Lawrence Smith Replies - If you can say that

[UKGuy]

What happened that morning works.

* John wakes up thinking he is going to Michigan.
* After he gets out of the shower, Patsy goes into her "finding the ransom note" act.
* Patsy shows John that JonBenet is missing.
* They go downstairs so John can read the ransom note.
* Either while John is still reading the ransom note or shortly thereafter, Patsy starts the 911 call.
* John recognizes the ransom note is written by Patsy.
* Put the ransom note together with the fact JonBenet is missing and John must have assumed Patsy had done something to JonBenet.

First of all, John has almost no time to think. Why would he stop her from calling 911? Why would he stop friends from being called. He already knows the ransom note is a fake.

I don't think people really appreciate the emotions of that morning.

Get up some morning, have your spouse tell you one of your children is missing, have them give you a long letter to read, the letter says your child is missing and it appears to be written by your spouse. It slowly dawns on you your child is probably dead. And meanwhile your fidgeting spouse is starting to call 911. And you are supposed to do what? And remember your other child is standing right there. And you are in your underwear and the police will arrive in minutes.

Albert18,
Sure but the forensic evidence and Johns inconsistencies in his initial statements suggest he was fully aware prior to dialling 911, the circumstances surrounding Jonbenet's death?

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

So the important question is how long a gap was there between the head-blow and her being garroted?

I think the question as to how much time elapsed between the head injury and the strangulation is crucial, which is why I'd like to get more medical info on brain swelling resulting from head injuries.

 

[rashomon]

What happened that morning works.

* John wakes up thinking he is going to Michigan.
* After he gets out of the shower, Patsy goes into her "finding the ransom note" act.
* Patsy shows John that JonBenet is missing.
* They go downstairs so John can read the ransom note.
* Either while John is still reading the ransom note or shortly thereafter, Patsy starts the 911 call.
* John recognizes the ransom note is written by Patsy.
* Put the ransom note together with the fact JonBenet is missing and John must have assumed Patsy had done something to JonBenet.


I don't think people really appreciate the emotions of that morning.

Get up some morning, have your spouse tell you one of your children is missing, have them give you a long letter to read, the letter says your child is missing and it appears to be written by your spouse. It slowly dawns on you your child is probably dead. And meanwhile your fidgeting spouse is starting to call 911. And you are supposed to do what? And remember your other child is standing right there. And you are in your underwear and the police will arrive in minutes.

According to the Ramseys, it was John who told Patsy to call the police.

Why would he stop friends from being called. He already knows the ransom note is a fake.

I have no doubt John knew the note was fake, since he may actually have helped Patsy to write it, or at least have told her to make it look like Access Graphic employees might be involved in the 'kidnapping'.

Also, fibers from the black wool shirt John had been wearing to the Whites' Christmas party were found in the crotch area of JonBenet's size 12 underwear. Imo this evidence involves him in the staging of the scene together with Patsy.

 

[JMO8778]

What happened that morning works.

* John wakes up thinking he is going to Michigan.
* After he gets out of the shower, Patsy goes into her "finding the ransom note" act.
* Patsy shows John that JonBenet is missing.
* They go downstairs so John can read the ransom note.
* Either while John is still reading the ransom note or shortly thereafter, Patsy starts the 911 call.
* John recognizes the ransom note is written by Patsy.
* Put the ransom note together with the fact JonBenet is missing and John must have assumed Patsy had done something to JonBenet.

First of all, John has almost no time to think. Why would he stop her from calling 911? Why would he stop friends from being called. He already knows the ransom note is a fake.

I don't think people really appreciate the emotions of that morning.

Get up some morning, have your spouse tell you one of your children is missing, have them give you a long letter to read, the letter says your child is missing and it appears to be written by your spouse. It slowly dawns on you your child is probably dead. And meanwhile your fidgeting spouse is starting to call 911. And you are supposed to do what? And remember your other child is standing right there. And you are in your underwear and the police will arrive in minutes.

My response to that would not be a passive one.I would use LE as a LAISION between myself and my spouse.IOW-I would take LE aside,and say, "Look,I think my husb. wrote that note...PLEASE HELP ME FIND MY DAUGHTER! ASK him point blank,DID YOU WRITE THAT NOTE?????!!!!" THAT would be my response.

 

[JMO8778]

* John wakes up thinking he is going to Michigan.

Patsy claims she was in bed when JR got up and into the shower.I see this as an obvious lie,because of the short amount of time that would have been left to get herself ready,get 2 kids ready,nevermind,get the luggage and all into the car,drive to the airport,and board the plane...all by 7am.JR would have woke her up,in a frenzy,no doubt...knowing she would have to rush to accomplish all of that in the short amt of time that was left,and risk being late as it was.Remember,a flight plan had already been filed.The pilot and plane would have been waiting.

 

[rashomon]

Get up some morning, have your spouse tell you one of your children is missing, have them give you a long letter to read, the letter says your child is missing and it appears to be written by your spouse. It slowly dawns on you your child is probably dead. And meanwhile your fidgeting spouse is starting to call 911. And you are supposed to do what? And remember your other child is standing right there. And you are in your underwear and the police will arrive in minutes.

My spouse is a very honest and straigthforward type of person, therefore I find very difficult to even imagine he would write any faked ransom note to cover up a tragic accident. He is just not the type to evade responsibility for his actions.
But for the sake of the discussion - suppose a faked ransom note led me to believe my child died at my spouse's hands, I think I would either break down completely or, if there was enough adrenaline to activate my 'flight hormones', I would grab my other child, flee from the house and alert the neighbors to call the police.

 

[Albert18]

John's fiber evidence doesn't tell us anything. Finding a fiber from a parent on their own child doesn't mean anything unless there are unusual circumstances. Patsy's fibers were found in unusual places. A fiber from Patsy laying on JonBenet's body would have meant nothing.

John's fibers could have gone from him, to Patsy, then to JonBenet. John was with JonBenet and Patsy when he wore that shirt. You also have the fact JonBenet was cleaned and we don't know what cloth was used to clean her.

What about where the fibers were found? Consider all the logistics that Patsy had to go through that night with JonBenet, way too much activity to pin any significance on those fibers.

What were John's inconsistencies in his statements?

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Excellent analysis, so how long was the time-gap between the head-blow and strangulation?

Just basing it on the opinions of the forensic specialists who have studied this case, I feel it was between 20 and 60 minutes.
Over an hour, there would be more bleeding under the scalp- as well as more swelling noted in the brain.
The head bash knocked her unconscious immediately. The horror of what happened sank in, and the marks on her neck were visible within that first 20-30 minutes.
I think it had to be the manual strangulation that prompted the garroting. Without the garrote, JBR could simply have been bound and the blame placed on a kidnapping-gone-wrong anyway. Even WITH the head bash not being apparent, this could have been the case.
IMHO, there were 2 reasons to strangle her with the garrote. One was to hide the evidence of the shirt being twisted around her neck, the other (and I have to say I find this hard to imagine) is to make sure she DID die- just in case she could have survived that horrible skull fracture with enough presence of mind to tell what happened.

 

[UKGuy]

Just basing it on the opinions of the forensic specialists who have studied this case, I feel it was between 20 and 60 minutes.
Over an hour, there would be more bleeding under the scalp- as well as more swelling noted in the brain.
The head bash knocked her unconscious immediately. The horror of what happened sank in, and the marks on her neck were visible within that first 20-30 minutes.
I think it had to be the manual strangulation that prompted the garroting. Without the garrote, JBR could simply have been bound and the blame placed on a kidnapping-gone-wrong anyway. Even WITH the head bash not being apparent, this could have been the case.
IMHO, there were 2 reasons to strangle her with the garrote. One was to hide the evidence of the shirt being twisted around her neck, the other (and I have to say I find this hard to imagine) is to make sure she DID die- just in case she could have survived that horrible skull fracture with enough presence of mind to tell what happened.

DeeDee249,
One hour you reckon, imo its obvious the person who applied the garrote knew they were killing JonBenet, to argue it was done in ignorance, neglects that she was denied medical assistance in the first place, so although her head injury may have been accidental or non-intentional, everything that followed was intentional.

And all because JonBenet had toileting issues, mmm ?

 

[rashomon]

John's fiber evidence doesn't tell us anything. Finding a fiber from a parent on their own child doesn't mean anything unless there are unusual circumstances. Patsy's fibers were found in unusual places. A fiber from Patsy laying on JonBenet's body would have meant nothing.

John's fibers could have gone from him, to Patsy, then to JonBenet. John was with JonBenet and Patsy when he wore that shirt. You also have the fact JonBenet was cleaned and we don't know what cloth was used to clean her.

What about where the fibers were found? Consider all the logistics that Patsy had to go through that night with JonBenet, way too much activity to pin any significance on those fibers.

What were John's inconsistencies in his statements?

Imo the size 12 underwear was as much an 'incriminating location' as the garrote and the paint tote since JoBenet had shed blood onto that underwear from a wound inflicted to the vagina.
The underwear was also far too big and obviously taken out of a brand-new package, which imo points to the pair having been put on her for staging purposes. I believe that John, for whatever reason, helped Patsy with the staging.

jmo

 

[rashomon]

DeeDee249,
One hour you reckon, imo its obvious the person who applied the garrote knew they were killing JonBenet, to argue it was done in ignorance, neglects that she was denied medical assistance in the first place, so although her head injury may have been accidental or non-intentional, everything that followed was intentional.

And all because JonBenet had toileting issues, mmm ?

Maybe Patsy did not want to have to live with a permanently brain-damaged child for whose vegetative state she alone was responsible?
But if Patsy knew JonBenet was not yet dead when she put the cord around her neck, it would be first-degree murder of course. I wouldn't put it past Patsy to have done this.

jmo

 

[UKGuy]

Maybe Patsy did not want to have to live with a permanently brain-damaged child for whose vegetative state she alone was responsible?
But if Patsy knew JonBenet was not yet dead when she put the cord around her neck, it would be first-degree murder of course. I wouldn't put it past Patsy to have done this.

jmo

rashomon,
Sure, but how does she really know about the vegetative state issue, what compels a mother to garrote her own daughter so fast?


.

 

[Albert18]

I've noticed people use the oversized underwear to point to John. That makes no sense.

Patsy was probably the only person who knew where that package of underwear was located.

 

[DeeDee249]

I've noticed people use the oversized underwear to point to John. That makes no sense.

Patsy was probably the only person who knew where that package of underwear was located.

Yes, I agree. However, JR could have done it after being where they were.

 

[JMO8778]

rashomon,
Sure, but how does she really know about the vegetative state issue, what compels a mother to garrote her own daughter so fast?


.

I think it was panic;there was just no going back after the marks were visible on her neck,not to mention,the way she roughed JB up...she wouldn't have wanted her to wake up after that.Patsy was all about reputation,and hers would have been forever tainted.I think she imagined the headlines coming..'former Ms WV....'.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
One hour you reckon, imo its obvious the person who applied the garrote knew they were killing JonBenet, to argue it was done in ignorance, neglects that she was denied medical assistance in the first place, so although her head injury may have been accidental or non-intentional, everything that followed was intentional.

And all because JonBenet had toileting issues, mmm ?

They may not have known they were killing her when they applied the garrote. They may have thought she was dead from the blow to the head. The garrote could have been applied to divert suspicion from the large abrasion on her neck from the twisting of fabric (shirt? ) and also so that when the body was discovered, there was a cause of death that was immediately apparent.
As astute as the Rs may have been, I feel there were many things that they did not realize would ever become an issue; would never be discerned.
The fact that her panties were not her usual size is a big one, IMHO. I think no one was more surprised than they were when this turned out to be something LE was interested in.
The pineapple in her digestive tract is another biggie. I am sure they NEVER expected anything still identifiable and were shocked when it also became an issue. The fact that it became a factor in establishing her TOD was the reason why they had to deny any knowledge of giving it to her, right down to the ridiculousness of denying owning the bowl (seen in photos of their Dec. 23 party right on their own table) or even buying it, when it was well-known that it was one of JBR's favorite snacks and they always had it in the fridge. (as they did that day).

 

[DeeDee249]

rashomon,
Sure, but how does she really know about the vegetative state issue, what compels a mother to garrote her own daughter so fast?


.

I think PR was smart enough to know that watching JBR grow up in a hospital bed connected to tubes was NOT something she could live with. PLus having HER whole world see her as the cause of it, accident or not.
That being said, I think JR did the actual garroting. She was on her stomach when it was done. If she was unconscious, she wouldn't have struggled against it, but there may have been facial expressions that were not seen because her face was against the floor. It would have been an awful sight. As shallow as PR was and as cold as JR seemed, I don't think they could have looked into her face, dead or alive, while they strangled her.
That was the reason she was garroted from behind.

 

[rashomon]

I've noticed people use the oversized underwear to point to John. That makes no sense.

Patsy was probably the only person who knew where that package of underwear was located.

Patsy could have told John to get a pair from the package and put it on the body.

 

[rashomon]

Originally Posted by UKGuy
rashomon,
Sure, but how does she really know about the vegetative state issue, what compels a mother to garrote her own daughter so fast?

I think PR was smart enough to know that watching JBR grow up in a hospital bed connected to tubes was NOT something she could live with. PLus having HER whole world see her as the cause of it, accident or not.

My thoughts exactly. I also think that after hearing JonBenet's skull crack and feeling the hole caused by the head blow, Patsy knew instantly that this was truly a horrific wound 'beyond repair'.

 

[UKGuy]

I think PR was smart enough to know that watching JBR grow up in a hospital bed connected to tubes was NOT something she could live with. PLus having HER whole world see her as the cause of it, accident or not.
That being said, I think JR did the actual garroting. She was on her stomach when it was done. If she was unconscious, she wouldn't have struggled against it, but there may have been facial expressions that were not seen because her face was against the floor. It would have been an awful sight. As shallow as PR was and as cold as JR seemed, I don't think they could have looked into her face, dead or alive, while they strangled her.
That was the reason she was garroted from behind.

DeeDee249,

I think PR was smart enough to know that watching JBR grow up in a hospital bed connected to tubes was NOT something she could live with. PLus having HER whole world see her as the cause of it, accident or not.

Well Patsy is certainly calming down here, the panic must be wearing off, being smart she decides she must garrote JonBenet, well you may be correct, but I do not know since I cannot see into the mind of Patsy e.g. her psychological state remains speculative.

As shallow as PR was and as cold as JR seemed, I don't think they could have looked into her face, dead or alive, while they strangled her.
That was the reason she was garroted from behind.

Possibly, alternatively how she was garroted may have been determined by the intended staging, and not by any post-mortem remorse?