Lion Air Flight JT610 plane crashes in Indonesia, 29 Oct 2018 *lawyer Tom Girardi charged in 2023 with defrauding victims*

[JudgeJudi]

I heard an interesting conversation on the radio last weekend with an Australian pilot who is currently flying one of these new planes.

He wasn’t apportioning any blame for this plane going down but did say, “budget airline, budget maintenance and budget training” cause accidents.

Referring to this particular crash and the suspected cause being the incorrect airspeed shown on the captain’s instrument, he said what should have happened when the plane started going up and down was to hand over control to the first officer. This is what the pilot did on a flight from Bali to Jakarta which landed safely after experiencing a similar problem .

The pilot on the radio speculated that the pilot on the crashed plane may have panicked and not handed over control of the aircraft.

 

[gregjrichards]

Doomed Lion Air jet had FOUR flights affected by faulty airspeed indicator thought to have caused crash into the sea off of Indonesia, black box reveals

Lion Air crash: Distraught relatives of victims confront airline owner | Daily Mail Online

 

[JudgeJudi]

The flight data recorder showed Flight 610 had performed 19 flights -- including its final flight.

Six black box experts from four different countries are now analyzing the flight data recorder to piece together the last moments of the 737 before it crashed.

Lion Air crash: Air speed indicator was malfunctioning for last four flights - CNN

Only 16 flights and 4 of those flights had the same problem!!! The families have every right to be angry and demanding answers.

 

[Hatfield]

I am not a pilot, but I play one on TV (well not really, I just like airplanes).

That aside, for a plane to glide in, it must still be truly flying though the air. This means that the engine power, rate of climb, air speed etc must still be allowing the wings to give the plane lift. If these things are not happening, then the plane is not truly flying. Rather it is falling from the sky, or worse- tumbling though the sky.

Though it is possible to recover from a "stall" (an inability to truly fly) by combining rate of descent / ascent, wing angle, power ratio etc, and then glide in, it needs to be done very quickly. Stalled planes can rapdily hit 'the point of no return' from which a recovery from a stall is aerodynamically not possible no matter how skilled the pilots are. In this case, the plane can be doomed long before it hit the water / ground.

Then factor in that passenger planes are not fighter planes. Military planes have a lot of advantages in avoiding stalls and recovering from them: Massive amounts of thrust to weight ratio, designed for a lot of extreme manuvers- thus harder to stall, maybe excess wing lift capacity in regards to weight etc. .

Thanks.
You are so right that apparantly this plane was falling out of the sky rather than flying. If it entered the water at the steep angle they said in that one article then it really was falling rather than flying or gliding.

How horrific for the passengers as it sounded like it basically nose dived toward the water.

 

[Scorpio1]

<modsnip - referencing removed posts> So what is all your opinions on the crash. The only thing i can come up with is dodgy speed probes as all the other electronics to what we know we're working fine , just my opinion,

 

[Hatfield]

This is JMO but I think some large clues can be found from these points on the previous flight where they had issues but overcame the issues.

"Passengers noticed an 'unusual' rumbling coming from the engine and a 'roller coaster'-like flight, which combined with the heat caused some people to become ill.

The pilot made a radio alert to turn back to Bali just minutes into the flight, however was able to overcome the problem and landed safely in Jakarta."

"shows the jet's airspeed indicator was faulty when it crashed and during three other flights,"

I think the "unusual rumbling" of the engine may be tied to the faulty speed indicator and why the passengers said it was like a roller coaster.

Here is what I am thinking may have been happening. If the plane was giving itself faulty speed readings then the engine may have been automatically compensating and going either much faster or much slower than it should have been.

For example. Lets say the speed reading went to 0 and the engine would ramp up and go super fast to try to get its speed up. Then at some point the speed reading catches up and engine slows its RPMs down to normal. Then all of a sudden speed reading goes to 0 again and engine speeds itself up again. Causing a roller coaster effect as the plane itself is constantly going upwards and downwards as the engine RPMs goes ballistic and then back to normal.

The previous day pilot must have manually taken control and relied on his own interpretation to fly the plane which is how they may have realized to keep the plane out of autopilot mode and fly the plane manually. I suspect the pilot just manually flew the plane and didnt rely on autopilot or automatic control.

Or maybe the speed sensor just began to work all the time for them after their initial problems with it.

In the doomed flight the pilots probably did not disengage something to take manual control or maybe they did too late and engine totally stalled or something.

In any event I suspect the engine RPM is tied somehow to the speed reading of the aircraft maybe when in autopilot mode. If the speed reading is bad then autopilot mode should not be used because it would be unreliable.

Anyhow just some guesses as to what could explain what some of the witnesses said on the previous flight.

The unusual rumbling is very concerning too as there may have been some sort of engine issue along with the speed sensor readings. Hope they determine the exact cause and prevent future issues with this model of plane.

Lion Air crash: Distraught relatives of victims confront airline owner | Daily Mail Online

 

[SausagePizza]

IMO: The aircraft was not fit for flight. The aircraft mechanics did not troubleshoot the previously reported problem correctly. The pilots were not able to override or recover from the fall from the sky, resulting in the tragedy. There will be a more detailed explanation in the future when more info is gathered. We should know more soon.

 

[gregjrichards]

IMO: The aircraft was not fit for flight. The aircraft mechanics did not troubleshoot the previously reported problem correctly. The pilots were not able to override or recover from the fall from the sky, resulting in the tragedy. There will be a more detailed explanation in the future when more info is gathered. We should know more soon.

I agree with you entirely. The flight maintenance team and airline have been negligent here. The plane should have taken out of service and looked at it intensively with test flights to make sure it was fixed before it re-entered service.

I hope the airline is forced to take airplane safety seriously and is forced to pay the victims families the maximum compensation.

 

[Isabelle]

Unable to link on my ipad, news today: Boeing release: Boeing 737 Max may abruptly dive due to system malfunction. They are going to make sure pilots know how to handle this situation (or some garbage like that). I am never going to fly a Boeing 737 Max and have alerted my family.

 

[SausagePizza]

Boeing Statement on Operations Manual Bulletin

Boeing is providing support and technical assistance to the Indonesian National Transportation Safety Committee and other government authorities responsible for the investigation into Lion Air flight 610.

The Indonesian National Transportation Safety Committee has indicated that Lion Air flight 610 experienced erroneous input from one of its AOA (Angle of Attack) sensors.

Whenever appropriate, Boeing, as part of its usual processes, issues bulletins or makes recommendations regarding the operation of its aircraft.

On November 6, 2018, Boeing issued an Operations Manual Bulletin (OMB) directing operators to existing flight crew procedures to address circumstances where there is erroneous input from an AOA sensor.

The investigation into Lion Air flight 610 is ongoing and Boeing continues to cooperate fully and provide technical assistance at the request and under the direction of government authorities investigating the accident.

Boeing Statement Issued October 29, 2018

The Boeing Company is deeply saddened by the loss of Lion Air Flight JT 610. We extend our heartfelt sympathies to the families and loved ones of those on board.

Boeing is providing technical assistance at the request and under the direction of government authorities investigating the accident. In accordance with international protocol, all inquiries about this accident investigation must be directed to the investigating authority in charge, the National Transportation Safety Committee of Indonesia.

Boeing Statement on Operations Manual Bulletin

 

[gregjrichards]

Boeing Statement on Operations Manual Bulletin

Boeing is providing support and technical assistance to the Indonesian National Transportation Safety Committee and other government authorities responsible for the investigation into Lion Air flight 610.

The Indonesian National Transportation Safety Committee has indicated that Lion Air flight 610 experienced erroneous input from one of its AOA (Angle of Attack) sensors.

Whenever appropriate, Boeing, as part of its usual processes, issues bulletins or makes recommendations regarding the operation of its aircraft.

On November 6, 2018, Boeing issued an Operations Manual Bulletin (OMB) directing operators to existing flight crew procedures to address circumstances where there is erroneous input from an AOA sensor.

The investigation into Lion Air flight 610 is ongoing and Boeing continues to cooperate fully and provide technical assistance at the request and under the direction of government authorities investigating the accident.

Boeing Statement Issued October 29, 2018

The Boeing Company is deeply saddened by the loss of Lion Air Flight JT 610. We extend our heartfelt sympathies to the families and loved ones of those on board.

Boeing is providing technical assistance at the request and under the direction of government authorities investigating the accident. In accordance with international protocol, all inquiries about this accident investigation must be directed to the investigating authority in charge, the National Transportation Safety Committee of Indonesia.

Boeing Statement on Operations Manual Bulletin

I don’t pretend to know much about the mechanics of aircraft but ideally the false input should not be happening at all. Providing protocol for flight crew to follow when it happens does not seem a satisfactory solution to me. The flight crew could be so overwhelmed by the event that they do not have the ability to save the plane in time. Personally I would prefer flying an Airbus now.

 

[Hatfield]

I don’t pretend to know much about the mechanics of aircraft but ideally the false input should not be happening at all. Providing protocol for flight crew to follow when it happens does not seem a satisfactory solution to me. The flight crew could be so overwhelmed by the event that they do not have the ability to save the plane in time. Personally I would prefer flying an Airbus now.

JMO
I agree.

I can understand them wanting to direct to proper procedures when something goes wrong but the problem as it is described seems that both the plane itself and the pilots may not have any idea that there is erroneous input from one of its AOA (Angle of Attack) sensors.

You cant know that information is wrong with that when other things begin happening that seem unrelated to that. Its not like a big warning light comes on and says "Warning you have bad input data coming from one of your AOA sensors".

 

[Hatfield]

Unable to link on my ipad, news today: Boeing release: Boeing 737 Max may abruptly dive due to system malfunction. They are going to make sure pilots know how to handle this situation (or some garbage like that). I am never going to fly a Boeing 737 Max and have alerted my family.

JMO
Link is below. OMG. This is ridiculous. All flights with that aircraft need to be grounded until this is fixed.

WTH? I cannot believe they are not grounding all flights with that aircraft.

"Boeing is preparing to alert airlines that errors in its newest aircraft series can make the plane “abruptly dive,” Bloomberg revealed."

Boeing’s new 737 MAX may ‘abruptly dive’ due to errors – media

 

[Hatfield]

JMO
I am shocked at the recent news. I sure dont want to be on any flight that takes an abrupt dive.

Its no wonder the previous flight people were throwing up and puking. It kept going down and back up like a roller coaster.

Sorry. I refuse to fly this plane until its fixed. Shouldn't the FAA require a grounding of these planes until its fixed permanently?

This sounds like a very serious issue.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

No. No abrupt diving while I'm on a plane, thanks. I'm a sun-seeking holidaymaker not a thrill-seeking risk taker!

 

[gregjrichards]

You would think today’s news would affect Boeing negatively but its share price is up nearly 10%. I wonder if any airlines will be cancelling their orders for the plane and ordering an Airbus instead.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

List of airlines which use the 737 Max including American Airlines, Air Canada & Southwest to name a few who have bought several. Interesting to see there were thousands of orders, but so far only a couple of hundred in operation. I imagine a lot of those pending orders might now get cancelled.

List of Boeing 737 MAX orders and deliveries - Wikipedia

 

[Justice101]

Unable to link on my ipad, news today: Boeing release: Boeing 737 Max may abruptly dive due to system malfunction. They are going to make sure pilots know how to handle this situation (or some garbage like that). I am never going to fly a Boeing 737 Max and have alerted my family.

All planes have occasional problems... that's why they do maintenance on them.. even ones that are only 5 months old.

I'd wait for the final report before changing anything. Who's to say you aren't just jumping on a different plane that has a history of worse problems.

 

[Justice101]

You would think today’s news would affect Boeing negatively but its share price is up nearly 10%. I wonder if any airlines will be cancelling their orders for the plane and ordering an Airbus instead.

I think people in the know realize that Boeing has 10 years worth of back orders in hand for multiple planes... And it also looks like Lion will be held responsible for this... not Boeing. Unless it is a crazy software problem.

 

[Justice101]

JMO
I am shocked at the recent news. I sure dont want to be on any flight that takes an abrupt dive.

Its no wonder the previous flight people were throwing up and puking. It kept going down and back up like a roller coaster.

Sorry. I refuse to fly this plane until its fixed. Shouldn't the FAA require a grounding of these planes until its fixed permanently?

This sounds like a very serious issue.

Not until they figure a cause.