Luka Magotta AKA Eric Newman Trial, Week beginning Oct 27, 2014 - Trial Thread #3

[Kamille]

I kind of do believe he was molested by at least one of his step parents. Unfortunately, that sort of thing is way too common to completely dismiss. Was it BOTH? I don't know. His experience with one could have "inspired" him to make up a story about the other. Or, perhaps he BELIEVES the abuse happened even if it didn't.
It is really hard to say with this guy. I just think that these particular claims are amongst the few that may be based on truth (to some extent).

Well except how rare it likely is for this to happen to a boy. How old did he claim to be when these assaults supposedly took place? He is suggesting that a man who is obviously interested in women sexually abused him and a woman did too although it's also been referred to as an affair in that instance. And that women is also a schizophrenic.

I agree with Fairy on this one. It does seem far fetched. Although I don't doubt he seduced his mentally ill step mother if they did have an affair. Or a one time sexual encounter. Didn't his father confirm that? Is he still with this woman? Then again we're asking yet another mentally ill person for confirmation. It's just all so frustrating. Who knows the truth and is willing to tell it? I bet the sister does and she's not talking.

MOO

 

[Rayemonde]

Really? "I don't remember doing it and I hope it was not me?" (who posted the trailer and all the comments hyping the movie)seriously? He's a piece of work all right. :notgood:

He's a TERRIBLE liar!! I do think he is mentally ill, because if he was just manipulative and calculating he could easily have come up with a decent story to explain the trailer etc. That's why I don't think he planned a NCR defence in advance. I do actually think he may have been psychotic at the time of the murder, but his delusions were just that he was clever enough to get away with murder, not that he was being persecuted or anything like that. Remember that being psychotic does NOT necessarily mean that a person is NCR. According to his psychiatrists, LM is still hearing voices and is listening to music etc to help drown them out. That means that he is still psychotic - look up the definition of psychotic; it just means someone is having hallucinations or delusions. Yet he's fit to stand trial. Even when LM is psychotic he knows the difference between right and wrong.

 

[Rayemonde]

Can anyone think of any other murders where the PRIMARY motive was apparently to seek attention/ notoriety? I can't think of any... Sure plenty of killers relish their notoriety, taunting the police or exaggerating the number of victims; but that usually seems to be a secondary motive, with sadism as the primary motive.

We haven't heard any suggestion so far that LM is sadistic or psychopathic. I do hope the Crown brings it up. It would make a lot of sense, given the kitten videos. Did he enjoy mutilating JL's body? It certainly didn't seem to bother or disturb him, but did he actively enjoy it or was he just doing it so he could make the most shocking video possible?

I don't know... This is such a strange crime!

 

[Fairy]

Well except how rare it likely is for this to happen to a boy. How old did he claim to be when these assaults supposedly took place? He is suggesting that a man who is obviously interested in women sexually abused him and a woman did too although it's also been referred to as an affair in that instance. And that women is also a schizophrenic.

I agree with Fairy on this one. It does seem far fetched. Although I don't doubt he seduced his mentally ill step mother if they did have an affair. Or a one time sexual encounter. Didn't his father confirm that? Is he still with this woman? Then again we're asking yet another mentally ill person for confirmation. It's just all so frustrating. Who knows the truth and is willing to tell it? I bet the sister does and she's not talking.

MOO

Unfortunately, some "men" will target single mothers purely to get to their children, male or female (Ian Watkins immediately jumps to mind). I just doubt anything LM says.

What his father said on the matter: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...se_in_luka_magnotta_trial_starting_today.html

The man also testified that his ex-wife entered into a relationship with a Toronto man, Leo Belanger, who was abusive toward his son: “He called him a ******, he beat him up and he treated him terribly,” he said.

No mention of the sexual side of the abuse. It would be helpful if someone from within the household could confirm the physical abuse, as the father is probably just repeating what LM has told him. It may be the case that his mother was right to throw him out, if he was making unfounded allegations about her partner.

From http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/magnotta-thought-lin-jun-was-an-agent-for-government

He told Allard his stepfather was abusive and sexually assaulted him when he was about 13.

What LM's father said regarding the affair with his partner: http://globalnews.ca/news/1646435/first-witness-for-defence-in-magnotta-trial-is-father/

He said that he heard about an alleged affair in a letter sent to him from someone named “Diana.” He confronted his son and his wife about the letter’s contents; they denied it and he believed them.

I'm guessing LM sent that letter.

 

[BorgQueen]

Unfortunately, some "men" will target single mothers purely to get to their children, male or female (Ian Watkins immediately jumps to mind). I just doubt anything LM says.

What his father said on the matter: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...se_in_luka_magnotta_trial_starting_today.html



No mention of the sexual side of the abuse. It would be helpful if someone from within the household could confirm the physical abuse, as the father is probably just repeating what LM has told him. It may be the case that his mother was right to throw him out, if he was making unfounded allegations about her partner.

From http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/magnotta-thought-lin-jun-was-an-agent-for-government



What LM's father said regarding the affair with his partner: http://globalnews.ca/news/1646435/first-witness-for-defence-in-magnotta-trial-is-father/



I'm guessing LM sent that letter.

BBM: that is why I think it is possible that sexual abuse did happen. With Magnotta, who knows, though. It could be a lie, or it could be a delusion (he believes it even if it isn't true). But it isn't impossible, or even unlikely (unfortunately). And although we hear of men being pedophiles more often than women, women can be too. Of course, anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt, but the sexual abuse as a child "story" is one of a few that seem possible. I think "possible" is the key word...


As for the letter written to Magnotta's father, I agree that Magnotta himself sent that letter. Pretty much everything he does is motivated by his desire for attention, positive or negative. Sounds like that got his father's attention.

 

[BorgQueen]

. . . I am glad that the phonecall question has been answered. It was his sister. I get the impression that she is both reluctant to help her brother, but also reluctant to help the crown. Clearly conflicted. I understand that.
Now, I am wondering what is going on with his brother? Was he contacted? Did I miss something? Everything seems so disjointed. I wish I had all the documents that the jury (and the media! they have MORE INFORMATION than the jury!!) has. Between tweets and media 'updates'... we seem to be missing a bunch of stuff.
My point goes back to the alleged abuse of Magnotta, formerly young Eric Newman. If HE was abused, chances are one, or both, of his siblings were also abused to some extent. We have Magnotta's word, but that doesn't mean much.
This alleged abuse could go a long way when it comes to the Luka that Eric became. And it really does seem like Eric and Luka ARE two different people. Something happened, no doubt. I still do not believe this psychosis theory, though. It isn't that he didn't know. He simply didn't CARE. But all of this alleged abuse -- sexual, physical, and psychological -- it IS important to sort out. When and why did this 'switch' happen. Nobody is BORN evil. And mental illness doesn't equal evil (darn stigma!).
More information about Eric/Luka I would like to know is his treatment toward animals. This is more important than it seems at face value. How was ERIC with animals? We know what LUKA was like with animals. . .

*sigh* more questions than answers... so many gaps. And with the ridiculous amount of legal arguments hors jury, it is quite obvious that a lot of information is being left out. THAT should be interesting, should the reporters present release it after the trial (if they're allowed... not sure if a publication ban could be extended?)

 

[BorgQueen]

He's a TERRIBLE liar!! I do think he is mentally ill, because if he was just manipulative and calculating he could easily have come up with a decent story to explain the trailer etc. That's why I don't think he planned a NCR defence in advance. I do actually think he may have been psychotic at the time of the murder, but his delusions were just that he was clever enough to get away with murder, not that he was being persecuted or anything like that. Remember that being psychotic does NOT necessarily mean that a person is NCR. According to his psychiatrists, LM is still hearing voices and is listening to music etc to help drown them out. That means that he is still psychotic - look up the definition of psychotic; it just means someone is having hallucinations or delusions. Yet he's fit to stand trial. Even when LM is psychotic he knows the difference between right and wrong.

I agree, IMO, that he is mentally ill. I also believe, IMO, that he has a personality disorder. That just makes things much more difficult. Magnotta really is the stuff that people interested in psychiatric research is made of. I kind of get the impression that this is why Watts took this case. It is unique. This witness seems to be primarily interested in research and theory? That is all good, but it is also the reason I abandoned my "goal" of psychiatry. In order to do a truly good job, one would have to work with people for a number of years. I wasn't interested in this, so I decided that the field was better off without me. But I am STILL interested.

ANYWAY (sorry... very little sleep in the past 48 hours, plus a slight amount of alcohol, I may be rambling a bit!). . . the gaps in his story(stories), actual events, and his life-timeline since the name change do not add up. But what is clear to me (IMO) is that he DID know right from wrong. He DID know what he was doing. He just didn't care. IMO, the 'gaps' could explain WHY he did not care. What happened to make him the way he is. One CAN be mentally ill, but absolutely in control and absolutely intelligent and organised enough to appreciate EVERYTHING.

 

[claudicici]

Can anyone think of any other murders where the PRIMARY motive was apparently to seek attention/ notoriety? I can't think of any... Sure plenty of killers relish their notoriety, taunting the police or exaggerating the number of victims; but that usually seems to be a secondary motive, with sadism as the primary motive.

We haven't heard any suggestion so far that LM is sadistic or psychopathic. I do hope the Crown brings it up. It would make a lot of sense, given the kitten videos. Did he enjoy mutilating JL's body? It certainly didn't seem to bother or disturb him, but did he actively enjoy it or was he just doing it so he could make the most shocking video possible?

I don't know... This is such a strange crime!

IMO he definitely did not "enjoy" doing it,IMO it was definitely done for shock value ,not that he had an urge to kill only an urge for fame and notoriety.....

 

[BorgQueen]

IMO he definitely did not "enjoy" doing it,IMO it was definitely done for shock value ,not that he had an urge to kill only an urge for fame and notoriety.....

BBM: YES. This. EXACTLY THIS.
He was after fame. He never became a popular model. Celebrity. Even *advertiser censored* star. But every time he did something "bad", he got attention. It escalated. Attention is attention. This indicates a personality disorder. They tend to overlap, which makes personality disorders difficult to diagnose... but I am positive (in my unprofessional opinion) THAT is what he has (along with all sorts of other issues). The ULTIMATE in attention backfired in a spectacular way... but he is notorious now. But... it ends after this trial (unless he is found NCR... then he can get back at it).

 

[DaveNP]

I think he DID enjoy it,in the sense that he was on way to achieving his goal,the amount of sick twisted stuff he's read/posted filled his head with for years,the gore sites etc',,,,,,,,,,he gets some sort of satisfaction from it obviously!

 

[DaveNP]

the letter his dad received from Diana........hasn't Maggotta mentioned a witch called Diane or Diana that's watching him,still??

 

[Dane]

IMO LM fits the bill on Histrionic Personality Disorder down to a tee. Surely he has other serious issues, but he seems to finally have arrived at the place he most wanted all along.
Famous, Notorious Killer. WORLD famous.

Had he not been so clumsy, ie. overly confident of his own genius, he would have carried on killing. He has himself talked/written about serial killers again and again, idolized them, studied them, and been jealous of THEIR lasting notoriety. Nothing is too deviant or gruesome to justify his goal... IMO he has known exactly what he was doing from day one, always playing the part, always preparing for his "close-up with Mr. DeVille".

I do not believe for one second that what he has done has been for anything else than shock effect. Fame. Notoriety.
Kittens? Serial killers often start off with small animals. LM of course knew that, so he copied it.
"Sexual acts" with either animals or poor JL??? Serial killers are often sexually motivated. LM also knew that, so naturally he copied that as well.

The more shocking and enraging the outcome, the better!

But oooops! Online sleuthing communities were on to him! Better be fast and keep up his insanity background story!

He was never, ever psychotic, IMHO. The medication he has received over the years also flattens expression, makes you "zombie-like". He will have had a slew of them available (since IMO he didn't actually TAKE any, regularly) and have taken a good dose before skyping, giving the UK interview... etc. Adding to the mystery of his invented persona, and backing up his story of mental disease.

The only thing I'll give him, is that he has worked very, very hard on this whole storyline. Very hard. It is the performance of his life, and to some extent, cunningly enough executed to (supposedly) even fool the professional psychiatrists.

Except... it is merely a performance. And we, the astute audience, can see through that.

MOO of course

 

[Rayemonde]

the letter his dad received from Diana........hasn't Maggotta mentioned a witch called Diane or Diana that's watching him,still??

No, I thought that too but I went back and checked and Diane supposedly wrote the letter to his dad, whereas the witch he thinks watches him is called Debbie. I googled "Debbie witch", wondering if she was another character from a movie but I couldn't find anything.

 

[Rayemonde]

He was never, ever psychotic, IMHO. The medication he has received over the years also flattens expression, makes you "zombie-like". He will have had a slew of them available (since IMO he didn't actually TAKE any, regularly) and have taken a good dose before skyping, giving the UK interview... etc. Adding to the mystery of his invented persona, and backing up his story of mental disease.

The only thing I'll give him, is that he has worked very, very hard on this whole storyline. Very hard. It is the performance of his life, and to some extent, cunningly enough executed to (supposedly) even fool the professional psychiatrists.

Except... it is merely a performance. And we, the astute audience, can see through that.

I don't agree that he's been faking schizophrenia for his whole life... Sure he's probably exaggerated the symptoms at times, and faked episodes when it suited him but I think he does have a serious mental illness nonetheless, and I think he's been trying to keep it a secret all these years. I don't think he planned a NCR defence, or he would have done a better job of it. Why did he visit a psychiatrist a month before the murder and deny having any serious mental illness, and say that he had heard voices in the past but they were down to illegal drug use? That's the opposite of what I'd expect him to do if he was planning a NCR defence. He would have had a very good case for a NCR defence (due to his long history of mental illness) if he'd just put a bit of thought into coming up with a decent story, but he didn't. He promoted the video beforehand, and called himself a "psychopath" and "necrophiliac" - either label would seriously harm any attempt at a NCR defence. He never hinted that he was hearing voices or having any psychotic symptoms at all.

 

[Rayemonde]

I think that problem we're having is that we like life to be black and white - victims vs villians. Life isn't like that. We want Magnotta to either be an evil, manipulative, calculating figure who has lied about any abuse or mental illness in his past, or we want him to be someone who had a terrible life and a cruel mental illness who was not really responsible for the evil things he did.

I've been reading up on schizophrenia and personality disorders, and LM did have a high (at least 1 in 10) chance of developing schizophrenia simply because his father had it. Most people with histrionic or borderline personality disorders do seem to have had abusive childhoods, and it's thought that this can cause the disorders in genetically vulnerable people. Most serial killers do seem to have suffered horrendous abuse in childhood too. In his line of sex work, it it not at all unlikely that LM was raped or abused at times. Yes he is a liar, but this doesn't mean everything he says happened to him is a lie. His childhood experiences are probably what triggered his pathological need for attention.

And I don't think he's enjoying his notoriety now. I think he's just as miserable as ever.

 

[BorgQueen]

The problem with personality disorders is that so many of them 'overlap'. My friend who has been diagnosed as BPD.. is 'classic' in so many ways... but... she is NOT a liar. yes, she exaggerates (but it is all very real to her... ) and yes, she craves attention... BUT... the same can be said for so many other personality disorders.
Magnotta is beyond mental illness. He has SOME personality disorder to top that off. Perhaps borderline. Perhaps histrionic. Perhaps something else. But... I am positive something else other than schizophrenia is wrong.
IMO, the key to figuring him out will take many, many years of intense therapy, and verifying what is real, what is a lie, and what is an exaggerated story based on reality. And that is tricky (unlike what Allard would have us think... to her... PSYCHOSIS ANSWERS ALL!!!)

 

[BorgQueen]

I think that problem we're having is that we like life to be black and white - victims vs villians. Life isn't like that. We want Magnotta to either be an evil, manipulative, calculating figure who has lied about any abuse or mental illness in his past, or we want him to be someone who had a terrible life and a cruel mental illness who was not really responsible for the evil things he did.

I've been reading up on schizophrenia and personality disorders, and LM did have a high (at least 1 in 10) chance of developing schizophrenia simply because his father had it. Most people with histrionic or borderline personality disorders do seem to have had abusive childhoods, and it's thought that this can cause the disorders in genetically vulnerable people. Most serial killers do seem to have suffered horrendous abuse in childhood too. In his line of sex work, it it not at all unlikely that LM was raped or abused at times. Yes he is a liar, but this doesn't mean everything he says happened to him is a lie. His childhood experiences are probably what triggered his pathological need for attention.

And I don't think he's enjoying his notoriety now. I think he's just as miserable as ever.

I absolutely agree. This is more complicated than it seems at face value.

 

[Rayemonde]

Family interaction also plays an important role in a child's growth and development. "The quality of their attachments to parents and other members of the family is critical to how these children relate to and value other members of society." Wilson and Seaman (1990) conducted a study on incarcerated serial killers and what they felt was the most influential factor that contributed to their homicidal activity. . .
nearly half of the serial killers had experienced some type of physical and sexual abuse and even more had experienced emotional neglect. When a parent has a drug or alcohol problem, the attention in the household is on the parents rather than the child. This neglect of the child leads to the lowering of their self-esteem and helps develop a fantasy world in which they are in control. Hickey's Trauma Control Model supports how the neglect from parents can facilitate deviant behavior especially if the child sees substance abuse in action.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer#General

I think LM certainly lived in his own fantasy world a lot of the time.

Judd points to several studies by Johnson, including one published in 1999 in the Archives of General Psychiatry (Vol. 56, No. 7) that followed 639 New York state families and their children for nearly two decades. Children with documented instances of childhood abuse or neglect were more than four times as likely to develop a PD in early adulthood, according to the research.
Another study, led by Johnson and published in 2001 in Comprehensive Psychiatry (Vol. 42, No. 1), came to a similar conclusion when examining maternal verbal abuse in the same New York group of families, involving this time 793 mothers and their children. The prospective study asked mothers a variety of questions, including whether they had screamed at their children in the previous month and whether they had told their child they didn't love them or would send them away. Offspring who experienced verbal abuse in childhood--compared with those who didn't--were more than three times as likely to be diagnosed as adults with borderline, narcissistic, obsessive-compulsive and paranoid PDs.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/mar04/awry.aspx

Note that these studies did NOT simply involve asking people with personality disorders about their childhood and then believing whatever they said.

 

[Rayemonde]

Now, I am wondering what is going on with his brother? Was he contacted? Did I miss something? Everything seems so disjointed. I wish I had all the documents that the jury (and the media! they have MORE INFORMATION than the jury!!) has. Between tweets and media 'updates'... we seem to be missing a bunch of stuff.
My point goes back to the alleged abuse of Magnotta, formerly young Eric Newman. If HE was abused, chances are one, or both, of his siblings were also abused to some extent. We have Magnotta's word, but that doesn't mean much.

I've read that his brother is called Conrad Shane Newman and is currently in prison for drug and gun offences. I can't find any official reports about this though... Can any sleuthers help me out?
Apparently LM's mother had two more children with her LM's stepfather, too.

ETA LM described his brother in his psychcentral post in 2011, which does seem to have a lot of truth in it:
"My brother is a complete failure in life and impregnates anyone he comes in contact with, is an alcohalic homeless bum who turned out exactly like his parents but stupider."
http://answers.psychcentral.com/Depression/i-hate-my-mother-and-i-dont-care-enough-to-change-it-/

ETA It would also be interesting to find out if LM's stepfather has any kind of criminal record.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

ABOUT SURVEILLANCE CAMERAS INSIDE MCDONALDS:

It seems they do NOT - BUT, there are cameras all around McDonalds. Here's an example:

http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/double-murder-in-ndg-1.477325

Also in Ontario, cameras in surrounding buildings saw a potential perp going into McDonalds.

---------------------------------------

ETA:

Wouldn't you think that LE had grabbed EVERY camera on buildings near that McDonalds? I'm having a "blank out" - did LM tell LE/psych that he and JL met at a McDonalds??