to find Kyron. I'm not convinced he's dead. I have seen no evidence that Terri was involved just as I've seen no evidence that Kaine was not involved. The biggest red flag I see is that Kaine has refused Terri co-parenting time with her child. Such a move is emotionally cruel to the child. There are two mothers who are without their child and the commonality is that the father is the same for both children.

JMO

i agree one million percent. thank you for posting this

 

[rosesfromangels]

http://www.kptv.com/story/18758355/fisherman-reels-in-clump-of-hair-near-sauvie-island

DNA should quickly determine if this is associated with the Horman case. Everything from the beginning of this case pointed to Sauvie Island. The phone pings, etc. Perhaps there is finally some notable progress.

 

[rosesfromangels]

And with regard to TMH attempting to regain visitation or some custody of her daughter; well, I see that as nothing more than a poor attempt at deflection. IMO, law enforcement is getting closer and this is an attempt to deflect and position TMH in a different light. Not buying it.

 

[MyBelle]

Are you trying to say she knows that Kaine did it?
Hmmm... and then just quietly fade away and leave her daughter with him so he can do it again? That is called trying to protect her?

Josh Powell had supervised visitation and look what happened there. If Kaine thinks Terri did something to Kyron I certainly don't blame him for not wanting supervised visitation.



So does this mean that there probably was some good reason that the courts have decided in Kaine's favor so far?

From August this year, she still doesn't want to answer any real questions:


http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/08/terri_horman_agrees_to_limited.html

JMO but as a mother I personally would be all over the police every day begging them to listen to what I know about my ex if I thought he harmed one child and had custody of another.


I'm not really sure why the daughter being a bit older would make much of a difference if the reason for not seeking custody was out of fear for her safety. Wouldn't the child just be more likely to be harmed if the custodial parent feared she'd say something undesirable about abuse etc? I expect that at her age, after three years of separation from the mother she'd be unlikely to remember much about her and probably wouldn't be able to say much in her favor, only something about the custodial parent.

The Court has a duty to act in the best interest of the child in custody disputes. An older child can now communicate and authorities can learn if accusations made by parents are based on fact. I'm surprised you question such a basic fact.

I think numerous medical research has proved separating an infant from her primary caregiver can have long-term behavioral and emotional effects. I've seen no evidence whatsoever that Terri was not and is not a loving mother to her child.

JMO

 

[believe09]

The Court has a duty to act in the best interest of the child in custody disputes. An older child can now communicate and authorities can learn if accusations made by parents are based on fact. I'm surprised you question such a basic fact.

I think numerous medical research has proved separating an infant from her primary caregiver can have long-term behavioral and emotional effects. I've seen no evidence whatsoever that Terri was not and is not a loving mother to her child.

JMO

She is with her primary caregiver. He is the constant who has been in her life for the last 3 years. He is the one who didnt voluntarily give her up. I am trying to find something to agree on with you, but she has the power. She can clear this up herself if she wants to. :twocents:

 

[believe09]

The Court has a duty to act in the best interest of the child in custody disputes.

Agreed. Why would this case be different?

 

[Mollyandme]

This child is 3. She isnt even the age of reason. I am not too sure what kind of weight the court would give to any statements she made, but it doesnt seem that you are concerned that Kaine is beating her.

If you believe that TH and Kaine are in this together when it comes to Kyron's disappearance, she would have equal footing to obtain custody of her child. She could have come clean and been protected, cut a deal.

But she didnt. Instead she is sitting back waiting for someone to prove she didnt harm her stepson and the price she is willing to pay is her relationship with her baby. I am not sure how we should interpret it otherwise, she had the power to impact this event. She has a high profile, high powered attorney. He is looking for backdoor ways to get some kind of visitation for her rather than the straightforward by the book. This puzzles me.

TH is a long way from appearing as a victim imvho-she voluntarily brought folks into her life while she was married to Kaine, and continued at least one of those relationships shortly before and shortly after her step son disappeared. Continued it with enthusiasm, I might add. Where was her fear and her terror?

i personally do not believe TMH was involved and I think her attorneys honestly believed her from the beginning as well (not just the typical defense attorney stuff). i think the decision to not fight the RO and visitation/custody at first came from her legal team for whatever reason (im not a lawyer so i don't feel comfortable posting legal reasons why this would make sense as i don't fully understand why myself). I think TMH listened to her attorney's advice. We can judge her all we want, but the fact is, Kyron still hasn't been found and there is nothing to link TMH to his disapperance at this time.

 

[Donjeta]

The Court has a duty to act in the best interest of the child in custody disputes. An older child can now communicate and authorities can learn if accusations made by parents are based on fact. I'm surprised you question such a basic fact.

I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me. The child in question was just a baby when Kyron disappeared. She is not going to be able to communicate anything relevant to the accusations against TH.

I think numerous medical research has proved separating an infant from her primary caregiver can have long-term behavioral and emotional effects. I've seen no evidence whatsoever that Terri was not and is not a loving mother to her child.

JMO

Yeah, me neither. I have also seen no evidence that she is a loving mother.
What I do know is that she chose not to make much of an effort to see her daughter.

Separating an infant from her primary caregiver can have long term behavioral and emotional effects but then so does death. The former one can overcome, the latter not. Usually if there is a serious reason to suspect that a child's primary caregiver may have harmed another child I vote get the kid out of there. As long as the children have not been murdered they have a chance to overcome a separation from a parent. And it's not like this child was taken from everybody she knew and thrust in the care of strangers.

JMO but if LE really had reason to think that Terri had something to do with Kyron's disappearance, which they for some reason appear to have suspected, I really can't blame Kaine for getting his surviving child the hell away from her.

How many people would think that their baby is better off in the care of a possible child killer in the name of continuous co-parenting than in the care of a single parent with no murderous intent?

 

[MyBelle]

i personally do not believe TMH was involved and I think her attorneys honestly believed her from the beginning as well (not just the typical defense attorney stuff). i think the decision to not fight the RO and visitation/custody at first came from her legal team for whatever reason (im not a lawyer so i don't feel comfortable posting legal reasons why this would make sense as i don't fully understand why myself). I think TMH listened to her attorney's advice. We can judge her all we want, but the fact is, Kyron still hasn't been found and there is nothing to link TMH to his disapperance at this time.

ITA. Evidently to some, listening to her attorney equates to guilt of murder in a case there is yet to be proof of murder.

I feel nothing but sorrow for the little girl who abruptly lost her primary caregiver. She is a victim and it is only a matter of time before advocates step in on the child's behalf and investigate her current home life and welfare.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me. The child in question was just a baby when Kyron disappeared. She is not going to be able to communicate anything relevant to the accusations against TH.




Yeah, me neither. I have also seen no evidence that she is a loving mother.
What I do know is that she chose not to make much of an effort to see her daughter.

Separating an infant from her primary caregiver can have long term behavioral and emotional effects but then so does death. The former one can overcome, the latter not. Usually if there is a serious reason to suspect that a child's primary caregiver may have harmed another child I vote get the kid out of there. As long as the children have not been murdered they have a chance to overcome a separation from a parent. And it's not like this child was taken from everybody she knew and thrust in the care of strangers.

JMO but if LE really had reason to think that Terri had something to do with Kyron's disappearance, which they for some reason appear to have suspected, I really can't blame Kaine for getting his surviving child the hell away from her.

How many people would think that their baby is better off in the care of a possible child killer in the name of continuous co-parenting than in the care of a single parent with no murderous intent?

Perhaps this link will help clear your confusion. I'd also like to see any link that supports your claim that Terri is a "possible child killer." Thanks.

http://www.peterhaiman.com/articles/effectsOfSeparationOnYoungChildren.shtml

For decades, judges, attorneys, and even mediators have been making decisions that result in the ill-advised separation of very young children from their parents or other primary caregivers. Usually these decisions are based solely on the needs of the adults involved. Not enough consideration is given to the short- and long-term impact this separation will have on the child.



JMO

 

[Donjeta]

Perhaps this link will help clear your confusion. I'd also like to see any link that supports your claim that Terri is a "possible child killer." Thanks.

http://www.peterhaiman.com/articles/effectsOfSeparationOnYoungChildren.shtml

For decades, judges, attorneys, and even mediators have been making decisions that result in the ill-advised separation of very young children from their parents or other primary caregivers. Usually these decisions are based solely on the needs of the adults involved. Not enough consideration is given to the short- and long-term impact this separation will have on the child.



JMO

Yeah, and for decades the courts and the CPS have also made decisions that attempted to maintain the family unity and avoid separation and far too many times it has ended in the death of a child. We have many cases here on WS.

Thank you for educating me. I did not see anything in that link to change my opinion though, I still think that a separation from a caregiver is preferable to endangering the child's life and health. The children first need to be alive and accounted for before you can worry about how often they smile at the caretaker. Some caregivers are dangerous for the child and you really need to decide on a case by case basis which one is a bigger risk for the children, separation from their caregiver or the presence of an unstable caregiver.


If you read my post again you will see that the reference to a possible child killer was actually a general question as to what parents would do if they believed their child's other parent has killed a child, not a statement about Terri's status as a possible child killer. I don't believe you need to provide a link to a general question, as per WS Terms of Service.

But if you're interested in Terri and the possibility of her involvement, a good source for the links, in temporal order, is:
http://topics.oregonlive.com/tag/kyron horman/index.html I presume that you are new to the case as if you followed it from the beginning you couldn't have missed the tons of links implying that Terri might have had something to do with Kyron's disappearance. Practically everything written about the case has included some reference to Terri and her possible role. There have been several interviews by Kaine, Desiree and Tony saying they think she had something to do with it. There have been stories saying that she may have attempted to hire someone to kill Kaine and speculations about possible motives to hurt Kyron. LE published a flier with Terri's photo asking for information about her movements. Her attorneys seemed to think it's a possibility that she might be charged, judging from the wording in their various motions. Desiree filed a civil suit against Terri. Kaine filed several court documents saying LE has given him reason to suspect Terri is involved. The judge in the civil case called her the prime suspect in Kyron's disappearance. Just recently Terri's friend Dede Spicher said that LE approached her about Terri and wanted her to conduct a sting on her. Right now the lawyers for Kaine and Terri and the LE/ DA are arguing in divorce court about whether Terri's lawyers can depose the criminal investigators in Kyron's disappearance to get information from the investigation.

Now what that all says to me is that there are people who know more about the case than I do who, rightly or wrongly, seem to think that it is possible or even likely that Terri is involved in or responsible for Kyron's disappearance.

We don't know what happened to him or if he's alive or dead so it's possible that there is no child killer in this case but as far as I know the possibility of Kyron being murdered has not been ruled out. Kyron is a child. So, it follows that the person responsible for his disappearance could be a child killer. (I don't have a link for that, it's just logic.)

It has not been proven in court whether Terri was responsible or not but
that seems to be Kyron's parents' prevalent belief. Whether they are right or wrong I don't know but I certainly can't blame anyone for not wanting to share custody with someone they believe already harmed one of the other kids. If one of my children was missing and possibly murdered by my significant other, I would certainly do whatever I can to try and protect my other children from him. A continuous, stable relationship with no separations from the parents is a wonderful thing when the parents are loving and stable but if he had violent tendencies and had the chance to hurt one of the other children, having had a continuous, stable relationship with no separations would be a cold comfort indeed. I don't think I would ever forgive myself.

JMO but I believe few normal loving parents who haven't been twisted by years in an abusive environment or taken part in the abuse themselves would voluntarily choose to leave their children in the care of someone they suspect of orchestrating another sibling's disappearance, or worse. Protecting the children should always come first.