MA - Lindsay Clancy, Strangled 3 Children in Murder/Suicide Attempt, Duxbury, Jan 2023

[Sarahlou]

The faces of those little children and the baby haunt me.

Question :
When her husband arrived home, she was outside on the ground after having jumped, correct ?
Was the window open ?
If so and if the glass was broken, that would be odd as you'd just open your window and push the screen out to jump, right ?



Bbm.
It's been reported that she jumped, but afaik only the husband said this ?

So, wondering if she was indeed found on the ground with injuries .... but is there proof she jumped out of the window ?
Imo.

She is paralysed, she has spinal fractures...

 

[SpideySense]

It's been reported that she jumped, but afaik only the husband said this ?

So, wondering if she was indeed found on the ground with injuries .... but is there proof she jumped out of the window ?
Imo.

During the arraignment, it came out that husband entered their locked upstairs bedroom, saw the window “open”, then looked out and saw LC on the ground. I don’t know if it’s been confirmed she jumped through glass or a screen. But my understanding is that her broken vertebrae were the result from the fall/jump.

 

[SpideySense]

I don’t know that she had as much conscious intent as to only want to appear that she killed herself.

But it does seem to me that she had a plan for them, whereas what she did to herself was spur of the moment.

I don’t know what that means.

But even if it were spur of the moment, she would know how to jab her carotid, or slice open her radial arteries. She went so far as to cut herself, so pain/blood wasn’t stopping her. I don’t know what she was thinking or why she did any of this, but the results of her actions tell me she did not actually want or intend to kill herself. MOO

 

[spicyrock]

But even if it were spur of the moment, she would know how to jab her carotid, or slice open her radial arteries. She went so far as to cut herself, so pain/blood wasn’t stopping her. I don’t know what she was thinking or why she did any of this, but the results of her actions tell me she did not actually want or intend to kill herself. MOO

It makes me think she was frantic. Driven when she killed the kids, frantic when she tried to kill herself.

 

[Erutan]

She is paralysed, she has spinal fractures...

I wondered about that as the prosecutor said she can move her arms and legs and that despite the fractures LC is not a paraplegic .
This was mentioned in a past post here, iirc ?

 

[Which_pancake]

I wondered about that as the prosecutor said she can move her arms and legs and that despite the fractures LC is not a paraplegic .
This was mentioned in a past post here, iirc ?

I believe the DA said during the arraignment they originally were told that, but then they received the letter from her surgeon the night before which confirmed that she is currently paralyzed with a transection of her spine. MOO

 

[infinit]

But even if it were spur of the moment, she would know how to jab her carotid, or slice open her radial arteries. She went so far as to cut herself, so pain/blood wasn’t stopping her. I don’t know what she was thinking or why she did any of this, but the results of her actions tell me she did not actually want or intend to kill herself. MOO

I spent time in a psychiatric hospital after a suicide attempt. I met a guy who now medicated was lovely, we sat and watched TV, chatted for hours about music, current affairs. etc

He'd been brought in (in his own words) because he had become convinced his neighbours were trying to attack his parents by coming through their shared wall in the loft. He'd apparently been hearing them up their for multiple nights and when he came home and couldn't find his parents grabbed a kitchen knife and went banging on the neighbours door. The Police got called and he ended up in a stand off with them in the street, thinking they were in on this conspiracy against his parents. (He could realise after the fact this was all very bizarre and was apparently the 1st time anything like this had happened)

What really came through to me was he was *advertiser censored* scared and fearful about his parents safety. Just because you're psychotic doesn't necessarily mean all your natural instincts evaporate and you can suddenly plunge a knife through your neck. When I was suicidal I picked the method I did because I physically couldn't bring myself to do others.

I don't know about her case, it will be up to the professionals.

 

[SpideySense]

It makes me think she was frantic. Driven when she killed the kids, frantic when she tried to kill herself.

That might very well have been the case. Had she only jumped out the window, I could see that as frenzy. Had she cut herself all over in a frenzy of self-mutilation and self-hatred for what she had just done, I could see that.

But cuts in the vicinity of known anatomical routes of suicide that don’t “hit home” so to speak? That’s a bigger stretch for me. If it were a true intentional suicidal frenzy, I’d expect her to keep stabbing those arteries until they were shredded.

Here’s a bad anecdotal comparison, bc I can’t know what LC’s state of mind was. Once my son, who was maybe 4, began choking on a bite of pizza right in front of me. Well, in an instant I was in a blind frenzy. I recall a chair between us that I must have thrown aside - anything that was in my way went flying across the room. I don’t recall him weighing anything as I picked him up, checked his mouth, and turned him around.

But I didn’t forget to do the Heimlich, or how to do it (even if I did it incredibly badly).

LC’s a nurse. If she had a goal, frenzied or not, of killing herself, she wouldn’t have forgotten how to do it. If her goal in a frenzy was to self-harm but not necessarily kill herself, I’d expect chaotic random slashes. If her goal was to appear like she attempted suicide but not actually kill herself, I’d expect ineffective cuts in certain places.

Of course, this is all speculation based on the limited understanding of the facts we have.

 

[spicyrock]

Can I just say, as awful as the topic we’re discussing is, you guys and the way you’ve discussed this have given me a lot of faith in our humanity. And y’all who have struggled with mental illness too or been close to someone who has and opened up about it, have made me feel so much less alone and I thank you. None of us is alone. There are people who care. That’s a light in an often dark place. Don’t go to Reddit lol

 

[iamshadow21]

Can I just say, as awful as the topic we’re discussing is, you guys and the way you’ve discussed this have given me a lot of faith in our humanity. And y’all who have struggled with mental illness too or been close to someone who has and opened up about it, have made me feel so much less alone and I thank you. None of us is alone. There are people who care. That’s a light in an often dark place. Don’t go to Reddit lol

You really started the ball rolling by being so open. The rest of us have just built on that.

No fear! I'll leave Reddit to other folks who have their waders on and are willing to push through all that muck. Not my cup of tea.

 

[spicyrock]

That might very well have been the case. Had she only jumped out the window, I could see that as frenzy. Had she cut herself all over in a frenzy of self-mutilation and self-hatred for what she had just done, I could see that.

But cuts in the vicinity of known anatomical routes of suicide that don’t “hit home” so to speak? That’s a bigger stretch for me. If it were a true intentional suicidal frenzy, I’d expect her to keep stabbing those arteries until they were shredded.

Here’s a bad anecdotal comparison, bc I can’t know what LC’s state of mind was. Once my son, who was maybe 4, began choking on a bite of pizza right in front of me. Well, in an instant I was in a blind frenzy. I recall a chair between us that I must have thrown aside - anything that was in my way went flying across the room. I don’t recall him weighing anything as I picked him up, checked his mouth, and turned him around.

But I didn’t forget to do the Heimlich, or how to do it (even if I did it incredibly badly).

LC’s a nurse. If she had a goal, frenzied or not, of killing herself, she wouldn’t have forgotten how to do it. If her goal in a frenzy was to self-harm but not necessarily kill herself, I’d expect chaotic random slashes. If her goal was to appear like she attempted suicide but not actually kill herself, I’d expect ineffective cuts in certain places.

Of course, this is all speculation based on the limited understanding of the facts we have.

I kind of follow you, especially about a nurse’s training- but what kind of end goal could she have possibly had? It looks like a real suicide attempt to me, and I struggle to find any other goal she could have had.

 

[spicyrock]

I think we’ve focused a lot on her psychiatric state- but those meds can’t be discounted from that assessment. She must have been very sedated, confused. Disoriented. Maybe even blacked out with the benzos. I think it’s important to remember, that element played in to this.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Lindsay Clancy psychiatrist says she is 'wondering what's going on'

Dr. Paul Zeizel is a clinical psychologist in Massachusetts. He was hired by Clancy's lawyer to evaluate her, and must spend several hours a day with her in order to do so.

www.dailymail.co.uk

What is the defense thinking??? This guy is a psychologist? Why would they hire a psychologist to speak about this?

For reference, a psychologist -- NOT a medical doctor and does not prescribe meds.

Psychiatrist -- medical doctor who prescribes.

The defense hired the wrong specialist, IMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Wait a minute… something pretty obvious just dawned on me.

LC describes herself on her FB page as a “Labor & Delivery RN at Massachusetts General Hospital.” So, she’s an RN.

RNs have to take and pass a pretty advanced Anatomy & Physiology course - in CA that course is more rigorous and detailed than the Anat&Physio classes required for EMTs, but I’m not sure if that’s the case nationally.

Regardless, any person with medical training knows how to feel for a pulse in the radial or carotid artery. They know exactly where those critical vessels are located. They know about blood vessel collapse, clotting, etc.

According to the details from the arraignment, LC appeared to understand that the ligatures needed to remain tight around the little necks of her children for several minutes beyond the point of loss of consciousness, to ensure they would die and not spontaneously revive. Whether she was acting under a delusion of psychosis or not, she didn’t forget her medical training as she killed her children.

As an RN, LC had the knowledge to very easily complete her act of suicide, fairly quickly and without jumping out a window. I don’t want to go into details in a public forum, but for a trained professional with knowledge of anatomy, IMO it would be difficult to botch a genuine suicide attempt.

So, how can she or anyone possibly explain her huge shift in competence and ability between killing her children and killing herself? Being psychotic throughout wouldn’t explain it, nor would being depressed or suicidal.

The only way this makes sense to me is that she wanted to kill her children, but she only wanted to appear like she wanted to kill herself.

Lindsay Clancy Facebook

That's not an accurate assumption. There are a (not small) number of nurses, doctors, and EMTs who attempt suicide and don't succeed. I've treated them and in most cases, they actually did want to die. There's any number of reasons someone's suicide attempt can fail, especially if they're acutely psychotic.

 

[PriorTheCreator]

This is something I cant, and dont think I will ever be able to understand.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

There's been some inaccurate things said here that I think should be cleared up as this is a public forum and I hate to see medical misinformation out there.

First, SSRIs are very commonly prescribed in bipolar disorder, especially in Bipolar II, where the prominent feature is depression. They're usually prescribed with a mood stabilizer on-board in order to provide coverage and prevent a manic or hypomanic switch. Lamictal and Seroquel are both mood stabilizers so I don't see anything off about Prozac being used in this case. Even if she has bipolar disorder, Prozac being prescribed isn't unusual nor can we say it's the cause of what's happened. We don't know.

Second, Lamictal has a number of indications, some FDA-approved and some off-label, yet widely used. Lamictal was created to be a seizure medication and it is FDA-approved for a number of seizure disorders. Lamictal is also used for maintenance of Bipolar I (notice I said maintenance rather than acute symptoms). It is also used for Bipolar depression you would see with Bipolar II (generally for acute depression). It is typically NOT used by itself for treatment of bipolar mania. It is usually 2nd or 3rd line for that and usually used in combination with other meds. Lamictal is also sometimes used for self-harm or for irritability and impulsivity that accompanies some personality disorders.

I've said earlier in the thread there's a very high overlap between bipolar I and postpartum psychosis. But it's also important to note that many women who experience postpartum psychosis don't know they have bipolar I. The reason for this is that they may have never had a manic episode (a diagnostic criteria for bipolar I) prior. Some have no psych history at all. That's because psych disorders like this can present in women in their 20s and 30s and women who have babies are also generally in their 20s and 30s, so they may have never had symptoms of bipolar or psychosis before and then suddenly, the hormones shift after delivery and this emerges.

Without knowing more about Lindsay, it's impossible for us to know what her diagnoses were/are, what her meds were used for, or what was happening at the time of this incident.

 

[spicyrock]

What is the defense thinking??? This guy is a psychologist? Why would they hire a psychologist to speak about this?

For reference, a psychologist -- NOT a medical doctor and does not prescribe meds.

Psychiatrist -- medical doctor who prescribes.

The defense hired the wrong specialist, IMO.

I wonder about that too. I wonder if they intentionally elected not to get a psychiatrist.

 

[spicyrock]

There's been some inaccurate things said here that I think should be cleared up as this is a public forum and I hate to see medical misinformation out there.

First, SSRIs are very commonly prescribed in bipolar disorder, especially in Bipolar II, where the prominent feature is depression. They're usually prescribed with a mood stabilizer on-board in order to provide coverage and prevent a manic or hypomanic switch. Lamictal and Seroquel are both mood stabilizers so I don't see anything off about Prozac being used in this case. Even if she has bipolar disorder, Prozac being prescribed isn't unusual nor can we say it's the cause of what's happened. We don't know.

Second, Lamictal has a number of indications, some FDA-approved and some off-label, yet widely used. Lamictal was created to be a seizure medication and it is FDA-approved for a number of seizure disorders. Lamictal is also used for maintenance of Bipolar I (notice I said maintenance rather than acute symptoms). It is also used for Bipolar depression you would see with Bipolar II (generally for acute depression). It is typically NOT used by itself for treatment of bipolar mania. It is usually 2nd or 3rd line for that and usually used in combination with other meds. Lamictal is also sometimes used for self-harm or for irritability and impulsivity that accompanies some personality disorders.

I've said earlier in the thread there's a very high overlap between bipolar I and postpartum psychosis. But it's also important to note that many women who experience postpartum psychosis don't know they have bipolar I. The reason for this is that they may have never had a manic episode (a diagnostic criteria for bipolar I) prior. Some have no psych history at all. That's because psych disorders like this can present in women in their 20s and 30s and women who have babies are also generally in their 20s and 30s, so they may have never had symptoms of bipolar or psychosis before and then suddenly, the hormones shift after delivery and this emerges.

Without knowing more about Lindsay, it's impossible for us to know what her diagnoses were/are, what her meds were used for, or what was happening at the time of this incident.

Just in case any of this pertains to me, I want to reiterate. I am one patient and not an expert, and these things in the above post are also true. Mental illness doesn’t look the same person to person and med response also varies greatly from person to person. And I would not want to give anyone any other impression.

ETA, always late to the game with the poster titles- I just realized you are a doctor, so of course your info is accurate, lol. Sorry about that, and thanks for your educated perspective.

 

[iamshadow21]

I've said earlier in the thread there's a very high overlap between bipolar I and postpartum psychosis. But it's also important to note that many women who experience postpartum psychosis don't know they have bipolar I. The reason for this is that they may have never had a manic episode (a diagnostic criteria for bipolar I) prior. Some have no psych history at all. That's because psych disorders like this can present in women in their 20s and 30s and women who have babies are also generally in their 20s and 30s, so they may have never had symptoms of bipolar or psychosis before and then suddenly, the hormones shift after delivery and this emerges.

Without knowing more about Lindsay, it's impossible for us to know what her diagnoses were/are, what her meds were used for, or what was happening at the time of this incident.

Yeah, IANAD, but that's what I caveated what I said with people not needing to have a prior diagnosis or behaviour indicating a mental health condition before being pregnant. There's obviously some kind of switch we don't fully understand yet that gets flicked by pregnancy, probably chemical, in people who have a predisposition to psychosis. I imagine there are studies being done around PPP, mapping family mental health conditions, like they're doing for folks with schizophrenia.

MOO

 

[SpideySense]

What is the defense thinking??? This guy is a psychologist? Why would they hire a psychologist to speak about this?

For reference, a psychologist -- NOT a medical doctor and does not prescribe meds.

Psychiatrist -- medical doctor who prescribes.

The defense hired the wrong specialist, IMO.

I had the exact same thought! Why a psychologist?!

The next thing that went through my mind was: These are competent attorneys, familiar with the psychiatric issues in this case. They must have read the record and determined that a psychiatrist is unlikely to support their anticipated defense, whether it’s about psychosis or medications or PPD. So they’re bringing in a psychologist who’ll testify more like a “mental health professional” who’s just a glorified, tangential layperson on the medical side of things.

You would know better than me, but I’m assuming it would be more difficult to find a psychiatrist who would testify that LC’s treating psychiatrist was wrong in determining she didn’t have PPD, or wrong in prescribing the medications she was given. A psychologist might be a bit more inclined to testify from a medication-skeptical, “let me tell you about PPD,” squishy sort of place.