Learn Something New Every Day

[PaperDoll]

That looks like the phoniest grief I've ever seen. Look at the drama written all over her face, it says, "Poor Me!". Kinda like when Susan Smith went on national TV and lied about the false abduction of her kids, her phony tears were immediately apparent to me by her facial expression. It screamed, LIAR, LIAR, LIAR.:liar: :liar: :liar:

I thought the same thing LinasK.. I knew she was lying.. something wasn't right.. I feel the same about this pic of PR. I think it's the way she's grasping her throat and the camera just happens to be there.. I don't know, I just think it looks unnatural..

 

[Camper]

Been thinking about the sectioned hair, and the why of it all. I sit each week with my fav hairdresser. Lots of ladies AND men getting their hair colored.

Sectioning is a major portion of doing the touchups on LONGER hair.

The odor that prevailed in JonBenet's bathroom, that none of the BPD could identify, might have been something that was prepped to be used on JonBenets hair, and that JonBenet rebelled against. WE donut know with certainty of course.

Wonder IF it might have been spilled on the red shirt that was wet and wadded up, and spot washed after a tiff and spill, everyone tired after a busy Christmas.

.

 

[Britt]

Well, if it was an accident and Patsy or John were responsible for a cover-up, then I believe they have paid their penance. What do you think would have happened if they didn't cover it up? More of the same - high media coverage and public humiliation. That got that anyways.

I might sort of agree with this if it weren't for the evidence of prior abuse of JonBenet, which complicates an accident scenario even if the death was unintentional.

Also, it's hard to get past the Ramseys' victimization of others -- people they targeted to pin the crime on, not to mention poor Burke, condemned to live under that suspicion umbrella thanks to his lying parents. JonBenet wasn't the only Ramsey victim IMO.

 

[UKGuy]

Been thinking about the sectioned hair, and the why of it all. I sit each week with my fav hairdresser. Lots of ladies AND men getting their hair colored.

Sectioning is a major portion of doing the touchups on LONGER hair.

The odor that prevailed in JonBenet's bathroom, that none of the BPD could identify, might have been something that was prepped to be used on JonBenets hair, and that JonBenet rebelled against. WE donut know with certainty of course.

Wonder IF it might have been spilled on the red shirt that was wet and wadded up, and spot washed after a tiff and spill, everyone tired after a busy Christmas.

.

Camper,

Could be as you describe, it mostly fits the evidence, also her hair-ties were on the floor, so something was taking place.


.

 

[sissi]

---->>>WE donut know that she PUT on the same clothes. The options are:

a. She (PR)put on the same clothes
b. She (PR)still had ON the same clothes from the night before.

I personally would not have worn the SAME party clothing the following morning to fly across country for hours in a SITTING position creating wrinkles upon wrinkles in all the wrong places. I would have worn comfy clothing for a LONG trip like that in a rather physically cramped position. Thats just me, I am a Saggitarius too, BUT I like to be comfy. Party dress up clothes are fine for party time, but to be in a small airplane being a mommy would not suit me personally.

.

I would have done exactly the same as she did, velvet pants are generally comfly, a red sweater for the holiday , and most important!! no one that was seeing her had seen her in that outfit. I'm an Aquarius, my make-up and hair are damn obsessions, hell with the clothes. Was she a Sag..the 29th? didn't that throw her into Capricorn? My sister is a Sag, Dec.8, she's always dressed and dripping in jewelry.

 

[ellen13]

Imo it is not that easy. This was only an 'accident' insofar as Patsy (I think it was her) did not mean to kill JonBenet, but the head blow to JB's head was certainly not delivered accidentally, but with full intention by someone being in an uncontrollable rage. And then the perp staged a scene because she wanted to save her sorry hide. Not someone else's hide.
For imo the only person Patsy Ramsey would ever have covered up for is herself. If Burke had delivered that blow, I'm convinced John and Patsy would have taken JB to the hospital, claiming that it was an accident. And if John had killed JB, I'm convinced that Patsy would have "chopped his block off", as she told Haney in the 1998 interview. This was one of the few times I believed what she said.
Be it manslaughter, second degree murder or whatever, the victim deserves justice, and justice has not been served in this case.
Where are we coming to if we say, ok the perp has suffered enough, her cancer has even returned, nothing will bring back the victim anyway, and couldn't we just leave it at that? If we think like that, then JB would indeed be no more than a broken doll which had been put in that basement because it could not be repaired anymore.
I suppose there are quite a few perps who suffer from cancer but who still are charged with the crimes they committed, and rightly so.
If they are very ill, they may not have to serve a prison sentence but have to go to hospital instead, but still these people usually will be charged, and Patsy should have been no exception.
And if like you said, stress hastened Patsy's death, this kind of stress would not have been there if she hadn't killed her daughter. Now that Patsy is dead, nothing should be swept under the carpet any longer. For would having to live with a lie really be better for Burke? I doubt it. When I read about OJ Simpson's daughter, I doubt that having to live with her father's lies has done her any good.

This is not a time to be silent. It is a time to once more openly demand justice for JonBenet. For she is the true victim in this case, and justice has not been served so far.
We don't know if Patsy is with JonBenet. Would JonBenet really want to be together with the person who killed her, I ask myself.

Elliemae, so sorry to hear what you are going through. I have lost family members to cancer too, and I wish you so much strength and support in your fight against this disease. And every day, anyone of us can be diagnosed with it too. There is just no real safety in life. You are in my prayers, and right now I'm thinking of all the people (and also animals) who are suffering.
And I would also wish for Patsy, wherever she may be now, to heal from the ugliness of her own spirit.

but it would have been the second time it happened from burke and maybe the hospital had records on that. it's also possible that burke hit her so hard that they knew she was dead and nothing could have been done.

 

[Camper]

I would have done exactly the same as she did, velvet pants are generally comfly, a red sweater for the holiday , and most important!! no one that was seeing her had seen her in that outfit. I'm an Aquarius, my make-up and hair are damn obsessions, hell with the clothes. Was she a Sag..the 29th? didn't that throw her into Capricorn? My sister is a Sag, Dec.8, she's always dressed and dripping in jewelry.

------>>>Thanks for refreshing my hed on the velvet pants, I might have done that too. My moms birthday was Dec 24, so yes PR was on the cusp of Sag. and indeed a Capricorn. Mom and I tangled frequently on stuff, maybe just because she was my mom, er maybe because our birthdays were both in Dec. MY HAIR is very important to me as well, cuz if yer makeup is at least 'nice' yer clothes near 'nice' it is good ta go. Dress up is quite another matter though, PARTY TIME, yippee.

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[rashomon]

As a former speech pathologist, I disagree that your lips turn upward when people cry, the natural inclination is downward, like a frown.

I agree. I looked at the picture with a magnifying glass, and there's also too much of Patsy's teeth showing for it to be a picture of someone who is crying. To me, she looks more like a snarling dog showing its teeth - really aggressive. And who knows if deep down inside, she didn't still have aggressive feelings toward JB, who through her behavior on that fatal night drove Patsy to deadly injure her, thus 'ruining her life'? It wouldn't be the first time that a killer blamed it on the victim.

So it could be that in this totally unnatural looking and staged posture, unbeknownst to Patsy, her true feelings were shining through. I was actually quite shocked at the aggressive expression in her face when I looked at it with the magnifying glass.

 

[Solace]

I agree. I looked at the picture with a magnifying glass, and there's also too much of Patsy's teeth showing for it to be a picture of someone who is crying. To me, she looks more like a snarling dog showing its teeth - really aggressive. And who knows if deep down inside, she didn't still have aggressive feelings toward JB, who through her behavior on that fatal night drove Patsy to deadly injure her, thus 'ruining her life'? It wouldn't be the first time that a killer blamed it on the victim.

So it could be that in this totally unnatural looking and staged posture, unbeknownst to Patsy, her true feelings were shining through. I was actually quite shocked at the aggressive expression in her face when I looked at it with the magnifying glass.

Hi Rash,

What picture are you speaking of? Dying to know. Solace

 

[Seeker]

Imo it is not that easy. This was only an 'accident' insofar as Patsy (I think it was her) did not mean to kill JonBenet, but the head blow to JB's head was certainly not delivered accidentally, but with full intention by someone being in an uncontrollable rage.

Could you please clarify what you mean? Are you saying that Patsy meant to harm JB, but not kill her? That she didn't mean to crack her skull? And do you subscribe to ST theory that Patsy cracked JB's skull then took her down to the basement where she applied the cord and proceeded to strangle her?

The headblow, while a mortal wound, would have taken time to cause her to die. Her pulse would have still been there and she would have still been breathing.

There was only 7-8cc's of blood/hemorage found under her scalp with no swelling of the brain at all. This, to me, indicates that the blow to the skull must have happened after the ligature was applied and cut off the main flow of blood to the brain.

IOW ST theory is flawed in the regard that the time it would have taken to carry JB's body downstairs and then apply the ligature would have resulted in much more blood being found than a mere 7-8cc's.

 

[Britt]

Hi Seeker

There was only 7-8cc's of blood/hemorage found under her scalp with no swelling of the brain at all. This, to me, indicates that the blow to the skull must have happened after the ligature was applied and cut off the main flow of blood to the brain.

I agree it seems something cut off blood flow initially... but not necessarily the ligature. The head blow could have happened while/after someone in a rage had their hands around JB's neck, or had hold of her shirt/sweater and twisted it up around her neck, or a garment got caught around her neck during a struggle, and so on... IMO, not inconsistent with a Thomas type scenario. JB may have been strangled enough to slow the blood flow just prior to the head blow. Then came the ligature.

 

[UKGuy]

Hi Seeker


I agree it seems something cut off blood flow initially... but not necessarily the ligature. The head blow could have happened while/after someone in a rage had their hands around JB's neck, or had hold of her shirt/sweater and twisted it up around her neck, or a garment got caught around her neck during a struggle, and so on... IMO, not inconsistent with a Thomas type scenario. JB may have been strangled enough to slow the blood flow just prior to the head blow. Then came the ligature.

Britt,

Something like this, is the most probable scenario.

speculating you could add her assailant also continued to assault Jonbenet, after the initial strangulation, using some blunt object, this would account for the contusions and possibly some abrasions.

JonBenet's killer wanted her silenced.

A refinement could be that JonBenet was both simultaneously manually strangled whilst being subject to head trauma as her head swung from side to side, eventually her assailant releases her/his grip and JonBenet's head hits the floor or some other object. Thereby causing the head injury, and possibly the facial contusions?

The ligature is mere staging, it was applied later, much later. The circumferential furrow around her neck, has arrived simply by the postmortem expansion of her neck. Her hyoid is still intact, also the furrow lies neatly above the area where there is evident bruising and injury.

JonBenet's hair is embedded in the knotting and her necklace is entangled in the ligature, but there are no markings or contusions resulting from this, so the ligature is bogus.

Its probable her killer thought she had died from being strangled, and never noticed the head injury, even Dr John Meyer was not aware of its extent until he did the post mortem.

If you read Coroner Meyer's report he does not state that JonBenet died from ligature strangulation.

Coroner Meyer knew there was a potential court case, so this would have been an area he would have been called on for his opinion.

.

 

[Seeker]

The ligature is mere staging, it was applied later, much later. The circumferential furrow around her neck, has arrived simply by the postmortem expansion of her neck.

Does this look like it's simply staging to you?

BTW there would be no postmortem swelling/expansion of her neck. Dead bodies do not bleed, nor do they swell until much, much later, days later as a matter of fact after gasses build up and make it expand. Another view of her neck IOW the ligature mark on her neck would not be blood red unless it was applied while she was still alive. A ligature applied to a dead body would not leave a red mark. In fact the mark would be entirely different.

JonBenet's hair is embedded in the knotting and her necklace is entangled in the ligature, but there are no markings or contusions resulting from this, so the ligature is bogus.

The necklace was not "entagled" as in twisted around the ligature. Check ACR's website for the autopsy photo's that show it was merely parallel to the cord. Here you go if you have trouble finding it. This one is a closeup of the mark on her face, but it shows the necklace better IMO.

If you read Coroner Meyer's report he does not state that JonBenet died from ligature strangulation.

Actually he does when he lists it as the #1 final diagnosis finding. From the report.

FINAL DIAGNOSIS:

I. Ligature strangulation
A. Circumferential ligature with associated ligature furrow of neck

B. Abrasions and petechial hemorrhages, neck

C. Petechial hemorrhages, conjunctival surfaces of eyes and skin of face

II. Craniocerebral injuries
A. Scalp contusion

B. Linear, comminuted fracture of right side of skull

C. Linear pattern of contusions of right cerebral hemisphere

D. subarachnoid and subdural hemorrhage

E. Small contusions, tips of temporal lobes

III. Abrasion of right cheek

IV. Abrasion/contusion, posterior right shoulder

V. Abrasions of left lower back and posterior left lower leg

VI. Abrasion and vancular congestion of vaginal mucosa

VII. Ligature of right wrist

Toxicologic Studies

blood ethanol - none detected
blood drug screen - no drugs detected

CLINOCOPATHOLIGICAL CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma.


He need not state that it was specifically ligature strangulation in the CC because he already did in the FD.

 

[Solace]

Does this look like it's simply staging to you?
http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetneckgarrote.jpg
BTW there would be no postmortem swelling/expansion of her neck. Dead bodies do not bleed, nor do they swell until much, much later, days later as a matter of fact after gasses build up and make it expand. Another view of her neck IOW the ligature mark on her neck would not be blood red unless it was applied while she was still alive. A ligature applied to a dead body would not leave a red mark. In fact the mark would be entirely different.



The necklace was not "entagled" as in twisted around the ligature. Check ACR's website for the autopsy photo's that show it was merely parallel to the cord. Here you go if you have trouble finding it. This one is a closeup of the mark on her face, but it shows the necklace better IMO.



Actually he does when he lists it as the #1 final diagnosis finding. From the report.

FINAL DIAGNOSIS:

I. Ligature strangulation
A. Circumferential ligature with associated ligature furrow of neck

B. Abrasions and petechial hemorrhages, neck

C. Petechial hemorrhages, conjunctival surfaces of eyes and skin of face

II. Craniocerebral injuries
A. Scalp contusion

B. Linear, comminuted fracture of right side of skull

C. Linear pattern of contusions of right cerebral hemisphere

D. subarachnoid and subdural hemorrhage

E. Small contusions, tips of temporal lobes

III. Abrasion of right cheek

IV. Abrasion/contusion, posterior right shoulder

V. Abrasions of left lower back and posterior left lower leg

VI. Abrasion and vancular congestion of vaginal mucosa

VII. Ligature of right wrist

Toxicologic Studies

blood ethanol - none detected
blood drug screen - no drugs detected

CLINOCOPATHOLIGICAL CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma.


He need not state that it was specifically ligature strangulation in the CC because he already did in the FD.

Hi Seeker,

Is it not possible that the strangulation was done to make sure she was dead because of the accident. That the staging is the sexual crime itself since there were no fluids found. No the strangulation DOES NOT look like staging. It is truly heartbreaking. You see when I see this kind of stuff, I start saying to myself there is no way, no way that Patsy did this or John either.

But someone in that house did this thing. I believe that. What do you think?

 

[UKGuy]

Does this look like it's simply staging to you?

BTW there would be no postmortem swelling/expansion of her neck. Dead bodies do not bleed, nor do they swell until much, much later, days later as a matter of fact after gasses build up and make it expand. Another view of her neck IOW the ligature mark on her neck would not be blood red unless it was applied while she was still alive. A ligature applied to a dead body would not leave a red mark. In fact the mark would be entirely different.



The necklace was not "entagled" as in twisted around the ligature. Check ACR's website for the autopsy photo's that show it was merely parallel to the cord. Here you go if you have trouble finding it. This one is a closeup of the mark on her face, but it shows the necklace better IMO.



Actually he does when he lists it as the #1 final diagnosis finding. From the report.

FINAL DIAGNOSIS:

I. Ligature strangulation
A. Circumferential ligature with associated ligature furrow of neck

B. Abrasions and petechial hemorrhages, neck

C. Petechial hemorrhages, conjunctival surfaces of eyes and skin of face

II. Craniocerebral injuries
A. Scalp contusion

B. Linear, comminuted fracture of right side of skull

C. Linear pattern of contusions of right cerebral hemisphere

D. subarachnoid and subdural hemorrhage

E. Small contusions, tips of temporal lobes

III. Abrasion of right cheek

IV. Abrasion/contusion, posterior right shoulder

V. Abrasions of left lower back and posterior left lower leg

VI. Abrasion and vancular congestion of vaginal mucosa

VII. Ligature of right wrist

Toxicologic Studies

blood ethanol - none detected
blood drug screen - no drugs detected

CLINOCOPATHOLIGICAL CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma.


He need not state that it was specifically ligature strangulation in the CC because he already did in the FD.

Seeker,

Well you pick the bits that suit you.

Ligature strangulation is patent, so has to be itemized.

Coroner Meyer did not conclude that JonBenet had been asphyxiated by ligature strangulation, only that the cause of death was asphyxia by strangulation, he knew full well that she may have been manually strangled, including his opinion that she was sexually assaulted digitally, for him to form a professional view on her sexuall assault, and to ignore the injuries to her neck which are below the ligature is inconsistent. He was obviously keeping his opinions for the court case.

Being asphyxiated is not the same as being strangled.

The postmortem swelling etc, is open to debate, but it probably occurred.

I'll leave her hair embedded in the knotting on the garrote as an exercise in speculation.

As also why most of the bruising and abrasions lie beneath the ligature, whilst if she had been garrotted, similar bruising and/or contusions/abrasion should be evident where the garrote was applied?

.

 

[Seeker]

Hi Seeker,

Is it not possible that the strangulation was done to make sure she was dead because of the accident. That the staging is the sexual crime itself since there were no fluids found. No the strangulation DOES NOT look like staging. It is truly heartbreaking. You see when I see this kind of stuff, I start saying to myself there is no way, no way that Patsy did this or John either.

But someone in that house did this thing. I believe that. What do you think?

Yes Solace, it's possible, but honestly how probable would it be that someone who was in a rage would be thinking clearly enough to immediately decide strangle her knowing it would cut off the supply of blood to her cranium and thereby keep the skull fracture area relatively free of massive subdural bleeding and swelling? Plus how would they know that she wouldn't recover from the head blow and wasn't merely knocked unconsious? There were no outward signs that she was mortally wounded from it. Her (medulla oblongata) lower portion of the brainstem that connects to the spinal cord would have still continued survival functions (breathing, swallowing, body tempurature, waste elimination, etc). IOW it continues with life functions without conscious thought. She would have looked like she was just knocked out.

The hyoid bone doesn't always break during strangulation either, not even in some cases of hanging.

I agree 100% with you that the sexual aspect was staging to make it look like a sexual predator did this crime.
The ransom note IMO was also part of the staging and done to buy time. Time to stall the cops and I have to agree with John Walsh on his point about the BPD botching this from the get go. If they had secured the crime scene (which means the entire premesis had been thouroughly searched) her body would have been found much sooner and none of the friends would have been allowed to come to the house, or quickly ushered out. No victim advocates would have been there cleaning the counters either! Who knows what evidence those va's might have destroyed!

ST says he requested that a bloodhound be used, but the problem with that is the only scent they (PD, or family) had to offer to the dog would have been JonBenet's. He would only have tracked her to the basement and we'd still be in the same place, her body alone in the basement. Without another viable scent source to track there is no way the dog would have been able to pick up a perp's scent.

 

[BBB167893]

"The postmortem swelling etc, is open to debate, but it probably occurred."

It's not just that. Strangling with a cord is an odd thing. Sometimes, if it's done a certain way, it's possible that a cord will not slacken when pressure is let off. Plus, a child's neck skin is fairly pliable, what with the baby fat protruding over the cord. I'm no expert, but I'll go with that until something better shows up.

 

[Seeker]

Seeker,

Well you pick the bits that suit you.

No I acutally picked bits I know something about due to experience.

Ligature strangulation is patent, so has to be itemized.

Coroner Meyer did not conclude that JonBenet had been asphyxiated by ligature strangulation, only that the cause of death was asphyxia by strangulation, he knew full well that she may have been manually strangled, including his opinion that she was sexually assaulted digitally, for him to form a professional view on her sexuall assault, and to ignore the injuries to her neck which are below the ligature is inconsistent. He was obviously keeping his opinions for the court case.

We only have his opinion of the digital penetration comment via hearsay from a third party. Even though the autopsy report does indicate this to be true, we don't know exactly what he said athough I do believe it's quite possible he did. However, he did a disection of her neck and noted any and all injuries, just as he did on her other injuries.
I'm not going to speculate on what "he full well knew", or didn't know. He didn't include his personal notes with the autopsy, so I don't know what he was thinking about what he saw.

Being asphyxiated is not the same as being strangled.

Yet Meyer said the cause of death was asphyxiation by strangulation didn't he? And no, he doesn't have to state that it was due to "asphyxiation by ligature strangulation". Maybe coroners in the UK have to do that I don't know, but I know and have seen many an autopsy report that reads much like this one. He lists the FD (Final Diagnosis) as ligature strangulation. If he didn't believe she had died of being strangled by the cord he would have noted 1 as simply strangulation, not ligature strangulation. CC stands for clinicopathological correlation.
IOW he gives the basic information to the final diagnosis. Ligature just means that there was something tied around her neck that was used to strangle her to death with.

The postmortem swelling etc, is open to debate, but it probably occurred.

I'll leave her hair embedded in the knotting on the garrote as an exercise in speculation.

I didn't say anything about her hair being entwined in the knot, just the necklace that you said was.

As also why most of the bruising and abrasions lie beneath the ligature, whilst if she had been garrotted, similar bruising and/or contusions/abrasion should be evident where the garrote was applied?

While I don't recall where the wording "garrotte" came from in this case it's a misnomer. The "garrotte" is not a real garrotte at all.
If, when you say manual strangulation, you mean someone pulled the cord with their hands instead of with the broken wooden paintbrush handle, I agree with you. I tried to make the same type of knot with a handle like the one we've seen and looped it around a pipe pole (as a substitute for a neck) and it would not slide at all. To tighten it I had to twist it around and around.
Here is what a true garrotte looked like and how it was used.
The ones that are used in the military training have a knot on each side and a loop on each end and they are used in manual strangulation according to the ones I found on the net.

 

[BBB167893]

That description is fairly accurate. The garotte in its true sense, is used by assassins and what-not.

 

[capps]

oh god ... after all this time it's still so hard to look at those pictures.

Looking at that one real close up picture of the mark on JonBenet's face,if I didn't know any better,I would say it almost looks like a cigarette burn.