MA MA - Deborah Quimby, 13, Townsend, 3 May 1977
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Links:
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/274dfma.html
http://www.missingkids.com/missingk...aseNum=727916&orgPrefix=NCMC&searchLang=en_US
This is a fascinating case. Hopefully it may one day be resolved.
It is so similar to a number of other cases of missing children who were taken while riding their bicycles. There was a series of such disappearances in Connecticut in the early 1970's, and there were others around the country about the same time that Deborah went missing.
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/274dfma.html
http://www.missingkids.com/missingk...aseNum=727916&orgPrefix=NCMC&searchLang=en_US
This is a fascinating case. Hopefully it may one day be resolved.
It is so similar to a number of other cases of missing children who were taken while riding their bicycles. There was a series of such disappearances in Connecticut in the early 1970's, and there were others around the country about the same time that Deborah went missing.
Thanks to both of you for this info. (believe09 & christine2448),
believe, Can you please tell me where walker pond is? If I am going west on rt. 119 and turn right at the "V" right before spaulding school onto turnpike road..how far down that road is walker pond? Is it on the left where I see the cement something or other around it? (along with trucks)...across from the cows?
Also...and don't get anyone's hopes up I am just inquiring...do you know how much $$ is needed to finish the pond search? or at least jump start it?
I hope you don't mind me asking these questions...am I correct she was last seen right near spaulding school to the right or near that apartment complex going up turnpike road?
if so..from this point where did her grand parents live? Varnum road I think, but where is that from this disappearance point? Down turnpike road which quickly turns into the sticks?
As I said I drive 119 everyday coming west to east and I have scanned the road signs left and right with my eyes but see no other landmarks mentioned in any articles...oh wait..I have seem the state park..on the right "pearl" st. or somethign mentioned.
After receiving your answers I will scour the notes supplied by christine so as not to be a pain in the but.
God Bless!
believe, Can you please tell me where walker pond is? If I am going west on rt. 119 and turn right at the "V" right before spaulding school onto turnpike road..how far down that road is walker pond? Is it on the left where I see the cement something or other around it? (along with trucks)...across from the cows?
Also...and don't get anyone's hopes up I am just inquiring...do you know how much $$ is needed to finish the pond search? or at least jump start it?
I hope you don't mind me asking these questions...am I correct she was last seen right near spaulding school to the right or near that apartment complex going up turnpike road?
if so..from this point where did her grand parents live? Varnum road I think, but where is that from this disappearance point? Down turnpike road which quickly turns into the sticks?
As I said I drive 119 everyday coming west to east and I have scanned the road signs left and right with my eyes but see no other landmarks mentioned in any articles...oh wait..I have seem the state park..on the right "pearl" st. or somethign mentioned.
After receiving your answers I will scour the notes supplied by christine so as not to be a pain in the but.
God Bless!
Here are some cases which might be related to this case:
Debbie Spickler, 13, of Mystic, CT was visiting a relative in Vernon, CT when she disappeared from Henry Park on July 24, 1968.
Janice Pockett, 7, vanished in Tolland, CT on July 26, 1973.
Lisa White, 13, of Vernon, CT was last seen about the night of Nov. 1, 1974, along Route 83 in that town.
Susan Larosa abducted in 1975 from Vernon, CT found deceased a few years later south of I 84 in Vernon.
Stephanie Olisky, 15 East Windsor, CT 7/21/75 Found on Route 5 Critical Condition. Later dies. In East Windsor. Just two towns away from Vernon.
Angelo Puglisi, a Massachusetts child vanished in 1976
Maria Florence Anjiras Missing 12 Feb 1976 Norwalk, CT
Link
http://www.missingkids.com/missingki...archLang=en_US
Pattie Luce abducted and murdered from Vernon, CT (1977?) Found deceased in Marlborough.
Doreen Vincent, 12, disappeared June 15, 1988. Listed as an "endangered runaway,"
-----------------------
LINK to a related Websleuths thread:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5007
Debbie Spickler, 13, of Mystic, CT was visiting a relative in Vernon, CT when she disappeared from Henry Park on July 24, 1968.
Janice Pockett, 7, vanished in Tolland, CT on July 26, 1973.
Lisa White, 13, of Vernon, CT was last seen about the night of Nov. 1, 1974, along Route 83 in that town.
Susan Larosa abducted in 1975 from Vernon, CT found deceased a few years later south of I 84 in Vernon.
Stephanie Olisky, 15 East Windsor, CT 7/21/75 Found on Route 5 Critical Condition. Later dies. In East Windsor. Just two towns away from Vernon.
Angelo Puglisi, a Massachusetts child vanished in 1976
Maria Florence Anjiras Missing 12 Feb 1976 Norwalk, CT
Link
http://www.missingkids.com/missingki...archLang=en_US
Pattie Luce abducted and murdered from Vernon, CT (1977?) Found deceased in Marlborough.
Doreen Vincent, 12, disappeared June 15, 1988. Listed as an "endangered runaway,"
-----------------------
LINK to a related Websleuths thread:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5007
I have no professional experience on this. But I think the police have a lead that has gone nowheres. I read these articles but never see what the police have found anywheres, or what they have done to date. What has been searched & where etc. Maybe this info has disappeared with age. I am sure they have done a great job and put in lots of effort.
- no police info revealed.....makes me believe they have some but are at a stand still waiting & hoping something breaks.
- very much a back country road once someone gets by spaulding school...translation..only locals use this road...if it is a local 30 years has gone by.
- I wonder if the pond has been checked with sonar checking & mapping out the bottom for objects...a big unknown for me.
Still thinking...the current police chief was a rookie when this happened...when he retires a lot of info will go with him...ugh.
- no police info revealed.....makes me believe they have some but are at a stand still waiting & hoping something breaks.
- very much a back country road once someone gets by spaulding school...translation..only locals use this road...if it is a local 30 years has gone by.
- I wonder if the pond has been checked with sonar checking & mapping out the bottom for objects...a big unknown for me.
Still thinking...the current police chief was a rookie when this happened...when he retires a lot of info will go with him...ugh.
believe09
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Bar-Jonah, who was born David Brown in Worcester, Mass, was born 2/15/1957. That would make him 11 at the time of the first girl's disappearance...gotta be a stretch IMO since the body was never found, but he did supposedly choke a female classmate when he was 10?
meggilyweggily
Well-Known Member
People have a tendency to try to link every crime they can think of to a serial killer whenever a new one is discovered. I highly doubt Bar-Jonah had anything to do with Deborah's case. Unfortunately there are plenty of others, adults, who had it in them to murder an innocent teenage girl and dispose of her body where it could never be found.
Townsend was a country town 30 years ago, it didn't get the traffic it does now.
If she left the commons area riding her bike west on rt 119 for a short distance, then veered her bike to the right up past the school she quickly was off the main road and in the sticks very quickly. ( and I mean sticks!)
- She either was followed from the commons area.
- by a local...would be easy to do...no suspicion. I rule this out because she was accompanied by someone else on a bike for a short distance. Yes probably another juvenile who wasn't aware of his/her surrounding but someone else was present with her never the less.........I rule this out...or names/faces would have been provided to the police from the accompanying person or possibly another towns person would have seen this person.
- followed by a non local. I rule this out because a non local hanging around would be noticed by townspeople. This is rural new england..outsiders are frowned against.
I go back to all was well till she turned right and rode up past the school.
She could have made arrangements to meet someone, and had a prearranged meeting with someone and her plans were then to continue on to her grand parents( I read this was her parents theory/ a meeting w/someone else). Or she ran into someone else and foul play followed. I think either of the above is valid. By I don't believe it was a stranger she ran into on that road.
- if it was a stranger and they abducted her they would be taking a chance having her / transporting her in the car for any distance. Either being seen or the kid making noise. Also factor in the bike.
This is a slow winding road, speed limit now is prolly 35 mph and a stranger driving around might be noticed by the few occupants in the houses on this road.
But a local would know the road, cause no alarm if seen by others, and would possible know the woods. A local could possible coerce her into the car with no noise, etc. A local could do harm to her right there in the woods or pick her up transport her a short distance and do so. Then dispose of her in a place they know will never be found. Less visibility and suspicion for a local.
That's as far as I am...in my thinking....I am now contemplating did she run into harm on the road and was then disposed of in the pond...which I am leaning against because I would think this would take time..and the person would risk being seen there..or was she transported somewhere's else...harm done and then the person doubled back purposedly disposing of her in the pond..which means the body was tied down or something so it didn;t float. Then I wonder why would someone dispose of her body close to where she was last seen....so I'm slowly ruling this out.
I am settling on a generic...she was harmed near where she was last seen..and is somewhere's still in the area...within a fixed distance from the last known place she was seen (could be a few miles).
To the right off this road is all woods..not sure how much but I would say maybe a few miles in width & depth. It may also be a state park...which would mean no hunting hence no yearly traffic that could possibly flush out a body. But still by now I would think if the body was hastily disposed of it would have been found.
There is a cow farm right on this road. It's been there forever...cause you can tell the road goes around the feeding shed..not the feeding shed was built that close to the road. I got the willies driving by this. It is seriously like driving from the 21st century back into "deliverance" within 1/2 mile. My wife accompnaied me too and had the same feeling.
- I read the pond was drained well a couple of years ago.
- The thinking is the bottom of the pond is like quick sand and a heavy object would sink 6-10 feet below the surface. How much does a 13 yr. old girl weigh? Yes..the cadeveur dogs got reactions from the pond.
- The 2 anony letters..one post marked from worceter and the other manchester NH...could have been mailed in the same mail box and because or rural u.s. mail both routed to different centers.
- The letters were "typed" with hand written addressee (the police chief).
I wonder what does typed mean...does this mean using a "typewritter" or a "printer". Knowing this may help in aging the writer. Why would someone write and then go silent?...either an attention seeker..or possibly the person is dead.
Still thinking...sorry for my ramblings...I could go on but will stop for now.
If she left the commons area riding her bike west on rt 119 for a short distance, then veered her bike to the right up past the school she quickly was off the main road and in the sticks very quickly. ( and I mean sticks!)
- She either was followed from the commons area.
- by a local...would be easy to do...no suspicion. I rule this out because she was accompanied by someone else on a bike for a short distance. Yes probably another juvenile who wasn't aware of his/her surrounding but someone else was present with her never the less.........I rule this out...or names/faces would have been provided to the police from the accompanying person or possibly another towns person would have seen this person.
- followed by a non local. I rule this out because a non local hanging around would be noticed by townspeople. This is rural new england..outsiders are frowned against.
I go back to all was well till she turned right and rode up past the school.
She could have made arrangements to meet someone, and had a prearranged meeting with someone and her plans were then to continue on to her grand parents( I read this was her parents theory/ a meeting w/someone else). Or she ran into someone else and foul play followed. I think either of the above is valid. By I don't believe it was a stranger she ran into on that road.
- if it was a stranger and they abducted her they would be taking a chance having her / transporting her in the car for any distance. Either being seen or the kid making noise. Also factor in the bike.
This is a slow winding road, speed limit now is prolly 35 mph and a stranger driving around might be noticed by the few occupants in the houses on this road.
But a local would know the road, cause no alarm if seen by others, and would possible know the woods. A local could possible coerce her into the car with no noise, etc. A local could do harm to her right there in the woods or pick her up transport her a short distance and do so. Then dispose of her in a place they know will never be found. Less visibility and suspicion for a local.
That's as far as I am...in my thinking....I am now contemplating did she run into harm on the road and was then disposed of in the pond...which I am leaning against because I would think this would take time..and the person would risk being seen there..or was she transported somewhere's else...harm done and then the person doubled back purposedly disposing of her in the pond..which means the body was tied down or something so it didn;t float. Then I wonder why would someone dispose of her body close to where she was last seen....so I'm slowly ruling this out.
I am settling on a generic...she was harmed near where she was last seen..and is somewhere's still in the area...within a fixed distance from the last known place she was seen (could be a few miles).
To the right off this road is all woods..not sure how much but I would say maybe a few miles in width & depth. It may also be a state park...which would mean no hunting hence no yearly traffic that could possibly flush out a body. But still by now I would think if the body was hastily disposed of it would have been found.
There is a cow farm right on this road. It's been there forever...cause you can tell the road goes around the feeding shed..not the feeding shed was built that close to the road. I got the willies driving by this. It is seriously like driving from the 21st century back into "deliverance" within 1/2 mile. My wife accompnaied me too and had the same feeling.
- I read the pond was drained well a couple of years ago.
- The thinking is the bottom of the pond is like quick sand and a heavy object would sink 6-10 feet below the surface. How much does a 13 yr. old girl weigh? Yes..the cadeveur dogs got reactions from the pond.
- The 2 anony letters..one post marked from worceter and the other manchester NH...could have been mailed in the same mail box and because or rural u.s. mail both routed to different centers.
- The letters were "typed" with hand written addressee (the police chief).
I wonder what does typed mean...does this mean using a "typewritter" or a "printer". Knowing this may help in aging the writer. Why would someone write and then go silent?...either an attention seeker..or possibly the person is dead.
Still thinking...sorry for my ramblings...I could go on but will stop for now.
I agree with you that there is a tendency to at least look at other cases when a person is identified as being a serial killer, to consider whether or not he might have committed them. It does not make an investigation invalid to do so, unless there is a rush to judgement with blinders on.
The decision to try to make connections between a series of crimes and a specific criminal has to be made after considering a lot of different factors about the Serial Killer. One who travels around a lot, as opposed to one who lives and kills in a small area would be one to consider for a wide range of jurisdictions. Unfortunately, they are often the hardest to catch, because of their mobility and wide area.
Certainly there are - at any given time - a number of possible killers operating in the same vicinity. And sometimes they can have the same MO, choice of weapons, tools, vehicles, etc. But you have to remember that a serial killer is a pretty unique/rare individual, so while places like California and New York might have more of them in a given area, there just are not all that many of them in the more rural places like these little New England towns.
I grant that there are such things as pure coincidence, and investigators have to consider that in their work. But when you get a whole lot of very similar murders, the chances of it being just coincidence diminish quickly.
Here is an example of another case with similar elements. Note, however, that this one took place in Canada.
Michelle Lise Wedge
Missing since July 2, 1975 from Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada.
Classification: Endangered Missing
Vital Statistics
Wedge had been left in the care of her older siblings and was riding her bike in the neighborhood as dusk was approaching.
Her older brother who was watching her, had friends over and noone noticed that Wedge had disappeared until her sister got home around 9pm. and realized that Wedge wasn't in the yard playing.
Initial interviews with friends and neighbors determined that Wedge had last been seen at around 9:10pm., about 40 minutes after her brother recalled having heard her exiting the house to play outside.
Someone had seen her riding her Mustang-style bicycle north on Dominion Street, near the intersection with John Street, just a few houses away from her home. Another individual reported seeing the same thing at about the same time. Still another seemed to recall seeing a young girl getting into a car at that corner that night.
Her bicycle was found by her brother on the boulevard at the southwest corner of Dominion Street and John Street.
LINK:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62178
Michelle Lise Wedge
Missing since July 2, 1975 from Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada.
Classification: Endangered Missing
Vital Statistics
- Date Of Birth: December 1, 1967
- Age at Time of Disappearance: 7 years old
- Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 4'0"
- Distinguishing Characteristics: White female. Dark blonde, shoulder-length hair; brown eyes. Wedge has a fair complexion.
- Dentals: Good teeth.
- Clothing: At the time of her disappearance, Wedge was wearing shorts, stockings and size 3 sandals, all navy blue in color. She also wore a red and white checkered T-shirt.
Wedge had been left in the care of her older siblings and was riding her bike in the neighborhood as dusk was approaching.
Her older brother who was watching her, had friends over and noone noticed that Wedge had disappeared until her sister got home around 9pm. and realized that Wedge wasn't in the yard playing.
Initial interviews with friends and neighbors determined that Wedge had last been seen at around 9:10pm., about 40 minutes after her brother recalled having heard her exiting the house to play outside.
Someone had seen her riding her Mustang-style bicycle north on Dominion Street, near the intersection with John Street, just a few houses away from her home. Another individual reported seeing the same thing at about the same time. Still another seemed to recall seeing a young girl getting into a car at that corner that night.
Her bicycle was found by her brother on the boulevard at the southwest corner of Dominion Street and John Street.
LINK:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62178
believe09
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how do you control a child on a bike and what do you do with the bike later...Debby was not a tiny weak child-do you hit the bike with your vehicle and it disappears to prevent disclosure of that method? Do you coax the child into the vehicle with the bike, or do you go back and pick up the bike later?
coax the child and grab the bike at the same time....
example............"hello, I was asked to come find you, there has been accident involving your (brother, sister, dad, mom, grand parents or any relative) I'll take you to them,quick let's get going stepping out of the car, poping the trunk, let's put your bike in..."
This could be done by a local or non local.
I'm not familiar with any of the other local cases you references earlier today in a post..or maybe it was yesterday.
I do wonder in situations like this what statistics would say...would they indicate it was someone familiar with her or a stranger?
Thinking of many of the public child disappearances...on TV I lean towards over 50% the person was known to the victim. No statistical proof..just an observation.
example............"hello, I was asked to come find you, there has been accident involving your (brother, sister, dad, mom, grand parents or any relative) I'll take you to them,quick let's get going stepping out of the car, poping the trunk, let's put your bike in..."
This could be done by a local or non local.
I'm not familiar with any of the other local cases you references earlier today in a post..or maybe it was yesterday.
I do wonder in situations like this what statistics would say...would they indicate it was someone familiar with her or a stranger?
Thinking of many of the public child disappearances...on TV I lean towards over 50% the person was known to the victim. No statistical proof..just an observation.
believe09
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These are the other cases I am referring to....
Distance from Townsend Ma to Vernon Ct...........84 miles
"" "" to Mystic Ct...........113 miles
"" "" to Tolland Ct.........76
"" "" to East Windsor......89
"" "" to Boston ............approx 30 (thinking of Angelo Puglisi)
The distance between these towns is much less than the distance to Townsend (except for Boston). Granted these are not great distances, but why would this person all of a sudden come to Townsend a much greater distance out of the way when they have been staying the ct. area?
I don't see it. shrugs..
"" "" to Mystic Ct...........113 miles
"" "" to Tolland Ct.........76
"" "" to East Windsor......89
"" "" to Boston ............approx 30 (thinking of Angelo Puglisi)
The distance between these towns is much less than the distance to Townsend (except for Boston). Granted these are not great distances, but why would this person all of a sudden come to Townsend a much greater distance out of the way when they have been staying the ct. area?
I don't see it. shrugs..
believe09
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Well, I think it is all in how you look at it-Patti Luce was dropped in Marlborough, which I have taken to mean Marlborough, MA. Where are the ones who have not been found? Is it realistic that the person involved would have transported all of the bodies out of state...
meggilyweggily
Well-Known Member
Shawn Hornbeck, an 11-year-old boy, was forcibly abducted and his bicycle was not found; I don't know what happened to it. I think the "how to avoid getting kidnapped" brochures for kids advise them that if they're accosted by someone while riding their bike, they should hold onto the bike at all costs, as it's a lot harder to haul away a kid AND a bike at the same time than it is to just get the kid.
The ones who know the most on this are the police. I believe they must have some leads that have dried up, could be local and non local.
I would not increase the perimeter of this area / disappearance until I was 100 percent sure it wasn't a local........that's all I'm saying, because once you do the possibilities expand enormously.
Since I've been researching this for a few weeks, and am 30 years behind, I haven't read enough to drop the local theory.
I would not increase the perimeter of this area / disappearance until I was 100 percent sure it wasn't a local........that's all I'm saying, because once you do the possibilities expand enormously.
Since I've been researching this for a few weeks, and am 30 years behind, I haven't read enough to drop the local theory.