Laura Babcock Murder Trial - *GUILTY*

[ABro]

My memory is that her parents did make a missing persons report, but somewhat later than SL. I doubt it would have made a difference - plus you have to wonder how far they would have got if they had interviewed DM at that time. Would they have had enough evidence even to get search warrants?

Well, if it was enough to make Shawn Lerner suspicious, one would hope it would make trained professional detectives suspicious. And if they didn't have enough for a warrant to get the cell towers Millard's phone had pinged after talking to him, they could have actually talked to Laura's friends. It seems like Karoline, who was happy to talk, would have given them some evidence which would have sealed the deal on a warrant.

What's the deal with making excuses for bad police?

FWIW the police did investigate David Austerweil for Laura's disappearance but he had an alibi and then they appear to have dropped the ball.

 

[saulgoodman]

Well, if it was enough to make Shawn Lerner suspicious, one would hope it would make trained professional detectives suspicious. And if they didn't have enough for a warrant to get the cell towers Millard's phone had pinged after talking to him, they could have actually talked to Laura's friends. It seems like Karoline, who was happy to talk, would have given them some evidence which would have sealed the deal on a warrant.

What's the deal with making excuses for bad police?

FWIW the police did investigate David Austerweil for Laura's disappearance but he had an alibi and then they appear to have dropped the ball.

Interesting you have more to add since the airing of Fifth Estate, instead of making excuses for Carbone. No stone unturned.

 

[ABro]

Interesting you have more to add since the airing of Fifth Estate, instead of making excuses for Carbone. No stone unturned.

Once again, Carbone was not involved in the initial investigations. He had nothing to do with them. He came on board post-Bosma in 2013.

The only thing I fault him for his towing the TPS line at that awful press conference where BTW you can hear me questioning him.

In 2014, wrote a major feature for the Grid (when it existed) on the TPS failures in both the Babcock and Wayne Millard cases. Fifth Estate called me about it and I helped them get background info. I also wrote about the investigations in my book.

So, tell me again what you're mad about and what you say I did wrong.

 

[saulgoodman]

Once again, Carbone was not involved in the initial investigations. He had nothing to do with them. He came on board post-Bosma in 2013.

The only thing I fault him for his towing the TPS line at that awful press conference where BTW you can hear me questioning him.

In 2014, wrote a major feature for the Grid (when it existed) on the TPS failures in both the Babcock and Wayne Millard cases. Fifth Estate called me about it and I helped them get background info. I also wrote about the investigations in my book.

So, tell me again what you're mad about and what you say I did wrong.

My point has always been, that the TPS did a very poor investigation if any at all when they first were handed the missing persons report of LB. I find it very laughable, only added excuses for Mike saying Div 21 did a thorough investigation. Could have had great discussions when I first brought this forward. The Fifth Estate episode was great, nothing new. Other than how SB is now wondering how her life could be different, had TPS done a thorough investigation back in 2012.

 

[clefk27]

Once again, Carbone was not involved in the initial investigations. He had nothing to do with them. He came on board post-Bosma in 2013.

The only thing I fault him for his towing the TPS line at that awful press conference where BTW you can hear me questioning him.

In 2014, wrote a major feature for the Grid (when it existed) on the TPS failures in both the Babcock and Wayne Millard cases. Fifth Estate called me about it and I helped them get background info. I also wrote about the investigations in my book.

So, tell me again what you're mad about and what you say I did wrong.

ABro, you’re one of the heros in this story both through your questioning of LE and chronicalling of the sordid and convoluted details.
Carbone, by choosing to obfuscate at the press conference, is decidedly no hero. More like the fall guy. Still waiting for TPS to come clean, apologize and roll some heads. Not sure if it will ever happen. Must be hard for them esp. after it was HPS who got these guys, making the much larger TPS next door look like fools.

 

[Grey-St]

ABro, you’re one of the heros in this story both through your questioning of LE and chronicalling of the sordid and convoluted details.
Carbone, by choosing to obfuscate at the press conference, is decidedly no hero. More like the fall guy. Still waiting for TPS to come clean, apologize and roll some heads. Not sure if it will ever happen. Must be hard for them esp. after it was HPS who got these guys, making the much larger TPS next door look like fools.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Was Carbone involved in the initial investigation? No he wasn't. But after taking over the case, and stating that the divisional officers performed a thorough investigation, I gotta say, I was pretty angry. Him and his team helped secure charges and ultimately convictions in LB's case, for that I am grateful and will not forget, but I certainly don't view them as heroic here.

 

[ABro]

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Was Carbone involved in the initial investigation? No he wasn't. But after taking over the case, and stating that the divisional officers performed a thorough investigation, I gotta say, I was pretty angry. Him and his team helped secure charges and ultimately convictions in LB's case, for that I am grateful and will not forget, but I certainly don't view them as heroic here.

Here's the thing, though. Toronto police is like any big police bureaucracy.

Some cops are good, Some are lazy. Some are corrupt. And they almost always cover for each other.

It was a classicly stupid cop strategy to tell the press that the original investigations were "thorough" when they were both shoddy. And now the Fifth Estate has taken TPS to task for it and Carbone bore the brunt. It's too bad for him but he was part of the team that went ahead with that ridiculous statement so that's the way it goes. Maybe they'll smarten up and think twice about that kind of *advertiser censored*s covering next time around.

But to get mad at Jill Cameron for thanking Carbone and his team for leaving "no stone unturned" is just silly. What would you want her to do? Ignore them? Denounce them?

If Carbone has to take the rap for being part of a stupid press strategy, can't he at least get the praise for an investigation that led to a "no body" conviction?

Getting mad at Carbone is easy while getting to the bottom of what went wrong and ensuring it doesn't happen again is tough because the Toronto police still don't want people to know.

The truth is they didn't ignore Laura's disappearance but they looked into the wrong guy and then completely dropped the ball.

And what about Wayne? Shot through the eye with an illegal handgun and the investigator in charge calls it suicide and wraps up the case?

But if you look at the situation, you can see that there were clearly cops who weren't happy about the Wayne situation, which is why they leaked details to the media after Tim Bosma was killed in May 2013:

http://torontosun.com/2013/05/16/ti...urce/wcm/63f66e3c-0d43-441a-b905-9d5b863bedce

And you can bet Ravin Pillay is going to make the Toronto cops look very bad at that trial.

 

[ABro]

My point has always been, that the TPS did a very poor investigation if any at all when they first were handed the missing persons report of LB. I find it very laughable, only added excuses for Mike saying Div 21 did a thorough investigation. Could have had great discussions when I first brought this forward. The Fifth Estate episode was great, nothing new. Other than how SB is now wondering how her life could be different, had TPS done a thorough investigation back in 2012.

Oh c'mon, fess up. Your point was to say I made excuses for TPS and Carbone when I've never done any such thing. Here's what you said:

Interesting you have more to add since the airing of Fifth Estate, instead of making excuses for Carbone. No stone unturned.

And here's what I said in the 2014 Grid article I referenced:

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/millard2.pdf

And here is the except which asks the same question the Fifth Estate later posed:

While the Hamilton Police have been handling the investigation into
Bosma’s death, Toronto Police Services has jurisdiction in Babcock’s
disappearance and Wayne Millard’s death. Family and friends of
Babcock have voiced concerns about how TPS dealt with her case.
Journalists have also been critical. Even the typically cop-friendly
Toronto Sun criticized homicide detective Mike Carbone for praising
the Babcock investigators as “thorough” and “very diligent,” given the
evidence of delays and confusion in the investigation.
Since last May, when I started covering the story of Dellen Millard,
I have spoken extensively with friends and relations of his alleged
victims and filed several access to information requests to better
understand the process the police undertake when dealing with
missing persons and suicides. My research raised serious questions
about the investigations, whether basic protocols and procedures were
followed, and, more significantly, whether Bosma’s death could have
been prevented.

 

[Grey-St]

Here's the thing, though. Toronto police is like any big police bureaucracy.

Some cops are good, Some are lazy. Some are corrupt. And they almost always cover for each other.

It was a classicly stupid cop strategy to tell the press that the original investigations were "thorough" when they were both shoddy. And now the Fifth Estate has taken TPS to task for it and Carbone bore the brunt. It's too bad for him but he was part of the team that went ahead with that ridiculous statement so that's the way it goes. Maybe they'll smarten up and think twice about that kind of *advertiser censored*s covering next time around.

But to get mad at Jill Cameron for thanking Carbone and his team for leaving "no stone unturned" is just silly. What would you want her to do? Ignore them? Denounce them?

If Carbone has to take the rap for being part of a stupid press strategy, can't he at least get the praise for an investigation that led to a "no body" conviction?

Getting mad at Carbone is easy while getting to the bottom of what went wrong and ensuring it doesn't happen again is tough because the Toronto police still don't want people to know.

The truth is they didn't ignore Laura's disappearance but they looked into the wrong guy and then completely dropped the ball.

And what about Wayne? Shot through the eye with an illegal handgun and the investigator in charge calls it suicide and wraps up the case?

But if you look at the situation, you can see that there were clearly cops who weren't happy about the Wayne situation, which is why they leaked details to the media after Tim Bosma was killed in May 2013:

http://torontosun.com/2013/05/16/ti...urce/wcm/63f66e3c-0d43-441a-b905-9d5b863bedce

And you can bet Ravin Pillay is going to make the Toronto cops look very bad at that trial.

Yes, I can get behind this.

I suppose I fault Carbone for adopting to the silent code of conduct where "they almost always cover for eachother". I just expect more from a police force. He would have gained a tremendous amount of respect, in my opinion, if he said that mistakes were made in the initial investigations. Mistakes happen (although these were a doozy) and no one can control the individual actions of each officer in each division. It's about acknowledging mistakes, correcting them in the future, so such things don't continue to happen. Even the policies and procedures involved in missing persons cases are beyond flawed in my opinion, and coupled with human error or incompetencies, it's just bad all around.

I certainly don't fault Jill Cameron for making the statement she made. It was the investigative skills of Carbone and his team that secured these convictions, and will hopefully do so again for WM. I'd imagine that there were some folks within TPS who were disappointed with that initial investigation also. To just not investigate how an illegal firearm was procured? Very strange.

 

[saulgoodman]

Oh c'mon, fess up. Your point was to say I made excuses for TPS and Carbone when I've never done any such thing. ::

I was at that press conference and asked a lot of questions about the phone bill. I can't tell you how many times I tried to get police to answer my questions about the Wayne and Laura investigations. I filed freedom of information requests.

Carbone was sent on what I've previously called a "suicide mission" at that news conference. He towed the TPS line about two investigations that were badly mishandled.

That's great! Sorry I have never read your blogs. I know you have spent countless hours and know more then most of us of this horrendous case.
So tell me what I said wrong when you first replied to my original post about Jill and Mike's comments? You clearly knew I was referring to the original investigation of LB. However the TPS in 2013 did a phenomenal job as did Jill throughout the Trials.
Mike had mentioned several times that Div 22 did a thorough investigation back in 2012. Why should he lie? “Suicide mission” makes it ok for once respectable detective to cover-up a badly mishandled investigation? I think NOT. Do you think Mike will make that mistake again? Yes, you were there. The investigation was a joke. Heck, it would be more believable to say you, yourself did a better investigation. And you probably did!
Div 22 should be held accountable. Why should any of us believe what an Officer of the law has to say, after Mike's comments? Because apparently, its ok for them to lie?
And that's exactly what is wrong with our society, today. Accountable for your actions.

Thankfully in the end, justice prevailed in this case.
Should my daughter go missing, I pray the LE does a better job than Div 22 did with the Laura Babcock investigation.

 

[Monger]

Today there were 3 more CanLii documents added for DM and MS. These are the new documents:

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...AAQAOZGVsbGVuIG1pbGxhcmQAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=4

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...AQAOZGVsbGVuIG1pbGxhcmQAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=15

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...AAQAOZGVsbGVuIG1pbGxhcmQAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=3

The last link is the one that some of us have seen before, but disappeared during the trial where DM kept trying to delay the trial, and get legal aid. They put it back up now, in case anyone missed it.

 

[Monger]

Here are the items I found interesting from the CanLii Document dated 12/2017:

[10] I had ruled that the acquisition of the gun was admissible for the above purposes after hearing a pre-trial Motion in September 2017. See: R. v. Millard and Smich, 2017 ONSC 5928 (CanLII) at paras. 17-32. At the same time, I excluded evidence that Ward-Jackson had previously sold Millard another handgun (a Walther PPK 9 mm). This earlier gun trafficking transaction took place on February 10, 2012, some five months before Ms. Babcock’s disappearance. The purchase of this earlier handgun appeared to be related to a different and broader criminal conspiracy between Millard and Smich. It was highly prejudicial, inferring that the two accused were engaged in other serious criminal activities in addition to the Babcock murder. Its legitimate relevance to the Babcock murder was that it showed that Millard and Ward-Jackson already had an established gun trafficking relationship at the time when Millard tried to contact Ward-Jackson on June 30, 2012. This was also the time when Millard was about to meet up with Ms. Babcock. Accordingly, the inference that Millard was looking for a murder weapon was an issue of some importance. However, this legitimate probative value was outweighed by the prejudicial effect of Millard’s and Smich’s broader criminal activities and, in the result, the evidence of the earlier gun sale was excluded. See: R. v. Millard and Smich, supra at paras. 33-38.

[20] The answer to Millard’s two concerns is two-fold. First, it was Millard who chose to raise the issue with Ward-Jackson in cross-examination as to who initiated the gun sale in late June and early July of 2012. This was a dangerous area to enter. Ward-Jackson was a witness with significant challenges to his credibility and reliability. Furthermore, the topic of who initiated the discussions about a gun sale inevitably leads to questions about their pre-existing relationship, which was a gun trafficking relationship. In short, having chosen to enter into this risky area in cross-examination, Millard cannot now insulate the false evidence that emerged from any correction during re-examination.

So it appears that gun trafficking was the broader criminal conspiracy that code referred to in what he should consider at sentencing?This next part is about the 3rd guy in the garage (Jim Lewis) when Smich was rapping who didn't testify. I wondered why, now we know.

[28] The Crown objected to the closing addresses, in particular to Mr. Dungey’s address. Amongst other objections, the Crown sought an instruction concerning the inferences that can and cannot be drawn from the Crown’s decision not to call Christina Noudga and James Lewis. The Crown advised the Court that Mr. Lewis had refused to give a statement to the police about Smich’s alleged statements made in the garage. Mr. Dungey acknowledged that there was no statement from Mr. Lewis. As for Ms. Noudga, it is apparent that she actively obstructed justice together with Millard after the murder of Tim Bosma. In fact, she pleaded guilty to this offence. She also responded to Millard’s letters, including referring to him as a “sweet serial killer” in one letter that she apparently decided, on further reflection, not to send. I instructed the jury that there was “no basis for any adverse inference to be drawn” from the Crown’s decision not to call these two witnesses.

Above snipped from this document: https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...AQAOZGVsbGVuIG1pbGxhcmQAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=15

 

[Monger]

The recommended prospective juror questions per CanLii document here: https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...AAQAOZGVsbGVuIG1pbGxhcmQAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=4

1. Have you seen, heard or read anything about this case, or about these two accused (Mr. Millard and Mr. Smich), in any form of media, for example, from the radio, the television, the internet, newspapers or magazines, or through discussions with others, including discussions on social media?
(If the answer to question 1 is yes)
2. As a result of anything you may have seen, heard, read, discussed or communicated, have you formed an opinion about the possible guilt or innocence of Mr. Millard and/or Mr. Smich?
(If the answer to question 2 is yes)
3. Would you describe the opinion you have formed as strong?
(If the answer to any of questions 1, 2 or 3 is yes)
4. Would you be able to set aside any information you may have received or any opinion you may have formed, about this case or about Mr. Millard and/or Mr. Smich, and decide this case solely on the evidence heard in court and on the instructions of the trial judge?
(Regardless of the answers to the previous four questions)
5. Would you be able to follow the trial judge’s instructions not to conduct online research or read or listen to news media accounts about the case or about Mr. Millard and/or Mr. Smith?
6. Would you be able to follow the trial judge’s instructions not to allow your family or friends or acquaintances to give you information they have obtained or to provide you with opinions they have formed about the case or about Mr. Millard and/or Mr. Smich?

 

[jash]

Today there were 3 more CanLii documents added for DM and MS. These are the new documents:

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...AAQAOZGVsbGVuIG1pbGxhcmQAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=4

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...AQAOZGVsbGVuIG1pbGxhcmQAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=15

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...AAQAOZGVsbGVuIG1pbGxhcmQAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=3

The last link is the one that some of us have seen before, but disappeared during the trial where DM kept trying to delay the trial, and get legal aid. They put it back up now, in case anyone missed it.

From the second link:

...the question of who initiated the June 30th to July 3, 2012 discussions about acquiring the .32 calibre revolver was a disputed and important fact in issue at trial. The Crown’s position was that Millard initiated this request for a gun, as part of his plan to kill Ms. Babcock. The position advanced by Millard was that he was looking for cocaine, that Ward-Jackson initiated the discussions about the gun, that the acquisition of the gun was simply an unforeseen opportunity that arose, and that it had nothing to do with his upcoming meeting with Ms. Babcock.

In his letter to CN, the one where he's giving her the story about what happened the night Laura disappeared, DM writes that they (he and she) don't like coke. Maybe this was part of his frame MS narrative -- DM, being the nice and generous guy that he is, went out to pick up some cocaine for MS... *rolleyes*

So glad the judge wasn't buying any of the garbage DM was trying to sell.

 

[Grey-St]

From the second link:



In his letter to CN, the one where he's giving her the story about what happened the night Laura disappeared, DM writes that they (he and she) don't like coke. Maybe this was part of his frame MS narrative -- DM, being the nice and generous guy that he is, went out to pick up some cocaine for MS... *rolleyes*

So glad the judge wasn't buying any of the garbage DM was trying to sell.

Just a complete, sociopathic liar in every possible way.

 

[hopingforjustice]

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...AAQAOZGVsbGVuIG1pbGxhcmQAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=4

[6] When the Bosma trial ended in June 2013, there was another emotionally powerful press conference where Bosma’s widow spoke. Needless to say, she and her daughter have attracted a great deal of public sympathy and the two accused have been vilified. Two books have been written about the case and two television documentaries have analysed the case. Although the media coverage, and related internet searches were at their most intense during 2013 (at the time of the Bosma trial), media interest in Millard and Smich has continued until the present. This is partly due to the fact that the present trial, relating to the alleged murder of Ms. Babcock, has been pending in this court for the past two years.

BBM

2 books?? 2 Documentaries? What am I missing? I know of ABro's book and the 5th Estate docs. Can anyone enlighten me on the 2nd one of each? TIA

 

[Grey-St]

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...AAQAOZGVsbGVuIG1pbGxhcmQAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=4

[6] When the Bosma trial ended in June 2013, there was another emotionally powerful press conference where Bosma’s widow spoke. Needless to say, she and her daughter have attracted a great deal of public sympathy and the two accused have been vilified. Two books have been written about the case and two television documentaries have analysed the case. Although the media coverage, and related internet searches were at their most intense during 2013 (at the time of the Bosma trial), media interest in Millard and Smich has continued until the present. This is partly due to the fact that the present trial, relating to the alleged murder of Ms. Babcock, has been pending in this court for the past two years.

2 books?? 2 Documentaries? What am I missing? I know of ABro's book and the 5th Estate docs. Can anyone enlighten me on the 2nd one of each? TIA

BBM, rsbm

Lol, I'm sorry, but is someone suggesting they shouldn't be vilified?

And maybe if they didn't murder multiple people, there wouldn't be multiple trials, and unrelenting public interest? Is this a Millard and Smich pity party?

To answer your question, the only book I know of is ABro's Dark Ambition, and the two television "documentaries" were likely the the two Fifth Estate episodes. I'm unsure of the last book.

 

[hopingforjustice]

Lol, I'm sorry, but is someone suggesting they shouldn't be vilified?

And maybe if they didn't murder multiple people, there wouldn't be multiple trials, and unrelenting public interest? Is this a Millard and Smich pity party?

To answer your question, the only book I know of is ABro's Dark Ambition, and the two television "documentaries" were likely the the two Fifth Estate episodes. I'm unsure of the last book.

Thanks for your response. The BBM was strictly in reference to the books and docs...nothing else by me..

 

[Grey-St]

Thanks for your response. The BBM was strictly in reference to the books and docs...nothing else by me..

My apologies, that was me folks!

I searched for the second book and unfortunately could not find anything. What I did find though, is that DM is still listed as a Canadian Aircraft Pilot, instead of a murderer.

 

[nuff]

My apologies, that was me folks!

I searched for the second book and unfortunately could not find anything. What I did find though, is that DM is still listed as a Canadian Aircraft Pilot, instead of a murderer.

I don't think "murderer" is a profession - even if DM tried his best to become one