link between Johnny G, other Iowa boys, and Jacob W?

[Insguru]

I'll always defer to those who know better than me, but i'm still having trouble convincing myself that the boy in the pics is him. The eyebrows, forehead and hairline don't seem the same to me as the pic i'm comparing it to. Granted, under the circumstances of the pics, i don't expect a great match. But I just can't be sure. Its close..what do you guys think?

 

[Insguru]

Apparently, the scuttlebut is that something significant is going to be happening very soon in this case. Noreen has said this twice now.

Since this appears to be our new thread, I'm gonna take my shoes off and make myself at home. I don't get the feeling that the old thread is reopening any time soon.

:silenced: :silenced: :silenced:

William, do you have any kind of a "gut" feeling on this? or what it could be? Maybe he's going to come forward and name names?

 

[William R Thomas]

William, do you have any kind of a "gut" feeling on this? or what it could be? Maybe he's going to come forward and name names?

Maybe. we'll see. If everything Noreen is saying is true, it has reached that either poop, or get off the pot stage. The pubic has been listening to Noreen repeat 4 main points over the years:


1) That johnny is still alive
2) That Law Enforcement has buried this case every chance they got
3) That There have been powerful people involved at every level in the public and private sector
4) That Johnny was targeted and kidnapped by by a pedphile ring

According to NOREEN herself, the case has reached a boiling point. Several of the things she has said throughout the years are on the verge of becoming substantiated.

What will it lead to? Your guess is as good as mine. Perhaps more perjury convictions. Perhaps a massive scandal unlike anything this country has ever seen. Perhaps more people close to the case will suddenly die or dsappear.

I will say, someone who was in a position to know, now deceased, VERY CLOSE TO WHERE IT ALL HAPPENED, laid it out for Noreen, in detail, before HE died.

Sorry, but I have already recently been threatened with a defamation/libel/slander lawsuit by someones attorney who was involved with Gosch, and that was for merely asking questions about the case in an email. Some of the people involved are cloaked in so much legal protection, still to this day, it's no wonder they were never convicted.

You'll have to figure out who the above 2 people are on your own.

In the next 6 months, and probably sooner, Noreen, et al. will have the opportunity. What they do with it is the question.

 

[loganone]

Maybe. we'll see. If everything Noreen is saying is true, it has reached that either poop, or get off the pot stage. The pubic has been listening to Noreen repeat 4 main points over the years:


1) That johnny is still alive
2) That Law Enforcement has buried this case every chance they got
3) That There have been powerful people involved at every level in the public and private sector
4) That Johnny was targeted and kidnapped by by a pedphile ring

According to NOREEN herself, the case has reached a boiling point. Several of the things she has said throughout the years are on the verge of becoming substantiated.

What will it lead to? Your guess is as good as mine. Perhaps more perjury convictions. Perhaps a massive scandal unlike anything this country has ever seen. Perhaps more people close to the case will suddenly die or dsappear.

I will say, someone who was in a position to know, now deceased, VERY CLOSE TO WHERE IT ALL HAPPENED, laid it out for Noreen, in detail, before HE died.

Sorry, but I have already recently been threatened with a defamation/libel/slander lawsuit by someones attorney who was involved with Gosch, and that was for merely asking questions about the case in an email. Some of the people involved are cloaked in so much legal protection, still to this day, it's no wonder they were never convicted.

You'll have to figure out who the above 2 people are on your own.

In the next 6 months, and probably sooner, Noreen, et al. will have the opportunity. What they do with it is the question.

Please by no means take this post to be an attack, as it is not my intentions.
Where is the proof that Johnny is still alive?
Also if the person that laid it all out for Noreen is dead, why not name him now. Let everyone else start looking into what he had to say.

My gut tells me Johnny was taken by a pedphile ring, but my head can't grasp this fact without verifiable proof from creditable sources. What i mean by that is. Names, dates, details that can be verified not by a website that covers conspiracy theories, not by testimony from questionable witnesses, but by verified police reports, and major news sources.

Again I want to state that in no way do I mean this post as an attack, becuase the information that you have shared William has opened my eyes to alot of things, and I respect you and your thoughts.

And remember a defamation/libel/slander lawsuit doesn't stand a chance if what is being said can be proved.

 

[William R Thomas]

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[Lurker Steve]

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

[beakiebean]

I've been pondering this for a couple hours since I finished reading this thread just thinking about the different things that could have happened. I made a list-some of these are obviously more far fetched than others but I thought maybe instead of focusing just on the pedo ring/no pedo ring theories that this might spark an idea or thought for someone. I guess I'm just trying to think outside of the general theories we have going.

1.) Johnny was abducted and killed within a short time of his abduction by a stranger/pedophile/serial killer.
2.) Johnny was abducted and kept alive for a number of years as a victim of a pedophile ring.
3.) Johnny was abducted and kept alive for a number of years by an unknown individual or individuals not connected to a ring.
4.) Johnny ran away and is alive today.
5.) Johnny ran away and is now deceased.
6.) Johnny was killed by a friend or family member or was killed by an unknown assailant at the behest of a friend or family member.
7.) Johnny was accidently killed (ie struck by a car) and his body was hidden to cover that up.
8.).???? what else? I'm sure there are other possibilities I haven't thought of.

edited because I can't seem to count.

 

[Pablo]

I read and posted on the ‘all threads merged here’ and subsequent ‘Johny 2’ threads. I miss the discussion and was sad to see the threads closed (bickering?)

In any case, with the heading of ‘links between Johnny…Jacob W’ on this thread I figure it’s the appropriate place to continue discussing the possible ring scenario. Please LMK if there is a more appropriate posting place.

Sorry about length, I was hoping to catch up:

Post 25: Wasn’t the colonel later identified as col. Aquino? And hasn’t his name come up in at least 2 investigations in similar matters? Didn’t Billy Gibson say he was with Johnny there in Colorado on the AMW series? It is interesting. I don’t remember any names quoted from Paul mentioning victim names in Colorado. I wonder exactly how much and how detailed the info is that is not made public (only some testimony and few excerpts from (apparently) several diaries).

(Regarding the can on dresser, earlier posts of antiseptic sound better to me, but for what its worth, my initial impressions caused me to think of the brand names 3M and Scotch. Don’t know why.)

Regarding the room I think the similarities between the headboards in the pictures suggests the same room or hotel (or chain).

According to Noreen, neither the police nor FBI has checked out the website where at least one of these pics was found. I hope that’s not the case because it seems there’s a wealth of information in the photo.

Regarding:

‘They are not recent photos or even pictures of johnny when he was 17. I know that there are "trophy photos" but wouldnt there be more pictures out there of differnet ages? I only prepose this because I still wonder if he is even alive.’

Do you think this is the end of the ‘publication’ of pictures of this type? I do wonder.

Regarding:

‘If Johnny was my son and visited me in the middle of the night there would be no way in hell he would be leaving again’

(This argument relies on the existence of a ring, and won’t be convincing if you’ve already discounted one)

Considering Noreen’s shock, and Johnny’s age at the time, plus perhaps a ‘hardness of character’ of Johnny and his companion, I wonder about that, and also if she had any level of control or a choice. When considering the child that was abducted, I see the thinking, but let’s face it; he would NOT be the same ‘child’ who was abducted, just her grown son. Also, If say, Roy were to argue that Paul B. should be prosecuted for his crimes even when under the influence of a ring, what does that say about Johnny Gosch? As I understand, its been stated he’s implicated in similar crimes. That might have something to do with a decision, but more likely circumstances didn’t allow that level of thought. Maybe, for them, the issue of safety determined that Johnny was not going to stick around.

Regarding only a ‘single source’ (Decamp’s Bonacci and collaborating Omaha kids) of evidence pointing to a ring and Johnny’s still being alive:

According to AMW, sightings include contact with a woman in Oklahoma (1983). There was a Valentine's Day, 1988 letter from ‘Johnny’ to Noreen referencing this never made public contact. Also, on AMW in 1993 Jimmy Gibson said he was still alive.

According to Gunderson, Mrs. Caradori told Noreen Gosch in 2000, her husband told her “I know what happened to Johnny Gosch, the boy is still alive, I'm going to call his parents”. And (via Gunderson) 20/20 interviewed several victims of various abuses who claimed to have known Johhny, including Antoine La Vey's son (timeframe?).

Most would claim a varied credibility of the sources but all-in-all still a considerable argument, especially when looking further into details. Does anyone know of any other sources/incidents of post abduction evidence of his being alive?

Regarding the math in Post 13. In retrospect, the prominence of pic’s on milk cartons gives me the impression of significant ‘stock’ if something of the sort were occurring. As a kid I was reading any jokes or riddles more than the missing kids, and drinking the milk. Maybe there weren’t a large number of kids on all those cartons.

And about that: I was getting ready to post about what Decamp (others, in the 90’s) says about the FBI tracking nationally, car thefts, and etc. but not missing children.

A visit to the FBI’s site http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/missingpersons.htm gives a number of 58,081 (kids <18 yrs old) active records for ‘05. If I interpret correctly, however, the activity is 14x that: 834,536 records added, 844,838 records deleted/cleared for ‘05. Strange statistics, but there. What gives Decamp? Site says implemented in ’75. Hopefully yearly totals back to ’75 are easily accessible.

 

[cappuccina]

...I do not blame her....She lost it when her son disappeared...

The only way she can protect her already fragile mind is to convince herself of some type of complicated scenario wherein her child is still alive...

Like Jacob Wetterling, Johnny was probably kidnapped and murdered within a few hours of his disappearance...

And, as I beleive to be the case with Jacob Wetterling, it is probaby a local person who committed the crime, and someone who was watching/stalking kids...

 

[William R Thomas]

...I do not blame her....She lost it when her son disappeared...

The only way she can protect her already fragile mind is to convince herself of some type of complicated scenario wherein her child is still alive...

Like Jacob Wetterling, Johnny was probably kidnapped and murdered within a few hours of his disappearance...

And, as I beleive to be the case with Jacob Wetterling, it is probaby a local person who committed the crime, and someone who was watching/stalking kids...

Thats quite a bold statement about someone you have never met or spoken to. In real life, Noreen comes across as anything but "Mentally Ill".

 

[HeartofTexas]

It's sad to think that anyone would believe Noreen Gosch chose this "path" to walk down for 24+ years of her life... a path where she is ridiculed at every point of the way, a path where people feel comfortable calling her mentally ill. In reality she is a mother who worked tirelessly in the beginning to enact laws that would assist families in locating missing children. It wasn't until other people came to her and told her about Johnny still being alive that she changed courses. I find no reason to ridicule her, and I find no reason to believe an intelligent woman would subject herself to continued ridicule for 24+ years without feeling there was a valid reason to continue on the path she's on.

 

[HeartofTexas]

I'd also like to point out that, according to this reference, eighty (80) children originally came forward with similar accusations.

VICTIM/WITNESSES NAME PROMINENT CITIZENS AS PERPETRATORS
​

Eighty children initially came forward as a result of newspaper publicity of the raid and subsequent stories in the local news. These children identified some of the most prominent citizens in the Omaha area as involved, including then Omaha Chief of Police, Bob Wadman; former Omaha World Herald newspaper publisher, Harold Andersen; Eugene Mahoney, former Omaha vice squad officer and later head of the Nebraska Forestry Service (he has a park named after him); former Omaha World Herald entertainment columnist, Peter Citron; Alan Baer, Knights of Ak-Sar-Ben, Financier; and Omaha County Judge Theodore Carlson. The children who came forward reported, among other things, satanic ceremonies of human and animal sacrifice.

http://www.johnnygosch.com/gunderson.htm

All children except later recanted their stories after seeing that Alisha Owen and Paul Bonacci were imprisoned for NOT recanting their stories.

I also find it highly suspicious, or outrageously coincidental, that the former Chief of Police in Omaha (Robert Wadman), was later the Chief of Police for the small town of Aurora, Illinois, where Gary Caradori's plane went down.

 

[cappuccina]

...making fun of them in any way....Also, you are dead wrong in saying that she "chose" to be mentally ill...Now, that's actually not a nice thing to say at all... Obviously, this woman was completely traumatized by what happened to her son...That is totally understandable...Unfortunately, some people are less resilient than others, and unlike Patty Wetterling, she was not as resilient, and thus her beliefs about what happened to her son have helped her to insulate herself...

Statistically, most children kidnapped by strangers are murdered within the first few hours of their disappearance (FACT).

 

[HeartofTexas]

As to the possible link between Johnny Gosch's abduction and other possible abductions, I found this information to be interesting. Obviously, I have no way of knowing if this statement is true.

Q: Is there any connection between Johnny's kidnapping and that of Eugene Martin from Des Moines, less than two years later? A: A few months before the Eugene Martin kidnapping, a local private investigator, Sam Soda called Noreen, telling her there would be another kidnapping. It would take place the second weekend in August 1984 and it would be a paperboy from the southside of Des Moines. Eugene Martin was kidnapped the second weekend in August 1984, from the southside of Des Moines and he was a paperboy. According to evidence both kidnappings are connected.

http://www.johnnygosch.com/CaseFAQ.htm

 

[HeartofTexas]

Also, you are dead wrong in saying that she "chose" to be mentally ill...Now, that's actually not a nice thing to say at all...

Please show me the exact sentence where I say she "chose" to be mentally ill. Thank you.

 

[2sisters]

I have a serious question. I just am having trouble getting this. A pdophile is someone who is interested in young kids. There really is no need for a pedophile to keep an child "after their prime" so to speak. So why are these kids kept alive, like Noreen calims about Johnny/ Shouldn't they be killed to shut them up or simply b/c they are useless to them now?

 

[inquiringmindz]

It's sad to think that anyone would believe Noreen Gosch chose this "path" to walk down for 24+ years of her life... a path where she is ridiculed at every point of the way, a path where people feel comfortable calling her mentally ill. In reality she is a mother who worked tirelessly in the beginning to enact laws that would assist families in locating missing children. It wasn't until other people came to her and told her about Johnny still being alive that she changed courses. I find no reason to ridicule her, and I find no reason to believe an intelligent woman would subject herself to continued ridicule for 24+ years without feeling there was a valid reason to continue on the path she's on.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

I agree 100% with the above statement. I too have conversed with Noreen a time or two and she in no way, shape, or form acts or speaks like a mentally ill person. She did not choose to have her son taken away from her. She did not choose to live the last 24+ years without her son. She did not choose the path that she has been given. She has done everything within her ability to find justice for Johnny. She still is still seeking this today. She has chosen to travel down a path, a path fighting for the rights of missing children. When she dreamed of how her life would be, this wasn't the dream - this has been a nightmare for her. No one would choose this willingly.

Just my :twocents:

 

[inquiringmindz]

I have a serious question. I just am having trouble getting this. A pdophile is someone who is interested in young kids. There really is no need for a pedophile to keep an child "after their prime" so to speak. So why are these kids kept alive, like Noreen calims about Johnny/ Shouldn't they be killed to shut them up or simply b/c they are useless to them now?

From what I understand, the children have been kept around to help kidnap, lure, and train other children into the pedophile ring. The older child becomes somewhat like a mentor to the younger child. The older child that was the victim now becomes a pedophile too. If anyone has anything to add or can explain this better, please do!

 

[cappuccina]

....in the majority of stranger abduction cases, the child is murdered within a few hours of the perpetrator kidnapping them. These are vaery dangerous individuals who are preying upon children for their instant gratification, as it were...Except in a very few cases, these offenders are not interested in keeping these kids alive for any reason...

Also, the "Occam's Razor" approach to solving crimes has been shown time and time again to be the most logical, to make the most sense. Thats is, the most simple and logical explanaiton for a crime is usually pretty close to the truth. In the Johnny Gosch case, it is most likely that a pedophile kidnapped, assaulted and murdered Johnny, probably within the first few hours of his disappearance. Whether this individual was stalking Johnny, or kids in this neighborhood, or took the first kid he saw, is unknown...

Again, I completely understand why a mother, devastated by her son's disappearacne and probable murder would still wish him to be alive. However, it is pretty clear that Noreen Gosch's "encounters" with her son and/or his kidnappers/assaulters is a way for her to be able to go on every day... The other approach that parents of murdered children take is more like that of Patty Wetterling or Marc Klass, or John Walsh, which is to, after a period of insulating themselves, to face the horror of what has happened head on, and to channel their energy into helping others, children, and so on. While Noreen has tried to help others, I feel that her efforts are somewhat misguided, as she is promoting a scenario of what happened to her son that is highly unlikely and improbable, and is, in essence venting her frustrations and grief about her situation on law enforcement. While some of this is founded, as this case has yet to be solved, I don't really blame LE for not investigating the hypothetical claims she continuously presents to them.


For an explanation of "Occam's Razor", see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

 

[inquiringmindz]

Yes, that is the big unknown question. Exactly who was involved? Why was Johnny chosen to be kidnapped? Is he still alive? I think those are the questions everyone wants answered. Unfortunately, we don't know those answers so we are left to speculate. I can only form my opinions from what I have studied about this case.

I don't think this case has been logical or simple in any form since the beginning. LE did not respond properly from the beginning, or what we would deem as proper by todays standards. I know when Johnny was kidnapped LE most likely were not sure what they needed to do. Kidnapping was not a routine problem like it is now. LE did not investigate or bring in any higher governmental offices within the first crucial stages of this investigation. Why was this handled differently for Eugene Martin? Could it be because of all the commotion that Noreen caused? I would like to see the files from this investigation as it would either prompt new questions or put old ones to rest.

I believe this case is one of the exceptions to the rules of simplicity. No matter how many layers you shave off a simple explanation is not visible. I don't believe that Noreen had anything to do with JG's disappearance. I don't know how I feel yet about John, her husband. I don't believe that Noreen has fabricated all of these details. If I was going to concoct a story of where my child was, I would at least make it a pleasant one to ease my pain. I don't think things can be as simple as what we would like them to be in this case. Why did NE State Legislator John DeCamp and NE Special Investigator Gary Caradori believe this information as well if there wasn't some truth to it? What was it that Caradori had discovered before his plane crashed?

John Walsh fought and he fought hard to find details about Adams disappearance. From his pain and suffering he produced a positive reaction. Noreen has also channeled her pain into positive actions producing the Johnny Gosch bill and pushed for the creation of NCMEC. http://www.johnnygosch.com/aboutNoreen.htm One thing John did have that Noreen does not is remains. Adams remains were found and identified. Noreen has fought hard and remains fighting for Johnny. No remains have been found for Johnny. I guess what I'm trying to say is that Noreen still has hope were the Walshes had certainty. I don't know what I would do if I were in this situation - hopefully and by the grace of God, I will never be. I don't know if it would be easier to believe my missing child was dead and move on or hold out hope that one day we will be reunited. My heart says to gravitate towards hope... Either way, it isn't an easy or pleasant path for ones life to take. A don't want to walk a mile in the shoes of anyone with a missing loved one.