MA - Lindsay Clancy, Strangled 3 Children in Murder/Suicide Attempt, Duxbury, Jan 2023

PPD can be influenced by outside factors like you stated. But PPS is purely biological, per evidence based science. That said, we are always learning new things about the human body and human condition. PPD and PPS are relatively new on the radar (as is mental health in general) so there’s lots of room for new discoveries. After all, this is why a physician “practices” medicine . Hehe, sorry doc (can’t recall your screen name at the moment, on phone so can’t easily look), had to say it!

All kidding aside (and I really shouldn’t be kidding at all here), this is a tragic and heartbreaking event. I believe they were absolutely doing everything they could. But I am curious why she was left alone with the kids at all. Someone mentioned earlier how he (dad) had to sleep sometime, so what then? That’s an excellent point. So is it inpatient vs. at home with family? Obviously, if doing harm to her children was a known risk, someone somewhere somehow would’ve made sure she stayed inpatient. Yet I blame no one, not even her. She broke and did something that was completely out of control as far as we know. I pray for peace, healing and forgiveness for everyone whose lives this family has touched; most of all dad, immediate family and Lindsay.

Edited to add: one thought that keeps repeating itself in my mind is that I hope and pray these kids had no idea what was happening to them or each other. I hope their last thoughts weren’t of their mommy hurting them, and I hope they didn’t die watching their mommy hurt their siblings. It’s just so incredibly sad.

Does Massachusetts have anything like a CA 5150 or FL Baker Act where someone can be involuntarily placed on a psych hold if they are believed to be a danger to others or themselves?

Yes it is "practicing" medicine in many respects
;)

Even if someone is psychotic, it doesn't mean they're a danger to themselves or others. The father likely didn't realize how ill she was. Yes, MA has involuntary commitment, but you don't meet the criteria (in any state) just because you're psychotic. Many patients live with chronic psychosis and have never hurt a fly. We don't yet know the difference between their psychosis and the psychosis that cause some to harm others, including their children.
 
RSBM
Massachusetts receives a “F” for their involuntary commitment laws. This mother would not have been able to receive outpatient emergent treatment.

“Three states still have no law allowing civil commitment to occur on an outpatient basis (AOT) (Connecticut, Maryland and Massachusetts).”


I think it's very difficult for people to understand what this means unless they work in healthcare.

First, that report is incredibly biased. Second, MA has some of the strongest involuntary commitment laws and DOES allow for community guardianship (which means patients in the community are court-ordered to take their psychiatric meds if proven that without the meds, the patient is a danger to self or others). What they don't allow is for the court to force someone into OUTPATIENT treatment. The reasoning is if someone is a danger to self or others, then they should be INPATIENT instead out of outpatient. And if they're deemed not to need inpatient treatment so long as they take meds, then a community guardianship is pursued and if the judge agrees, then the patient is forced to take meds outpatient. I don't know how that is a failing on the part of MA.

Again, I think people freak out because they don't quite understand mental illness. We do not lock people away just because they're ill. And we should not EVER lock people away just because they're ill. There has to be a direct correlation between their illness and their behavior AND that behavior has to be proven to be dangerous either to the person themselves or the community. There are many patients who are psychotic and get along just fine, never having hurt anyone, never even considering hurting anyone.
 
Mass, however, does have civil commitment laws on an inpatient basis, which is what was needed here as she was already undergoing outpatient counseling.

While I was not involved in this case, I believe the above is wrong based on my knowledge of the system. You have absolutely no way of knowing that involuntary commitment was needed in this case. In hindsight, sure. But there are strict rules to involuntary commitment for a reason - it's so you can't be picked up by the cops and brought in to the hospital against your will, missing work and your family, for 7 days all because your vengeful neighbor said you're "crazy." These laws work this way for a reason. They're designed to insure that people who actually NEED help are committed and those who aren't sick aren't. You'd be amazed the type of very high-functioning people who could end up committed during a child custody dispute, for example, if these laws weren't around. Couples do horrible things to each other when kids are at stake. I've seen it more than once. I thank God for these laws, even if sometimes, some fall through the cracks.
 
I think it's very difficult for people to understand what this means unless they work in healthcare.

First, that report is incredibly biased. Second, MA has some of the strongest involuntary commitment laws and DOES allow for community guardianship (which means patients in the community are court-ordered to take their psychiatric meds if proven that without the meds, the patient is a danger to self or others). What they don't allow is for the court to force someone into OUTPATIENT treatment. The reasoning is if someone is a danger to self or others, then they should be INPATIENT instead out of outpatient. And if they're deemed not to need inpatient treatment so long as they take meds, then a community guardianship is pursued and if the judge agrees, then the patient is forced to take meds outpatient. I don't know how that is a failing on the part of MA.

Again, I think people freak out because they don't quite understand mental illness. We do not lock people away just because they're ill. And we should not EVER lock people away just because they're ill. There has to be a direct correlation between their illness and their behavior AND that behavior has to be proven to be dangerous either to the person themselves or the community. There are many patients who are psychotic and get along just fine, never having hurt anyone, never even considering hurting anyone.

Exactly. Which goes to so many of the issues with people who commit crimes attributed to mental illness. Everyone rails against the "system", when the real problem is that no one has a "crystal ball", to see when a person is going to tip and be a danger to others, until the act occurs.

The perpetrator here was apparently getting treatment, taking medication, spousal support, and she probably seemed "fine", until she wasn't....
 
Question for @BeginnerSleuther and @LaborDayRN (or others with clinical knowledge) regarding PPP, when a mom has been diagnosed with this, are they showing signs of this all day long or does it come and go? Is mom able to interact with and take care of the kids most of the time and then has sudden onset of the PPP behavior (which I really don’t even know what that means)?

It really depends on the person and how ill they are, but I think most people have a Hollywood version of psychosis in their head and that just isn't the case. There are psychotic people practicing law and no one has a clue. There are psychotic people teaching at universities. Some are CEOs of companies. Not all psychosis is the same. Most are not dangerous, at all. For many, the most prominent feature is they live in constant fear (thanks to paranoia or voices). The high-functioning chronic ones who are able to work, have usually made it to a point that they just accept it like any other illness. So when they hear voices, they know it's not real and they're able to talk themselves down. When it gets work, these are the ones who generally show up to the emergency room voluntarily and know when they need an admission for med changes. But most of the time, no one around them realizes they even suffer from this illness.
 
I don't know if perfectionism is involved in this particular mother's troubles but I suspect it could be. Just something to consider when reality & one's expectations clash.


Just to clarify, this link is NOT about postpartum psychosis. It is an entirely different illness. I think that's important because using articles like the above is like comparing anxiety to schizophrenia. There's just no comparison.
 
He had ordered takeout and left to pick it up. He was gone for less than 1/2 hour.

One thing I haven't seen here, although I haven't read the entire thread, is that there seems to be a lot of commonality between severe PPD, and difficult breastfeeding. What do other people think? It sure makes sense to me.

We don't know if she ever had PPD. PPD and PPP is not the same.
 
Her husband referenced that Lindsay was struggling with a condition, has it been stated what the condition was? What I wonder is if she stopped taking psychiatric medications while pregnant and possibly breast feeding. If that's the case, this could have been more than PPD or PPP.
 
Her husband referenced that Lindsay was struggling with a condition, has it been stated what the condition was? What I wonder is if she stopped taking psychiatric medications while pregnant and possibly breast feeding. If that's the case, this could have been more than PPD or PPP.
I've been wondering the same exact thing. There is a lot of speculation about this condition being PPP but I haven't seen a single fact to back it up. It would make perfect sense, but usually what we discuss here is based on facts so I'm just waiting for that information to be released.

Edit: I was able to find an article that mentions it. Now I just have more questions.
 
I've been wondering the same exact thing. There is a lot of speculation about this condition being PPP but I haven't seen a single fact to back it up. It would make perfect sense, but usually what we discuss here is based on facts so I'm just waiting for that information to be released.

Edit: I was able to find an article that mentions it. Now I just have more questions.
Yes, the only thing the article states is that Lindsay was "struggling with a condition". We don't know whether it was psychiatric or not.

ETA: this article does say that a family friend stated Lindsay was attending an intensive 5 day a week program for PPD. And the Rev stated that Lindsay was afflicted with "overwhelming mental illness".
Lindsay Clancy carried out shocking attack while husband picked up take-out: report
 
Her husband referenced that Lindsay was struggling with a condition, has it been stated what the condition was? What I wonder is if she stopped taking psychiatric medications while pregnant and possibly breast feeding. If that's the case, this could have been more than PPD or PPP.


"WBZ I-Team sources confirm she may have been suffering from postpartum psychosis."
 

"WBZ I-Team sources confirm she may have been suffering from postpartum psychosis."
That just makes this all the more tragic. It all could have been prevented if there had been a better method of intervention.
 
That just makes this all the more tragic. It all could have been prevented if there had been a better method of intervention.

I actually think she got an exemplary example of intervention. I think she got better care than most do. Short of a miracle, I don't think this could have been avoided, honestly. Even if the father hadn't gone out to get take-out, he would have showered at some point, he would have slept at some point. Unfortunately, we cannot always predict the trajectory of this type of illness.
 
I actually think she got an exemplary example of intervention. I think she got better care than most do. Short of a miracle, I don't think this could have been avoided, honestly. Even if the father hadn't gone out to get take-out, he would have showered at some point, he would have slept at some point. Unfortunately, we cannot always predict the trajectory of this type of illness.
I'm thinking inpatient treatment facility. McLean hospital for example.
 
I'm thinking inpatient treatment facility. McLean hospital for example.

I'm pretty sure another article said she was already inpatient. I'll say MOO about that since I can't remember for sure it was stated, but I believe someone linked the article already that said she was inpatient, then discharged to a 5-day a week partial hospital program. Also, McLean is part of Mass General, where she worked.
 
Assuming the info is correct about Lindsay receiving inpatient care then moved to outpatient when it was believed her condition had improved or was managed well enough for outpatient care - Is it possible her psychosis could have intensified because she was at home with the children before/after her outpatient care appointments ? Would worrying about being well enough to be around her children cause her stress and anxiety she did not have as an inpatient ? Would increasing anxiety and stress excalate to a psychotic break despite PPS being managed well under inpatient care ?
 

"....'To all the people condemning her, I ask you to please look into postpartum psychosis and see if that changes your thoughts, even just a little bit.'
I pray for Lindsay as she eventually will surface from the depths of hell she was feeling inside only to find out she is in a new kind of hell…I pray she is given support throughout this horrific fog.'..."


I haven't noticed much condemnation, here or in general. (A lot of sorrow and that is all. :()
Actually it looks like there is more forgiveness and support from the public than otherwise ?

What about intensive treatment at a hospital, and someday when she is able to forgive herself, she could hopefully begin her life anew ; as in -- she does not deserve to be locked up for many years, or for life -- if she didn't know what she was doing ?

If Lindsay suffered a total blackout, or if she didn't understand at the time of the deaths that what she was doing was wrong -- can the charges be dropped and she could have mental health care instead ?


In the above link, some friends alluded to possibly more mental issues than just PPD or PPS :


"...'I knew Lindsay from high school...we spent many hours together doing CNA clinical hours and she was such a kind, loving person,' she wrote.

'What I can say for sure is she was battling some serious demons, that nobody can understand if you've never experienced it yourself...."


Question: Was she ill before the children were born ?
I believe this is important.

Did a doctor or nurse ever say that she shouldn't have any children due to her health ?
Trying to see if there were any red flags and if this could have been prevented.

M00.
 
Assuming the info is correct about Lindsay receiving inpatient care then moved to outpatient when it was believed her condition had improved or was managed well enough for outpatient care - Is it possible her psychosis could have intensified because she was at home with the children before/after her outpatient care appointments ? Would worrying about being well enough to be around her children cause her stress and anxiety she did not have as an inpatient ? Would increasing anxiety and stress excalate to a psychotic break despite PPS being managed well under inpatient care ?

Psychosis in general can be exacerbated by stress, so yes all of that is possible. But it's also possible it didn't happen that way. There's no way to know without her or her doctors telling us. I think we just have to be comfortable with not knowing the trigger, if there even was one, until the trial (if there is one).
 

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