Lies point us to the truth #2

[Rain on my Parade]

Starting at the beginning ...
Susan Stine

Where was DS? He wasn’t mentioned as saying goodbye.

Interviewer: Boulder Police
Interviewee: John Ramsey
Date of Interview: April 30, 1997
Interviewed At: Boulder District Attorney’s Office
Case: Hasson/Ramsey
Case No: 96-423
JR: Uh, it was probably 8:30 p.m., quarter to nine when we left as I recall. And uh, we had gift baskets for the Walkers, for the Stines, for the Franks, and we left the White’s and we took a basket to the Walkers; as I recall Patsy went in and I stayed in the car; we drove to the Stines and did the same thing, uh, and debated on whether to go to the Franks or not, but it was getting late and that was a ways away, so we decided to go home. So we probably got home about nineish, nine-fifteen I think, drove in the back through the alley into the garage. Uh JonBenet had fallen fast to sleep. Uh, I carried her inside and took her upstairs and put her in bed, put her on her bed. Uh Patsy came up behind me, and then I went down to get Burke ready for bed, he was down in the living room, working on a toy he got putting it together, and tried to get him to go to bed because we had to get up early the next morning, but he wanted to get this toy put together, so I worked with him on that for 10 15 minutes probably; and then I took him up to bed and got his pajamas on, probably brushed his teeth, and then I went up stairs from there and got ready for bed. I read her a little bit. The lights went out around ten-thirtyish or ten-forty.

1997 April 30 - Taped Interrogation interview of Patsy Ramsey by Steve Thomas and Tom Trujillo in Colorado
NE Book Page 47:
Tom Trujillo: "Okay. Got home about 8:30, 9:00. What's the first thing you guys do when you got home that night? Actually, let me step back. Befofe you got home, you went over to.."
Patsy Ramsey: "Walkers and dropped off a little gift... and Stines and dropped off a little gift and drove home and JonBenet was asleep. She had fallen asleep in the car."
Tom Trujillo: "Did you have to wake her up to get her inside or..?"
Patsy Ramsey: "Well, she was just really zonked and John carried her up to her room... and, I, uh, you know, ran up behind him and, or in front of him, I can't remember. Maybe, or it might have been in front of him to turn the bed down. And he laid her down and I got her undressed and put her, I left her shirt on her and, uh, went to the bathroom and tried to find some pajama pants and all I could find was some, like long underwear pants... and put those on."
PR original statement to the police Dec.26th, 1996:
When Officer French arrived at the Ramsey home early that morning, Patsy told him that Jonbenet had gone to bed wearing a red turtleneck. When Jonbenet was found she was wearing a white Gap shirt (the same shirt she had been wearing the previous day).

BR:
Based on Schiller and Thomas’s summaries (see below) we can piece together these aspects of Burke’s account of that evening:

• Jonbenet fell asleep in the car on the way home, but woke up to help carry presents into the house of a friend (the Stines).
  
  
• When they got home, Jonbenet was still awake. She walked in slowly and went up the spiral stairs to bed, just ahead of Patsy.
  
  
• Burke remained downstairs and played with a toy with John. He and John talked about how it was time for bed.
  
  
• He didn't remember when he went to bed.

Was JB asleep? If so, when did she awake to eat the fruit cocktail?

Thread #1

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Clarification on the bloomies:
2000-08-28: Patsy Ramsey Interview - Atlanta, Georgia - August 28, 2000

1 Q. The underwear that she was
2 wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you
3 know where they come from as far as what
4 store?
5 A. Bloomingdales in New York.
6 Q. Who purchased those?
7 A. I did.
8 Q. Do you recall when you purchased
9 them?
10 A. It was, I think, November of '96.
11 Q. In the fall of 1996, how many
12 trips did you make to New York?
13 A. Two, I believe.
14 Q. Do you recall, and again, the
15 same, same qualification I gave you when we
16 started, which is, I understand that you are
17 not going to give me exact dates, but the
18 two trips you made, did you make those with
19 different groups of people?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The first trip, who was that trip
22 with?
23 A. The first trip was a
24 mother-daughter trip with my mother Nedra
25 Paugh, my sister Pam Paugh, friends Susan
1 Flanders from Charlevoix, Michigan, and her
2 daughter and a friend of Susan's, Ms.
3 Kirkpatrick I believe was her name, and her
4 daughter, and JonBenet and myself.
5 Q. And the second trip you made was?
6 A. The second trip we made was with
7 Glen and Susan Stein.
8 Q. Is that the trip -- which trip
9 was the November trip?
10 A. With the children.
11 Q. Was that -- that is the first
12 trip?
13 A. Yes.
2 Q. Which of those two trips did you
3 purchase the Bloomi's?
4 A. The first trip.
5 Q. Was it something that was selected
6 by JonBenet?
7 A. I believe so.
8 Q. Was it your intention, when you
9 purchased those, for those to be for her,
10 not for some third party as a gift?
11 A. I bought some things that were
12 gifts and some things for her. So I
13 don't --
14 Q. Just so I am clear, though, it is
15 your best recollection that the purchase of
16 the underpants, the Bloomi's days of the
17 week, was something that you bought for her,
18 whether it was just I am buying underwear
19 for my kids or these are special, here's a
20 present, that doesn't matter, but it was your
21 intention that she would wear those?
22 A. Well, I think that I bought a
23 package of the -- they came in a package of
24 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.
25 I think I bought a package to give to my
1 niece.
2 Q. Which niece was that?
3 A. Jenny Davis.
4 Q. They came in, if you recall, do
5 you remember that they come in kind of a
6 plastic see-through plastic container.
7 A. Right.
8 Q. They are rolled up?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So if I understand you correctly,
11 you bought one package for Jenny Davis, your
12 niece, and one for JonBenet?
13 A. I am not sure if I bought one or
14 two.
15 Q. Do you remember what size they
16 were?
17 A. Not exactly.
18 Q. JonBenet was found wearing the
19 Wednesday Bloomi's underpants, and your
20 understanding is correct, that is a fact, you
21 can accept that as a fact, when she was
22 found murdered. Those underpants do not fit
23 her. Were you aware of that?
24 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that
25 as a matter of fact --

0082
1 MR. LEVIN: I'm stating that as a
2 matter --
3 MR. WOOD: - for a six-year-old
4 child?
5 MR. LEVIN: I am stating that as
6 a matter of fact.
17 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Ms. Ramsey, your
18 daughter weighed, I believe, 45 pounds;
19 correct?
20 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
21 Q. She was six years old?
22 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
23 Q. What size underpants would you
24 normally buy for her?
25 A. 8 to 10.

0083
1 Q. Ms. Ramsey, would you say that it
2 would, it is safe to assume that, if she is
3 wearing underpants designed for someone who
4 weighs 85 pounds, who is 10 to 12 years old,
5 that those would not fit her?
6 A. Those -- I mean, I am sure she
7 could wear them, yes, but they wouldn't fit
8 as well as a smaller pair.
9 Q. And as a mother, you would know
10 that someone who is 85 pounds is
11 significantly larger than your little
12 six-year-old?

Paulette Paugh Davis is Patsy’s sister. Jenny Davis is Paulette’s daughter. Underwear is something that is always needed as children grow. A gift of bloomies would have been considered a nice, much needed gift, IMO.

The fact that PR is tying herself into the staged crime scene by not only identifying the undies but also stating she purchased them. Why would she do this? There has to be an explanation for their presence. You think the FF perhaps brought them into the home but no writing paper or pens? If you looks at the media link of the house you will see the laundry room in the basement that was left in the middle of wrappings. Since there was a party on the 23rd, it only makes sense that Christmas gifts were moved to the laundry room for wrapping. JR was serving cocktails in the butlers pantry. Who do we suppose knew about that purchase and their location?

 

[UKGuy]

Clarification on the bloomies:
2000-08-28: Patsy Ramsey Interview - Atlanta, Georgia - August 28, 2000

1 Q. The underwear that she was
2 wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you
3 know where they come from as far as what
4 store?
5 A. Bloomingdales in New York.
6 Q. Who purchased those?
7 A. I did.
8 Q. Do you recall when you purchased
9 them?
10 A. It was, I think, November of '96.
11 Q. In the fall of 1996, how many
12 trips did you make to New York?
13 A. Two, I believe.
14 Q. Do you recall, and again, the
15 same, same qualification I gave you when we
16 started, which is, I understand that you are
17 not going to give me exact dates, but the
18 two trips you made, did you make those with
19 different groups of people?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The first trip, who was that trip
22 with?
23 A. The first trip was a
24 mother-daughter trip with my mother Nedra
25 Paugh, my sister Pam Paugh, friends Susan
1 Flanders from Charlevoix, Michigan, and her
2 daughter and a friend of Susan's, Ms.
3 Kirkpatrick I believe was her name, and her
4 daughter, and JonBenet and myself.
5 Q. And the second trip you made was?
6 A. The second trip we made was with
7 Glen and Susan Stein.
8 Q. Is that the trip -- which trip
9 was the November trip?
10 A. With the children.
11 Q. Was that -- that is the first
12 trip?
13 A. Yes.
2 Q. Which of those two trips did you
3 purchase the Bloomi's?
4 A. The first trip.
5 Q. Was it something that was selected
6 by JonBenet?
7 A. I believe so.
8 Q. Was it your intention, when you
9 purchased those, for those to be for her,
10 not for some third party as a gift?
11 A. I bought some things that were
12 gifts and some things for her. So I
13 don't --
14 Q. Just so I am clear, though, it is
15 your best recollection that the purchase of
16 the underpants, the Bloomi's days of the
17 week, was something that you bought for her,
18 whether it was just I am buying underwear
19 for my kids or these are special, here's a
20 present, that doesn't matter, but it was your
21 intention that she would wear those?
22 A. Well, I think that I bought a
23 package of the -- they came in a package of
24 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.
25 I think I bought a package to give to my
1 niece.
2 Q. Which niece was that?
3 A. Jenny Davis.
4 Q. They came in, if you recall, do
5 you remember that they come in kind of a
6 plastic see-through plastic container.
7 A. Right.
8 Q. They are rolled up?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So if I understand you correctly,
11 you bought one package for Jenny Davis, your
12 niece, and one for JonBenet?
13 A. I am not sure if I bought one or
14 two.
15 Q. Do you remember what size they
16 were?
17 A. Not exactly.
18 Q. JonBenet was found wearing the
19 Wednesday Bloomi's underpants, and your
20 understanding is correct, that is a fact, you
21 can accept that as a fact, when she was
22 found murdered. Those underpants do not fit
23 her. Were you aware of that?
24 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that
25 as a matter of fact --

0082
1 MR. LEVIN: I'm stating that as a
2 matter --
3 MR. WOOD: - for a six-year-old
4 child?
5 MR. LEVIN: I am stating that as
6 a matter of fact.
17 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Ms. Ramsey, your
18 daughter weighed, I believe, 45 pounds;
19 correct?
20 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
21 Q. She was six years old?
22 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
23 Q. What size underpants would you
24 normally buy for her?
25 A. 8 to 10.

0083
1 Q. Ms. Ramsey, would you say that it
2 would, it is safe to assume that, if she is
3 wearing underpants designed for someone who
4 weighs 85 pounds, who is 10 to 12 years old,
5 that those would not fit her?
6 A. Those -- I mean, I am sure she
7 could wear them, yes, but they wouldn't fit
8 as well as a smaller pair.
9 Q. And as a mother, you would know
10 that someone who is 85 pounds is
11 significantly larger than your little
12 six-year-old?

Paulette Paugh Davis is Patsy’s sister. Jenny Davis is Paulette’s daughter. Underwear is something that is always needed as children grow. A gift of bloomies would have been considered a nice, much needed gift, IMO.

The fact that PR is tying herself into the staged crime scene by not only identifying the undies but also stating she purchased them. Why would she do this? There has to be an explanation for their presence. You think the FF perhaps brought them into the home but no writing paper or pens? If you looks at the media link of the house you will see the laundry room in the basement that was left in the middle of wrappings. Since there was a party on the 23rd, it only makes sense that Christmas gifts were moved to the laundry room for wrapping. JR was serving cocktails in the butlers pantry. Who do we suppose knew about that purchase and their location?

Rain on my Parade,

2 Q. Which of those two trips did you
3 purchase the Bloomi's?
4 A. The first trip.
5 Q. Was it something that was selected
6 by JonBenet?
7 A. I believe so.
8 Q. Was it your intention, when you
9 purchased those, for those to be for her,
10 not for some third party as a gift?
11 A. I bought some things that were
12 gifts and some things for her. So I
13 don't --
14 Q. Just so I am clear, though, it is
15 your best recollection that the purchase of
16 the underpants, the Bloomi's days of the
17 week, was something that you bought for her,
18 whether it was just I am buying underwear
19 for my kids or these are special, here's a
20 present, that doesn't matter, but it was your
21 intention that she would wear those?
22 A. Well, I think that I bought a
23 package of the -- they came in a package of
24 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.

So here is Patsy telling BPD that she purchased Day of the Week Bloomingdale's for JonBenet.

Now if those Bloomingdale's had been size-12's, remember as Patsy stated, JonBenet selected them, then this would mean there were 24 pairs pairs of size-12 Bloomingdales in her underwear drawer.

Yet here is what BPD found:

1 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you
2 aware that these were the size of panties
3 that she was wearing, and this has been
4 publicized, it is out in the open, that they
5 were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of
6 that?
7 A. I have become aware of that, yes.
8 Q. And how did you become aware of
9 that?
10 A. Something I read, I am sure.
11 Q. And I will just state a fact
12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
13 taken out of, by the police, out of
14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
15 that where she kept -
16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
17 Q. -- where you were describing that
18 they were just put in that drawer?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was
21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?

So a minimum of six pairs found in her underwear drawer would have been size-6 Bloomingdale's purchased on the NY trip.

The fact that PR is tying herself into the staged crime scene by not only identifying the undies but also stating she purchased them. Why would she do this? There has to be an explanation for their presence.

Assuming Patsy staged the wine-cellar crime-scene, why did she not leave the remaining size-12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer as she was later to claim?

Answer: She never knew about the size-12's, so never knew to fabricate a story.

Who do we suppose knew about that purchase and their location?

Well JonBenet knew as she was present when they were purchased.

James Kolar in his Book says BR stated in some interview that he visited the basement on Christmas Day afternoon. Probably searching for more gifts?

Best candidate for dressing JonBenet in the size-12's is Burke, both parents would have known the size-12's were a staging red flag, not so an impulsive, materialistic boy, for whom pants would just be pants, except they both had Wednesday on them?

 

[Whatsunderthenighttable96]

Rain on my Parade,

So here is Patsy telling BPD that she purchased Day of the Week Bloomingdale's for JonBenet.

Now if those Bloomingdale's had been size-12's, remember as Patsy stated, JonBenet selected them, then this would mean there were 24 pairs pairs of size-12 Bloomingdales in her underwear drawer.

Yet here is what BPD found:

So a minimum of six pairs found in her underwear drawer would have been size-6 Bloomingdale's purchased on the NY trip.


Assuming Patsy staged the wine-cellar crime-scene, why did she not leave the remaining size-12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer as she was later to claim?

Answer: She never knew about the size-12's, so never knew to fabricate a story.


Well JonBenet knew as she was present when they were purchased.

James Kolar in his Book says BR stated in some interview that he visited the basement on Christmas Day afternoon. Probably searching for more gifts?

Best candidate for dressing JonBenet in the size-12's is Burke, both parents would have known the size-12's were a staging red flag, not so an impulsive, materialistic boy, for whom pants would just be pants, except they both had Wednesday on them?

Thank you for the transcript.

Absolutely. Burke. Or Burke and a young accomplice, or Burke et al
I briefly thought Ariana via LHP might know, be drawn to them in her size if they were moved during party prep like the paint tote, to the basement. I don’t like this angle because it feels like a completely dead end, they weren’t involved… but anyone at the party on Dec 23 who went to the basement could know. Any child playing in the basement Dec 24 and 25 could know.

I also have a random thought whether the neighbors boy was stealing objects as well as milk and cookies. “We’ve lost so many cameras.” I don’t know. Like taking evidence away from the crime scene. Neighborhood kids. She ran into someone who wasn’t supposed to be there. A fifth personality.

The wrapping paper is in the laundry room where I assume the gifts to be wrapped are. I can’t sit through the crime scene video again, but I think the gifts were in a pile on the washer / dryer/ folding counter top. This is also the alleged location of the cutesy photo I wish someone someday would describe, someone must have leaked a description of it over 25 years, or is it really not that interesting?

JB herself would know those pairs of larger underwear were there if a replacement pair were needed (like when she discarded them on the lawn and EC looked up her dress per John)- but! If she were bleeding from the vaginal trauma there would be more blood drops at the crime scene of her moving around and it doesn’t seem that there were so then she was abused while unconscious or bound did not move or stand after? So someone else, probably her brother, or an accomplice, staged clothing and intruder props on and around her?

 

[UKGuy]

Thank you for the transcript.

Absolutely. Burke. Or Burke and a young accomplice, or Burke et al
I briefly thought Ariana via LHP might know, be drawn to them in her size if they were moved during party prep like the paint tote, to the basement. I don’t like this angle because it feels like a completely dead end, they weren’t involved… but anyone at the party on Dec 23 who went to the basement could know.

The wrapping paper is in the laundry room where I assume the gifts to be wrapped are. I can’t sit through the crime scene video again, but I think the gifts were in a pile on the washer / dryer/ folding counter top. This is also the alleged location of the cutesy photo I wish someone someday would describe, someone must have leaked a description of it over 25 years, or is it really not that interesting?

JB herself would know those pairs of larger underwear were there if a replacement pair were needed (like when she discarded them on the lawn and EC looked up her dress per John)- but! If she were bleeding from the vaginal trauma there would be more blood drops at the crime scene of her moving around and it doesn’t seem that there were so then she was abused while unconscious or bound did not move or stand after? So someone else, probably her brother, or an accomplice, staged clothing and intruder props on and around her?

Whatsunderthenighttable96,
Another interesting thing about the size-12's is that BPD have never confirmed if they had been part of the Partially Opened Gifts found in the basement!

I have a question and it feels gauche taboo or hush hush so I am avoiding making a new thread: how would Bluecrab get contacted to 1) stop naming names on WS and 2) delete his incriminating content for fear of legal action.

It's alleged that the Ramsey's hired private eyes to track down BlueCrab via his ip-address. Where he was given a cease and desist notice on the JonBenet case, you know: It might be beneficial for your health if you stop posting about JonBenet, etc?

Bottom line is he did stop posting.

.

 

[icedtea4me]

<snip>Paulette Paugh Davis is Patsy’s sister. Jenny Davis is Paulette’s daughter. </snip>

Was Paulette ever questioned by the BPD as to whether or not she had a daughter named Jenny?

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Was Paulette ever questioned by the BPD as to whether or not she had a daughter named Jenny?

icedtea4me,
Your guess is as good as mine. Such a strange question.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

JonBenet.

Now if those Bloomingdale's had been size-12's, remember as Patsy stated, JonBenet selected them, then this would mean there were 24 pairs pairs of size-12 Bloomingdales in her underwear drawer.

UKGuy,
How did you come up with the number of 24 pairs?

So a minimum of six pairs found in her underwear drawer would have been size-6 Bloomingdale's purchased on the NY trip.

6 bloomies (size 6) out of the 15 pairs sounds reasonable.

Well JonBenet knew as she was present when they were purchased.

James Kolar in his Book says BR stated in some interview that he visited the basement on Christmas Day afternoon. Probably searching for more gifts?

Best candidate for dressing JonBenet in the size-12's is Burke, both parents would have known the size-12's were a staging red flag, not so an impulsive, materialistic boy, for whom pants would just be pants, except they both had Wednesday on them?

I buy this. But I still can’t discount PR involvement.

 

[icedtea4me]

icedtea4me,
Your guess is as good as mine. Such a strange question.

Strange? I don't think so.

Where's Jenny?

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
How did you come up with the number of 24 pairs?



6 bloomies (size 6) out of the 15 pairs sounds reasonable.



I buy this. But I still can’t discount PR involvement.

Rain on my Parade,

How did you come up with the number of 24 pairs?

Oops, that's a typo, fat fingers. It's meant to be 14, e.g. 7 pairs plus 7 pairs.

For clarity:
2000-08-28: Patsy Ramsey Interview - Atlanta, Georgia - August 28, 2000

2 Q. Which of those two trips did you
3 purchase the Bloomi's?
4 A. The first trip.
5 Q. Was it something that was selected
6 by JonBenet?
7 A. I believe so.

So Patsy says JonBenet picked the Bloomingdale's underwear she wanted then Patsy purchased them.

2000-08-28: Patsy Ramsey Interview - Atlanta, Georgia - August 28, 2000

8 Q. Was it your intention, when you
9 purchased those, for those to be for her,
10 not for some third party as a gift?
11 A. I bought some things that were
12 gifts and some things for her. So I
13 don't --

Here Patsy is saying she purchased other gifts at Bloomingdale's as well as the underwear for JonBenet.

2000-08-28: Patsy Ramsey Interview - Atlanta, Georgia - August 28, 2000

22 A. Well, I think that I bought a
23 package of the -- they came in a package of
24 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.
25 I think I bought a package to give to my
1 niece.
2 Q. Which niece was that?
3 A. Jenny Davis.
4 Q. They came in, if you recall, do
5 you remember that they come in kind of a
6 plastic see-through plastic container.
7 A. Right.
8 Q. They are rolled up?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So if I understand you correctly,
11 you bought one package for Jenny Davis, your
12 niece, and one for JonBenet?
13 A. I am not sure if I bought one or
14 two.
15 Q. Do you remember what size they
16 were?
17 A. Not exactly.

At this point Patsy is overcome with ramnesia, even on the size, never mind the number!

So Patsy claims she placed Jenny's size-12 Bloomingdale's underwear into JonBenet's underwear drawer, whenever and for whatever reason.

As above, Patsy also says JonBenet personally selected a pack of Bloomingdale's underwear which she purchased for her.

So at this point if JonBenet had specifically selected a pack of size-12 Bloomingdale's this must mean at one point there were 14 pairs of size-12 Bloomingdale's in JonBenet's underwear drawer, i.e. Jenny's gift and JonBenet's selection!

BPD found no size-12 underwear anywhere in the house.

What they did find:
2000-08-28: Patsy Ramsey Interview - Atlanta, Georgia - August 28, 2000

10 A. Something I read, I am sure.
11 Q. And I will just state a fact
12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
13 taken out of, by the police, out of
14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
15 that where she kept - ...

So within the 15 pairs these might include 7 pair of brand new Bloomingdale underwear, i.e. size-6.

Alternatively JonBenet may have worn a brand new pair of her size-6 Bloomingdale's underwear to the White's party. Why bother shopping if you don't wear your picks?

Suggesting these are missing, i.e. a Wednesday pair? BPD has never revealed the details of JonBenet's underwear.

You can bet LHP will have been asked about what she washed in the weeks running up to Christmas, e.g. any size-6 Bloomingdale's?

So on the available evidence Patsy purchased size-12 Bloomingdale's for Jenny Davis and size-6 Bloomingdale's for JonBenet.

Towards Christmas Patsy and JonBenet went on another shopping trip where JonBenet selected the White Gap top and possibly the black velvet pants?

You can definitely sense JonBenet is developing her own identity and appreciation for fashion, and it does not mirror Patsy's.

I buy this. But I still can’t discount PR involvement.

Sure, Patsy was involved, the forensic evidence at the crime-scene underlines this.

Who was she staging for, John or Burke?

Also that Patsy did indeed purchase size-12 Bloomingdale's on her November NY trip has never been established.

Meaning the size-12's might just be a fabrication by Patsy to cover for JonBenet wearing them, and that Patsy purchased them at a much earlier date?

Like I said before BPD are not saying if they contacted Bloomingdale's Accounts Department or checked Patsy's credit card statements?

All the above and more is why the size-12's matter and represent a very large red flag!

.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Strange? I don't think so.

Where's Jenny?

icedtea4me,
As Paulette has always remained in the background; I can not answer your question. Are you saying Jenny doesn’t exist?

Why would PR mention Jenny during a police interrogation if she didn’t?

 

[Rain on my Parade]

At this point Patsy is overcome with ramnesia, even on the size, never mind the number!

So Patsy claims she placed Jenny's size-12 Bloomingdale's underwear into JonBenet's underwear drawer, whenever and for whatever reason.

As above, Patsy also says JonBenet personally selected a pack of Bloomingdale's underwear which she purchased for her.

UKGuy,
PR ramsnesia could be that she was distancing herself from them. Although she did profess to not only buy the size 12 bloomies for Jenny, she also said she put them in JB drawer. The only reason I can think of that PR put these underwear in JB drawer would be to put over a diaper. Theses size 12’s were for a child weighing 85 lbs. JB was 45 pounds. As a mother, I see the scenario like this: JB likes the underwear so PR buys one for her and another for JD as it’s an easy gift.

So at this point if JonBenet had specifically selected a pack of size-12 Bloomingdale's this must mean at one point there were 14 pairs of size-12 Bloomingdale's in JonBenet's underwear drawer, i.e. Jenny's gift and JonBenet's selection!

BPD found no size-12 underwear anywhere in the house.

Again, I honestly don’t believe PR ever put the size 12’s in JB drawer. Yes, the rest of the size 12’s disappear but are later found by the R’s and turned over. I am in agreement that these size 12’s we’re probably purchased on eBay. The original package of size 12’s, along with the Wednesday size 6 bloomies, pink pajamas bottoms etc disappeared.

Sure, Patsy was involved, the forensic evidence at the crime-scene underlines this.

Who was she staging for, John or Burke?

Or perhaps for herself. Although I’m more inclined to go with staging for BR.

Also that Patsy did indeed purchase size-12 Bloomingdale's on her November NY trip has never been established.

Meaning the size-12's might just be a fabrication by Patsy to cover for JonBenet wearing them, and that Patsy purchased them at a much earlier date?

Like I said before BPD are not saying if they contacted Bloomingdale's Accounts Department or checked Patsy's credit card statements?

Considering this fact, one would question why they aren’t saying. It’s like the phone records that magically disappeared. This case screams big money cover up.

All the above and more is why the size-12's matter and represent a very large red flag!

The mere fact that PR states she bought them for JD, put them in JB drawer; yet zero pairs were found in JB drawer, and JB (postmortem) was found with a pair of size 12 bloomies further states coverup!

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
PR ramsnesia could be that she was distancing herself from them. Although she did profess to not only buy the size 12 bloomies for Jenny, she also said she put them in JB drawer. The only reason I can think of that PR put these underwear in JB drawer would be to put over a diaper. Theses size 12’s were for a child weighing 85 lbs. JB was 45 pounds. As a mother, I see the scenario like this: JB likes the underwear so PR buys one for her and another for JD as it’s an easy gift.



Again, I honestly don’t believe PR ever put the size 12’s in JB drawer. Yes, the rest of the size 12’s disappear but are later found by the R’s and turned over. I am in agreement that these size 12’s we’re probably purchased on eBay. The original package of size 12’s, along with the Wednesday size 6 bloomies, pink pajamas bottoms etc disappeared.



Or perhaps for herself. Although I’m more inclined to go with staging for BR.



Considering this fact, one would question why they aren’t saying. It’s like the phone records that magically disappeared. This case screams big money cover up.



The mere fact that PR states she bought them for JD, put them in JB drawer; yet zero pairs were found in JB drawer, and JB (postmortem) was found with a pair of size 12 bloomies further states coverup!

Rain on my Parade,

PR ramsnesia could be that she was distancing herself from them. Although she did profess to not only buy the size 12 bloomies for Jenny, she also said she put them in JB drawer. The only reason I can think of that PR put these underwear in JB drawer would be to put over a diaper. Theses size 12’s were for a child weighing 85 lbs. JB was 45 pounds. As a mother, I see the scenario like this: JB likes the underwear so PR buys one for her and another for JD as it’s an easy gift.

Yes, it looks that way, why does Patsy not make the diaper claim, as it appears valid enough?

Again, I honestly don’t believe PR ever put the size 12’s in JB drawer. Yes, the rest of the size 12’s disappear but are later found by the R’s and turned over. I am in agreement that these size 12’s we’re probably purchased on eBay. The original package of size 12’s, along with the Wednesday size 6 bloomies, pink pajamas bottoms etc disappeared.

Yes, ITA. Underlines how it was really a rushed job. Did the missing size-6 and size-12's leave inside a doll taken by Pamela Paugh?

Or perhaps for herself. Although I’m more inclined to go with staging for BR.

Patsy offers no explanation for JonBenet wearing the size-12's beyond saying she put them into JonBenet's underwear drawer, and you know what BPD think of that. So it is highly improbable that Patsy was staging for herself !

Also Patsy claims JonBenet dressed herself for the White's party and she never saw what underwear JonBenet chose, despite Patsy normally overseeing JonBenet's washing routine.

Even when asked what underwear was JonBenet wearing when she redressed her in the long johns, Patsy said she never noticd, duh !

Considering this fact, one would question why they aren’t saying. It’s like the phone records that magically disappeared. This case screams big money cover up.

They are not saying because the size-12's blow a hole in the Ramsey version of events.

Cover up: definitely to mask the case being BDI or the hand of Hunter to assist John, you decide?

The mere fact that PR states she bought them for JD, put them in JB drawer; yet zero pairs were found in JB drawer, and JB (postmortem) was found with a pair of size 12 bloomies further states coverup!

You got it. This is one reason why the case is definitely not PDI, i.e. she was an intelligent woman.

BPD in their interviews know enough not to ask any relevant follow up questions, and Hunter behind the scenes is making sure the forensic evidence is funneled out of public view.

This strategy continues with the Cold Case Status, meaning little evidence reaches the public domain.

It all stays stored away is some depositary, presumably somewhere in Colorado state.

.

 

[887sMtreme]

Rain on my Parade,

Yes, it looks that way, why does Patsy not make the diaper claim, as it appears valid enough?

Yes, ITA. Underlines how it was really a rushed job. Did the missing size-6 and size-12's leave inside a doll taken by Pamela Paugh?


Patsy offers no explanation for JonBenet wearing the size-12's beyond saying she put them into JonBenet's underwear drawer, and you know what BPD think of that. So it is highly improbable that Patsy was staging for herself !

Also Patsy claims JonBenet dressed herself for the White's party and she never saw what underwear JonBenet chose, despite Patsy normally overseeing JonBenet's washing routine.

Even when asked what underwear was JonBenet wearing when she redressed her in the long johns, Patsy said she never noticd, duh !


They are not saying because the size-12's blow a hole in the Ramsey version of events.

Cover up: definitely to mask the case being BDI or the hand of Hunter to assist John, you decide?


You got it. This is one reason why the case is definitely not PDI, i.e. she was an intelligent woman.

BPD in their interviews know enough not to ask any relevant follow up questions, and Hunter behind the scenes is making sure the forensic evidence is funneled out of public view.

This strategy continues with the Cold Case Status, meaning little evidence reaches the public domain.

It all stays stored away is some depositary, presumably somewhere in Colorado state.
Snipped for focus

Again, I honestly don’t believe PR ever put the size 12’s in JB drawer. Yes, the rest of the size 12’s disappear but are later found by the R’s and turned over. I am in agreement that these size 12’s we’re probably purchased on eBay. The original package of size 12’s, along with the Wednesday size 6 bloomies, pink pajamas bottoms etc disappeared.

Just a reminder, eBay had not yet taken off at that time. The more common route to ordering something from Bloomies in those days was to put in a phone order with a credit card.

 

[mickey2942]

This type of minutiae doesn't mean anything. INMO. The real problem with this case has always been the bumbling keystone cops of Boulder, CO. The scene should have been secured the minute they entered the home.

This is a textbook case, that should be taught at every single POST academy, for junior officers. Secure the scene, call in a supervisor. The family should have been kept in one area, while the house was completely searched by an officer. And the friends, should have been told to leave. Since no correct procedures were followed, why bother with the rest?!

 

[887sMtreme]

Snipped for focus

This is a textbook case, that should be taught at every single POST academy, for junior officers. Secure the scene, call in a supervisor. The family should have been kept in one area, while the house was completely searched by an officer. And the friends, should have been told to leave. Since no correct procedures were followed, why bother with the rest?!

Critical points to which I doubt anyone would object. We often discuss big-picture issues with this case. I think it’s normal to dabble in trivia as well, as often happens when conversations lag a bit.

Are you aware of any LE organizations offering the training you recommend? That, at least, would be a worthy legacy on the 25th anniversary of the JonBenét Ramsey travesty.

 

[mickey2942]

Snipped for focus
Critical points to which I doubt anyone would object. We often discuss big-picture issues with this case. I think it’s normal to dabble in trivia as well, as often happens when conversations lag a bit.

Are you aware of any LE organizations offering the training you recommend? That, at least, would be a worthy legacy on the 25th anniversary of the JonBenét Ramsey travesty.

I don't know, but post case analysis is critical for LEO. I respectfully suggest, that if correct procedures had been followed, the case could have been solved.

Instead, it was sloppy, and careless police work. No excuse for the disaster. INMO, there was a deliberate, planned event to obfuscate the officers.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Just a reminder, eBay had not yet taken off at that time. The more common route to ordering something from Bloomies in those days was to put in a phone order with a credit card.

887sMtreme,
Are you sure?
History of eBay: Facts and Timeline

 

[Rain on my Parade]

This type of minutiae doesn't mean anything. INMO. The real problem with this case has always been the bumbling keystone cops of Boulder, CO. The scene should have been secured the minute they entered the home.

This is a textbook case, that should be taught at every single POST academy, for junior officers. Secure the scene, call in a supervisor. The family should have been kept in one area, while the house was completely searched by an officer. And the friends, should have been told to leave. Since no correct procedures were followed, why bother with the rest?!

mickey2942,

Your are correct, the BPD fumbled in this case. Considering this fact, it only makes sense that JR was on the phone talking to his higher government official friends on how to best proceed before the first officer arrived on scene. The phone records disappearance speaks volumes. This is why we still have so many questions. The evidence locker is locked up tight! The perp knows this as stated, “let the evidence or lack thereof speak for itself”.

 

[887sMtreme]

887sMtreme,
Are you sure?
History of eBay: Facts and Timeline

Yup. Quite sure. It took a couple/few years for eBay to flesh out enough to have major retailers marketing their stuff through eBay.
As I recall it, eBay would not have been anyone’s first choice for such a specific item. It was easy enough to just call the store’s order center if you knew the store and that they carried what you wanted. Bloomies had a big catalog that Patsy might have gotten in her mail. The phone number would have been prominently featured in it.