Laura Babcock Murder Trial - *GUILTY*

[palisadesk]

Well prison isn’t fun! Can’t imagine anyone doing very well in the clink! Especially ones that kill innocent Family men and women!

In point of fact, one group of people do very well in prison -- better than they do outside - those with FAS (fetal alcohol syndrome) or its partner, FAE (fetal alcohol effects - a distinction without a significant difference). Nearly 40% of long-term inmates in Canadian prisoners are believed to be in this group according to some research, and because FAS people have great difficulty with cause and effect, anticipating consequences, can`t learn from experience and have very poor social understanding, the structure of prison benefits them greatly and they often become `model prisoners.``

DM certainly has many characteristics of someone with FAS, whether or not a clinical diagnosis was ever made. He will probably do quite will in the pen - it`s full of people like him, some of whom will fall under his spell and give him a chance to revel in being Dellen the Felon again. Most murderers are assigned to the general population, and many have killed partners or spouses, so that in itself is unlikely to threaten his well-being the way being a child-killer or child-rapist would do.

On another topic, I can`t find musicaljoke`s post about the judge possibly giving MS a concurrent sentence because he believes in MS innocence (sorry if I`m not quoting it quite right musicaljoke) but I don`t think we have any reason to think Justice Code believed MS to be innocent, only that he differentiated between DM and MS in the nature of the evidence and the volume of same concerning them. I would not be surprised if MS did receive a concurrent sentence, based on that difference, the fact he has some factors in his favour, as demonstrated by his using incarceration to improve his education and skills, and that he has support of his family (or some of it - no word on his mostly absent dad). Should he learn a trade and fulfill other conditions, he might meet parole eligibility criteria, but that would still entail a graduated program and very strict supervision which would never completely stop. Community safety is always the top priority of the parole board (or is supposed to be); victims`families have input but don`t make the final decision.

By and large, parole boards, like juries, do a good job and I`m not worried they would release DM under any circumstances, or MS without stringent oversight and compelling evidence of his growth and development in a positive direction.

 

[LadyL]

[bbm]

such as?

In point of fact, one group of people do very well in prison -- better than they do outside - those with FAS (fetal alcohol syndrome) or its partner, FAE (fetal alcohol effects - a distinction without a significant difference). Nearly 40% of long-term inmates in Canadian prisoners are believed to be in this group according to some research, and because FAS people have great difficulty with cause and effect, anticipating consequences, can`t learn from experience and have very poor social understanding, the structure of prison benefits them greatly and they often become `model prisoners.``

DM certainly has many characteristics of someone with FAS, whether or not a clinical diagnosis was ever made. He will probably do quite will in the pen - it`s full of people like him, some of whom will fall under his spell and give him a chance to revel in being Dellen the Felon again. Most murderers are assigned to the general population, and many have killed partners or spouses, so that in itself is unlikely to threaten his well-being the way being a child-killer or child-rapist would do.

On another topic, I can`t find musicaljoke`s post about the judge possibly giving MS a concurrent sentence because he believes in MS innocence (sorry if I`m not quoting it quite right musicaljoke) but I don`t think we have any reason to think Justice Code believed MS to be innocent, only that he differentiated between DM and MS in the nature of the evidence and the volume of same concerning them. I would not be surprised if MS did receive a concurrent sentence, based on that difference, the fact he has some factors in his favour, as demonstrated by his using incarceration to improve his education and skills, and that he has support of his family (or some of it - no word on his mostly absent dad). Should he learn a trade and fulfill other conditions, he might meet parole eligibility criteria, but that would still entail a graduated program and very strict supervision which would never completely stop. Community safety is always the top priority of the parole board (or is supposed to be); victims`families have input but don`t make the final decision.

By and large, parole boards, like juries, do a good job and I`m not worried they would release DM under any circumstances, or MS without stringent oversight and compelling evidence of his growth and development in a positive direction.

 

[Stumper]

I could be wrong because I have never interacted with MS, but I do believe between DM and MS, MS has shown some remorse
I have read that while in prison he has had remorse. The people saying it could be just doing it because they supported him, or it could be real.
If he has shown remorse I don't have a problem with a concurrent sentence, he will still be in his 50's before he could get parole and both families of victims will be at the parole hearings I am sure so will not mean he would get parole.
DM obviously will get consecutive because all the jurors recommended it.

I am sure he is remorseful about having 2 life sentences ahead of him but as for showing actual remorse for his crimes and victims.. Where is the evidence??

He has it in his hands to alleviate so much suffering to his victims family and friends by admitting to his crimes and filling in the details of their loved ones last minutes in this earth but all he has ever provided is see through convienient lies to protect his own *advertiser censored* and improve his situation at any cost. I can’t think of one thing he has ever said or done that wasn’t completely in his own best interest

That to me is the exact opposite of anything resembling actual remorse

 

[ABro]

I’m no psychologist but MS grew up without a father in the home and DM, unfortunately, became like a father or big brother figure to him. While DM‘s Evil tendencies flow from his very nature, one may speculate that MS’s evil of more of a nurture phenomenon. He has completed his high school equivalence with only exemplary comments from his teachers.
MS may actually have the potential to be rehabilitated.
JMO

Be careful of the story about how the Smich family was deserted by the father. It was spun, after all, by the same guy who lied through his teeth on the witness stand. I can assure you it's not that simple at all.

Smich is every bit a psychopath. And I'm far from convinced he has the potential to be rehabilitated.

Please tell me you weren't one of the chorus of people chiming in about how bad Marlena Meneses was if you're now claiming Smich has the potential to be rehabilitated when he has -- in contrast to Meneses -- never shown an ounce of remorse.

I'm gobsmacked by how significant people find that high school diploma. What else is he going to do in custody? They don't allow video games.

 

[melb]

Such a sad case. My heart goes out to LB's family

 

[Stumper]

Are you sure DM was the principle person based on who purchased the gun and incinerator?

BBM


'From Smich to Millard: “Like I said, this is only the beginning. I’m makin us a team, an army. You kno. We will be proper soon. Nobody can f--- with Say10 and Dman.”'

I say it was a partnership deserving of sharing consecutive sentencing. MOO

Exactly this imo

 

[ABro]

And Smich is the one who gets up on the witness stand and lies through his teeth at the Bosma trial. That was something even Millard didn't have the balls to do.

I find it strange that so many people accept that Smich was the dupe who got pushed around when the evidence doesn't support this theory.

Rather, the "Smich as dupe" theory appears to be based on the hope that only one person could be so evil, not two.

As Craig FRaser said, Smich was not a patsy but a full partner in crime. He was right.

 

[Jasper52]

I can't wait to hear Justice Code admonish these two come sentencing !!!

 

[Stumper]

Be careful of the story about how the Smich family was deserted by the father. It was spun, after all, by the same guy who lied through his teeth on the witness stand. I can assure you it's not that simple at all.

Smich is every bit a psychopath. And I'm far from convinced he has the potential to be rehabilitated.

Please tell me you weren't one of the chorus of people chiming in about how bad Marlena Meneses was if you're now claiming Smich has the potential to be rehabilitated when he has -- in contrast to Meneses -- never shown an ounce of remorse.

I'm gobsmacked by how significant people find that high school diploma. What else is he going to do in custody? They don't allow video games.

I agree. Smich displays so many characteristics of a psychopath. Completely self absorbed, No empathy, ruthlessness for personal gain, ability to lie without conscience getting in the way. I think in many ways he was the more calculated of the two.. the big difference is that he just didn’t have access to the capital DM did or the opportunities that provided so he had to hitch his sail to Millard for a time to achieve his goals. He was using DM every bit as much as DM was using him. His texts for drugs, booze and food reek of well honed manipulation.

It seems that many are lured into the narrative of the poor little daft follower from the wrong side of the tracks who ended up being played by his rich educated friend. Smich and Dungey played this card to its max and the media has sure spun it as it does make for a compelling tail.

The truth is that MS grew up in a good subdivision in pricey Oakville and had a dad with a very good income. His sister has worked hard and gained incredible success for a young girl her age. He wasn’t a millionaire but was by no means “from the other side of the tracks” with no hope or means for a future. He showed a surprising level of intelligence, quickness and Chrisma on the stand during the TB trail. That so many were drawn in to a state of sympathy by his obviously bs story tailor made to circle between the facts of the case is a testament his manipulative ability.

MS choose his path and gleefully took each step. The violent rape and murder rap’s, the human dissection video, the thefts, the incinerator with that huge smile of obvious pleasure, the bragging, the obvious excitement before and the celebration after TB, the straight face lies on the stand in front of his victims widow and family..

MOO

 

[ABro]

I agree. Smich displays so many characteristics of a psychopath. Completely self absorbed, No empathy, ruthlessness for personal gain, ability to lie without conscience getting in the way. I think in many ways he was the more calculated of the two.. the big difference is that he just didn’t have access to the capital DM did or the opportunities that provided so he had to hitch his sail to Millard for a time to achieve his goals. He was using DM every bit as much as DM was using him. His texts for drugs, booze and food reek of well honed manipulation.

It seems that many are lured into the narrative of the poor little daft follower from the wrong side of the tracks who ended up being played by his rich educated friend. Smich and Dungey played this card to its max and the media has sure spun it as it does make for a compelling tail.

The truth is that MS grew up in a good subdivision in pricey Oakville and had a dad with a very good income. His sister has worked hard and gained incredible success for a young girl her age. He wasn’t a millionaire but was by no means “from the other side of the tracks” with no hope or means for a future. He showed a surprising level of intelligence, quickness and Chrisma on the stand during the TB trail. That so many were drawn in to a state of sympathy by his obviously bs story tailor made to circle between the facts of the case is a testament his manipulative ability.

MS choose his path and gleefully took each step. The violent rape and murder rap’s, the human dissection video, the thefts, the incinerator with that huge smile of obvious pleasure, the bragging, the obvious excitement before and the celebration after TB, the straight face lies on the stand in front of his victims widow and family..

MOO

Smich-as-dupe is a simple narrative which is part of its appeal, but it's full of giant gaping holes, which is why two juries have refused to go along with it.

I've asked myself over and over again if it's a need to believe in good over evil or just a need to be right about one's "gut feelings" that keeps so many people defending Smich, the aspiring serial killer.

I'd like to believe it's the former but when I see so many people beat up on Marlena Meneses, I can't help but wonder if it isn't the latter. Meneses is still the object of so much animosity because she was the one that told us all how Smich celebrated Tim Bosma's death. To believe Smich, she had to be a liar.

But once you cease to believe Smich and accept that you were misled, there is no more reason to hold on to that animosity toward Meneses.

 

[Stumper]

And Smich is the one who gets up on the witness stand and lies through his teeth at the Bosma trial. That was something even Millard didn't have the balls to do.

I find it strange that so many people accept that Smich was the dupe who got pushed around when the evidence doesn't support this theory.

Rather, the "Smich as dupe" theory appears to be based on the hope that only one person could be so evil, not two.

As Craig FRaser said, Smich was not a patsy but a full partner in crime. He was right.

For a hapless dupe he sure wasn’t pushed around or influenced by the crown or Millard’s legal team when he took the stand.

He stood strong and sure defending his tale of ridiculous lies against multiple trained legal teams and looked in his victims families eyes while he did it

 

[Stumper]

Smich-as-dupe is a simple narrative which is part of its appeal, but it's full of giant gaping holes, which is why two juries have refused to go along with it.

I've asked myself over and over again if it's a need to believe in good over evil or just a need to be right about one's "gut feelings" that keeps so many people defending Smich, the aspiring serial killer.

I'd like to believe it's the former but when I see so many people beat up on Marlena Meneses, I can't help but wonder if it isn't the latter. Meneses is still the object of so much animosity because she was the one that told us all how Smich celebrated Tim Bosma's death. To believe Smich, she had to be a liar.

But once you cease to believe Smich and accept that you were misled, there is no more reason to hold on to that animosity toward Meneses.

That’s interesting. I’ve wondered myself about the poor Smich phenomenon but haven’t been able to wrap my head around it any understandable to me way..

I hadn’t made the connection before but you are right that many that want to absolve and/or make excuses for MS are among the most vocal against MM

 

[ABro]

That’s interesting. I’ve wondered myself about the poor Smich phenomenon but haven’t been able to wrap my head around it any understandable to me way..

I hadn’t made the connection before but you are right that many that want to absolve and/or make excuses for MS are among the most vocal against MM

Michalski is another favourite whipping boy of Smich's sympathizers. Yet despite years of being groomed by Millard, he was never willing to make that step from thief to murderer.

 

[clefk27]

Be careful of the story about how the Smich family was deserted by the father. It was spun, after all, by the same guy who lied through his teeth on the witness stand. I can assure you it's not that simple at all.

Smich is every bit a psychopath. And I'm far from convinced he has the potential to be rehabilitated.

Please tell me you weren't one of the chorus of people chiming in about how bad Marlena Meneses was if you're now claiming Smich has the potential to be rehabilitated when he has -- in contrast to Meneses -- never shown an ounce of remorse.

...snipped.

No, actually I am convinced that MM has seen the light and have stated as much. In fact, I had argued on an earlier thread that her contribution to the M1 convictions in the TB trial was right up with Igor T. Her testimony that MS and DM were so happy and celebrating the morning after the murder was crucial and she held to that story under fierce cross. MM performed well in the LB trial as well IMHO. And her FB posting of ‘happy day #2’ (IIRC) after Saturday’s verdict is further proof that this girl has turned it around. True, she expressed excitement about marrying MS days before his arrest, which I’ll dismiss as a combo of stupid love, the folly of youth and being constantly extremely stoned.

 

[Grey-St]

Be careful of the story about how the Smich family was deserted by the father. It was spun, after all, by the same guy who lied through his teeth on the witness stand. I can assure you it's not that simple at all.

Smich is every bit a psychopath. And I'm far from convinced he has the potential to be rehabilitated.

Please tell me you weren't one of the chorus of people chiming in about how bad Marlena Meneses was if you're now claiming Smich has the potential to be rehabilitated when he has -- in contrast to Meneses -- never shown an ounce of remorse.

I'm gobsmacked by how significant people find that high school diploma. What else is he going to do in custody? They don't allow video games.

Take a bow, Abro. This is my exact sentiment.

Some of ya'll have some strange thought processes. Sympathize with a double murderer, vilify a crown witness.

 

[ABro]

No, actually I am convinced that MM has seen the light and have stated as much. In fact, I had argued on an earlier thread that her contribution to the M1 convictions in the TB trial was right up with Igor T. Her testimony that MS and DM were so happy and celebrating the morning after the murder was crucial and she held to that story under fierce cross. MM performed well in the LB trial as well IMHO. And her FB posting of ‘happy day #2’ (IIRC) after Saturday’s verdict is further proof that this girl has turned it around. True, she expressed excitement about marrying MS days before his arrest, which I’ll dismiss as a combo of stupid love, the folly of youth and being constantly extremely stoned.

Thanks for clarifying that. She was delusional and in denial and did bad things but I genuinely believe she has seen the error of her ways.

Smich, in contrast, has done no such thing.

 

[ABro]

Take a bow, Abro. This is my exact sentiment.

Some of ya'll have some strange thought processes. Sympathize with a double murderer, vilify a crown witness.

I do give people credit for changing their minds about Smich. It's not easy to admit you were fooled. And I think when people do change their mind it's a good thing. So kudos for that.

Way back when, I also wondered about Smich and found it hard to believe that a guy with two sisters Laura's age, who he seemed to care about, could kill a young woman.

I learned I was wrong.

I just wish that the people who have reconsidered Smich's role would revisit their feelings about Marlena as well. I'm not sure why there's this need for her to be a villain.

 

[Stumper]

Michalski is another favourite whipping boy of Smich's sympathizers. Yet despite years of being groomed by Millard, he was never willing to make that step from thief to murderer.

Ya I do have to think after all the lies to the police that they said the bare minimum to cover their own *advertiser censored**es. Michalski for example had texts with picks about possible sail boats to steal iirc. I find it hard to believe that he told DM to *advertiser censored** off when he asked weather to steal a truck from the *advertiser censored** h*** or nice guy. He testified that he said it because Millard didn’t need to steal a truck. But, he had proven extensive knowledge of Millard’s interest in theft for things he didn’t need to steal and had been an active participant. My opinion is that DM really said who should I kill the *advertiser censored** h**** or the nice guy and AM said *advertiser censored** off cause he couldn’t believe or wrap his head around it. I think many on the edges of this crime have withheld tons of important evidence.

That said I do believe that AM, MM and MH did in the end try to tell the truth and want justice to the extent that they could without drawing themselves in

 

[palisadesk]

[bbm]

such as?

Hi Lady L, you inquired about what characteristics of FAS DM may exhibit. We`ve had discussions about this before - mostly a propos of the TB trial. Because of family history, it is possible that DM has damage due to prenatal exposure to alcohol or - as has recently been learned, the sperm of a man who drinks heavily can be damaged so that it produces FAS-like symptoms (and other neurological issues) in his child.

Leaving that aside, here are some characteristics of FAS and FAE individuals that DM shares to a greater or lesser degree:

- obviously better developed verbal ability than quantitative reasoning (mathematical) ability. We`ve often discussed how little grasp DM seemed to have about money or finance.

- markedly impaired `executive function`as the psychologists term it:
(1) the ability to organize self and environment, make and carry through sophisticated plans independently, using feedback to modify those plans and strategies; (2)ability to set reasonable goals, develop incremental steps towards achieving them, and (again) alter or revise those steps as needed based on observation and feedback from others and the environment; (3) self-regulation, especially of own behaviour and adapt it appropriately to a variety of interpersonal or social settings; (4) appreciation of the relationship between actions and consequences, so that actions yielding undesired consequences become inhibited as a result of experience; (5) ability to make thoughtful and reasonable decisions using prior experience, social mores and input from others rather than impulsivity or desire for personal gratification

- noticeably less appropriate moral, social and interpersonal development and behaviour than would be expected for the individual`s age and level of intellectual functioning (IQ)

- as adults, much greater tendency towards substance abuse, promiscuity, criminal behaviour (related to poor impulse control, lack of inhibition, lack of social awareness and understanding of the needs and rights of others,etc.)

There`s more, but we can see a lot of this in DM`s life, as we know it, which is in a rather limited way. But these tendencies (each of which can be attributed to other causes) taken together are something of a hmmmmmm moment.

There was a good series about FAS a few years back in the Ottawa Citizen called `When Mommy Drinks,` which was very informative; the need for public awareness remains very pressing. Not much in the way of effective treatment exists to date -- the alcohol crosses the blood-brain barrier, and eats away at the fetal brain like battery acid, destroying large chunks of the cerebrum, especially the frontal cortex where these `executive functions` reside.

I worked professionally with young offenders for a time and researched the literature and treatment options in some detail. Here`s a site with good information for the general reader, and a horrifying scan of a normal baby brain vs a FAS baby brain. You can see the missing and damaged areas of the cerebral cortex. This can never be repaired.

http://www.faslink.org/fasmain.htm

Note: I do not know that DM is so affected, but his history shows that he possesses a number of these traits. His responsibility for his behaviour, under the law, is not affected. FAS is neither a mental illness nor an excuse for criminality, but it is a predisposing condition.

 

[mimimic]

I do give people credit for changing their minds about Smich. It's not easy to admit you were fooled. And I think when people do change their mind it's a good thing. So kudos for that.

Way back when, I also wondered about Smich and found it hard to believe that a guy with two sisters Laura's age, who he seemed to care about, could kill a young woman.

I learned I was wrong.

I just wish that the people who have reconsidered Smich's role would revisit their feelings about Marlena as well. I'm not sure why there's this need for her to be a villain.

For me personally, I paint MS and DM with the same evil brush- so I am not sure how to make sense of these posts on this. For MM I guess I just have some doubts about her and before making my mind up, I would have had to been in court to get a better read off of her.
MM's Celebrating comments: she seemed to try to make sound like they were just happy they got the truck. Not that they were celebrating a murder. Do you feel that because she says she didn't know and was afraid for MS to go to do the TB theft that she could in no way have known about LB?