Laura Babcock Murder Trial 12.08.17 - Charge to the Jury - Day 2

[Kamille]

Code now talking about the three men that were called to testify about when they had been in contact with Babcock last. "It was somewhat unclear whether some or all of these three men were escort clients of Ms. Babcock." #LauraBabcock

One of the men who Babcock saw, Dr. Khattak, estimated he saw Babcock around July 10 or 12. However, Code tells the jury, they must look at this in conjunction with phone records, which saw they last had contact by phone right after July 1, and not the week after. #LauraBabcock

"You will have to determine, based on these records and on Dr. Khattak's evidence, as to when his final meeting with Ms. Babcock occurred. " #LauraBabcock

"The defence relies n Dr. Khattak's recollection of the approximate date of his final meeting with Ms. Babcock to infer that she may have changed her phone after July 4, 2012." #LauraBabcock

Code is now going through the testimony of Bradley Dean, who testified that he met Babcock three times through Last Minute Escorts. #LauraBabcock

Dean said that in their second meeting, Babcock seemed distraught and stressed. "She also went into his bathroom once for about five or ten minutes, and after she came out she developed a nosebleed," Code says. "Mr. Dean was suspicious that she had consumed cocaine in the bathroom."
by Adam Carter 4:36 PM

 

[redwing7225]

Not the way I understood the charge. However the judge did not specify if the "aid" came before or after the crime, so I guess technically it could?

Aid...the assistance of MS in getting DM in possession of an illegal gun? IMO
glad I'm not on the jury, I think this will be a long debate for them.
These are just texts that we are able to review, these men spoke frequently one on one...imo, there's more to the story that isn't documented

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

 

[Jasper52]

With 23 pages left to cover today, I'm guessing we are not seeing all the info via the tweets being tweeted. Maybe we are just getting an overview?

 

[Kamille]

Code is now running through the evidence of the owner and the office manager of Last Minute Escorts. The owner, Shlomo Abuhav, testified that Babcock only worked for them two nights.
by Adam Carter 4:49 PM

 

[Kamille]

Aid...the assistance of MS in getting DM in possession of an illegal gun? IMO
glad I'm not on the jury, I think this will be a long debate for them.
These are just texts that we are able to review, these men spoke frequently one on one...imo, there's more to the story that isn't documented

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

Agree, and that's where it gets tricky IMO. We know there are possibly entire text conversations that could not be recovered. We know that these two were together often and that in person communication was likely. So is our (or the jury's) assumption that more may have been discussed between them regarding DM's problem with LB and his plan to "fix that problem" enough to justify convicting MS of first degree murder? Would a judge see it that way on appeal?

:waitasec:

MOO

 

[Kamille]

On my way out for a bit if anyone wants to finish up the AC posts for the day.

http://live.cbc.ca/Event/Laura_Babcock_murder_trial_Dec_8

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Aid...the assistance of MS in getting DM in possession of an illegal gun? IMO
glad I'm not on the jury, I think this will be a long debate for them.
These are just texts that we are able to review, these men spoke frequently one on one...imo, there's more to the story that isn't documented

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

Yes! There is so much more to the story than we will ever know. It is my belief that the closest we will get was outlined in the Crown’s close.

MOO


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Not the way I understood the charge. However the judge did not specify if the "aid" came before or after the crime, so I guess technically it could?

What I’m getting out of the charge is, if the jury thinks that LB died at that hands of DM and MS and they believe that LB is dead, they move up to M2. He then made mention that MS was in the same area as LB and DM at that time. Both phone pings show this and text of “don’t come out front and I’ll be back In 15mins” (sorry if not exact wording)

That to me shows MS was there whether he knew or not that DM was going to kill LB.

 

[DeaconBrodie]

Not the way I understood the charge. However the judge did not specify if the "aid" came before or after the crime, so I guess technically it could?

It has to come before or during the crime otherwise it would be an 'accessory after the fact' charge which is far less serious.

 

[redwing7225]

Yes! There is so much more to the story than we will ever know. It is my belief that the closest we will get was outlined in the Crown’s close.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The jury doesn't want to sit this weekend, if it were me, I'd be having some good stiff drinks. [emoji4]
Justice Code is doing a remarkable job of outlining everything, regardless of knowledge of the TB trial, it would take alot to make me swing in favor of MS.
I won't be able to say this in the technical terms but, after putting all the pieces together, imo both are guilty M1.
No msgs from MS asking questions about iPad, or what they were going to be burning, imo, it's not only what we were able to see/read...it's also what we didn't, knowing they were best buds. All my opinion...and yes, I've been known to not show alot of sympathy towards them in the past...something about that ***** eating grin of MS at the incinerator makes my skin crawl

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

 

[palisadesk]

If this is retroactive, Judge Code Might as well stop.There would be no case without the text messages in this case and the TB case.Could they appeal and walk on this SCoC. ruling?

It's not an all or nothing scenario in any event. Justice Code doesn't need to consider this decision at this time. But, I think it highly likely that one or the other - or both - of these guys will use it in their appeals of their convictions. They would be stupid not to. Of course, we know they are a bit stupid - but their legal teams (assuming DM has one going forward - otherwise, we can't assume an intelligent legal strategy) are not, and would use this case to advance their client's cause.

Frankly, that's a good thing, not a bad thing - it is by testing the implications of the decision in practice that its applicability will be fine tuned and applied. It would not likely mean that "all" texts, letters etc would be excluded, only that some might be - as others have pointed out, there are numerous factors to consider as reported so far.

And what if an appeal court decided that some of that evidence should be disallowed? IMO there's isn't the chance of a snowball in the netherworld that DM would be acquitted. He's clearly dangerous. A new trial could be ordered, but there is plenty of other evidence (and probably plenty of the text/letter evidence would still be allowed) so a repeat conviction would be likely.

Sometimes, when an appeal court throws out a conviction, the Crown declines to retry, because they really don't have much evidence (Baltovich case is a good example). That's not going to happen here. Prison doors won't be swinging wide across the country. It's only recently that this kind of evidence has been so important, and it's good to get the parameters nailed down going forward.

I think we can expect DM to live out his days in secure custody, and MS to be released someday if he takes advantage of opportunities to improve his skills, learn a trade, etc. He has family support so maybe he will. But that's a long time away, too.

 

[banting]

Code is now running through the evidence of the owner and the office manager of Last Minute Escorts. The owner, Shlomo Abuhav, testified that Babcock only worked for them two nights.
by Adam Carter 4:49 PM

Didn't LB buy the dog for DA and then pay the $4,000 vet bill back in Feb/March. Must have had another source?

 

[clefk27]

What I’m getting out of the charge is, if the jury thinks that LB died at that hands of DM and MS and they believe that LB is dead, they move up to M2. He then made mention that MS was in the same area as LB and DM at that time. Both phone pings show this and text of “don’t come out front and I’ll be back In 15mins” (sorry if not exact wording)

That to me shows MS was there whether he knew or not that DM was going to kill LB.

MS:
Main contact with MWJ from the get go.
Helped with procurement of the gun.
Was in on the planning / preparation of both incinerators.
Test it with 'something with bones in it' - he knows what it's for.
"Laura thing" text -> no explanation needed.
Was at Maple Gate at alleged time of murder.
"Don't be out front" text implies he's in on the plan.
Destroyed mattress evidence murder happened at Maple Gate.
Renames iPad next morning, no questions asked.

I won't get into the after the murder events - reams and reams of incriminating evidence, not least of which includes the garage admission of murder.

M1, beyond a reasonable doubt, no question..

 

[billandrew]

As much as I'd like to see MS convicted for this, just for his likely knowledge that murder and mayhem were in their future and he probably didn't care who became a victim, I don't want it to be based on assumptions because of a murder that he was definitely in on that happened almost a year later. IOW, I don't want to see him granted a new trial, or walking altogether eventually on this one, by winning on appeal.

I would still like for those who believe that the circumstantial evidence against him in this murder only is obvious, to post up their version of the evidence that stands against him for M1.

MOO

My take:

MS's aiding in acquiring the incinerator and such indicates planning for future murders. We don't know that he was in on a plan to kill LB specifically, but IMO his close relationship with DM at the time makes it likely that he was. That's JMO and I'm doing my best to ignore the TB evidence. DM and MS had quite a bromance going on at the time. They lived in the same house and made plans to be ruthless together in a general criminal sense. To do that required a high level of trust between them. They had to be able to share their intimate secrets. Based on that, when I factor in everything else that happened around LB's murder, it's highly likely in my view that MS knew about DM's intent to kill LB.

Now looking at the events of July 3: DM returns home from his 1 hour mission around 8:20pm. After that, there are no texts between DM and MS until 12:40am. Neither of them used their phones at all. It's an odd 4 hour window of silence. IMO that suggests they were doing stuff together in that time. What, exactly? Just chilling together? I think LB got murdered. The evidence is too vague to put together an accurate sequence events, but IMO MS is just too close to the fire (figuratively and, I suppose, literally) at every step of the way in this murder, and that's why I think M1 for MS is justified.

 

[saulgoodman]

Maybe we should be looking at what they ( DM, MS and CN) are not texting on July 3rd and 4th.
MS must have had some idea why he wasn't to be outside. Later, MS text DM 'lets get some food after, its all good' After what? What is all good? He knows DM is on a mission. Was MS on lookout duty that night? or abetting DM? They were in the same house.

The 4th DM text MS 10am a pic of rolled tarp "rolled my 1st spliff' and when MS wakes up at 3:20pm he Text DM 'how was the spliff?' and MS does NOT ask what DM rolled up. Does MS know what DM rolled up? Sure seems like it.
DM hasn't slept in 2 days.
There are no Text messages about the newly acquired I pad. MS must have seen what was being deleted.

CN says 'see you Friday, have fun doing big things<wink>' What big things, what does CN know? Why all of a sudden would CN trust DM.
The Crown is fortunate to have this much information. Impossible to have all communications between them all.

Its what, is not being said, that makes them sinister.

MOO

 

[Mostly_Listening]

I know we’re talking around it but am not sure if we’ve clarified whether knowledge and prep for “someone in the future” to be murdered is to be treated the same as knowing who and when. If the same, it’s not relevant to me whether MS knew long or shortly before about Laura, or even if he wasn’t caught up until later that night/morning. Then I could easily get to M1.

Apologies if someone has clarified this and I’ve missed it.

 

[Casta]

I know we’re talking around it but am not sure if we’ve clarified whether knowledge and prep for “someone in the future” to be murdered is to be treated the same as knowing who and when. If the same, it’s not relevant to me whether MS knew long or shortly before about Laura, or even if he wasn’t caught up until later that night/morning. Then I could easily get to M1.

Apologies if someone has clarified this and I’ve missed it.

Here's the relevant quote:

The further issue here, Code says, is whether or not Smich was aiding or abetting a planned deliberate murder.
by Adam Carter 12:51 PM

Smich would have to know Millard was planning and deliberating to murder Babcock, that he intended to assist or encourage Millard in carrying it out, and that he actually did some act to assist or encourage that murder, Code says, to be found guilty of first-degree murder.
by Adam Carter 12:52 PM

Here's the crux on first-degree murder. This is key. "If you are satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that Mr. Millard was the principal in the murder and that he both planned and deliberated on that murder, then you would find Mr. Millard guilty as charged of first-degree murder," Code says.

"If you are satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that Mr. Smich aided or abetted a planned and deliberate murder committed by Mr. Millard, then you would also find Mr. Smich guilty of first degree murder."
by Adam Carter 12:58 PM

 

[Shaz14]

I know we’re talking around it but am not sure if we’ve clarified whether knowledge and prep for “someone in the future” to be murdered is to be treated the same as knowing who and when. If the same, it’s not relevant to me whether MS knew long or shortly before about Laura, or even if he wasn’t caught up until later that night/morning. Then I could easily get to M1.

Apologies if someone has clarified this and I’ve missed it.

I think it’s the same. If DM was planning a murder then he was planning a murder. I don’t think it matters if at the time of the planning he hadn’t yet decided who would be murdered. Eventually he must have decided who it would be before he actually committed the murder. IMO. I hope that makes sense...

 

[Inspector_North]

MS:
Main contact with MWJ from the get go.
Helped with procurement of the gun.
Was in on the planning / preparation of both incinerators.
Test it with 'something with bones in it' - he knows what it's for.
"Laura thing" text -> no explanation needed.
Was at Maple Gate at alleged time of murder.
"Don't be out front" text implies he's in on the plan.
Destroyed mattress evidence murder happened at Maple Gate.
Renames iPad next morning, no questions asked.

I won't get into the after the murder events - reams and reams of incriminating evidence, not least of which includes the garage admission of murder.

M1, beyond a reasonable doubt, no question..

BBM

I believe the Crown explained this one was to ensure MM didn't see LB, and possibly vice versa. Take that one step further, and for me it helps explain some of the lack of evidence around MS's involvement from 7:00 pm to after midnight. He most likely had two things to attend to. Assist DM, and keep MM from witnessing. MOO

 

[Sphinx]

BBM

I believe the Crown explained this one was to ensure MM didn't see LB, and possibly vice versa. Take that one step further, and for me it helps explain some of the lack of evidence around MS's involvement from 7:00 pm to after midnight. He most likely had two things to attend to. Assist DM, and keep MM from witnessing. MOO

DM always had lookouts for missions. I think MS was not only making sure that MM was busy listening to music, watching tv etc. but perhaps he made sure that Wm. a friend, a customer for drugs, Rabbit, or even a neighbour did not interrupt, or witness anything as DM was killing Laura, rolling her in a tarp, then loading the body into the van. He may have also more or less kept watch to make sure Laura could not escape from the house if she sensed danger. IMO