MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #11

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MyJoey said:
It’s not even reasonable to call at those hours, she’s a grown woman. Not sure what to say about her responsibility, out drinking and driving.
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My god daughter is 40. When he mother was alive they spoke at least ten times a day. Oftentimes this age group is “best friends” with their Mom. Sharing everything.
Certainly not like my growing up.
My 36 yr old nephew same thing with his Dad. Calls at all hours.
And as the godmother and aunt they call me at all hours too. Late at night early morning hours - usually been drinking and want to hash out a relationship issue or had a bad day at work and the world is ending.
This generation imo is immature for their age - due to lots of helicopter parenting.
Imo.
 
waldojabba said:
My god daughter is 40. When he mother was alive they spoke at least ten times a day. Oftentimes this age group is “best friends” with their Mom. Sharing everything.
Certainly not like my growing up.
My 36 yr old nephew same thing with his Dad. Calls at all hours.
And as the godmother and aunt they call me at all hours too. Late at night early morning hours - usually been drinking and want to hash out a relationship issue or had a bad day at work and the world is ending.
This generation imo is immature for their age - due to lots of helicopter parenting.
Imo.
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Well felt that one in my soul, I really really want to tell you, that you are very incorrect and we would never do such a thing, but it's true. I am almost 40 and if I need my Mom I am going to call my mom, and I generally need my mom for the slightest inconvenience my husband is the same way, we call our mom's AT LEAST 3 times a week and I see mine at least 2 times a week.
I do disagree slightly that its due to lots of helicopter parenting, I think it's due to being ignored and latchkey kids and now we have no idea what the heck we are doing so we need our parents.
 
@SueNBCBoston

Court is in session.Jurors are out.Jackson making an argument that no reasonable or rational jury can come to a unanimous conclusion of guilt.

Jackson: No evidence Karen Read’s vehicle hit John OKeefe.
The Commonwealth’s theory depends on Trooper Paul’s theory
There is no evidence that supports his theory.
The ME doesn’t believe it’s a homicide.

Asking the court to find Karen Read not guilty on all counts.
 
@BienickWCVB

Court resumes without the jury present. Jackson begins to argue that the judge should find Read not guilty at this point. Says prosecutors have not met their burden.

Such motions are fairly common at this point in a trial. Judge Cannone is listening but taking few notes as Jackson makes his argument.

Jackson is calling out, in particular, the testimony of Trooper Paul, which he says is not credible.

Lally responds to the defense motion. Says the prosecution case is not just based on Trooper Paul's testimony. Says they have physical evidence, including taillight pieces.
 
thebedbug said:
The impact of something (even Read's SUV) at 24mph doesn't automatically break a bone.

A lot of factors would go into it:

what was his body positioning when he's hit?
did he have a moment to brace?
could he have been trying to jump out of the way?
what surface is he being hit by?
what's the reaction of his body after he's hit?
does he fly through the air?
does he "stick" to the car some?
does he go under the car?
do any combination of those things happen?
if he's knocked in the air... where does he land?
how does he land?

...and those are just off the top of my head. i'm sure we could come up with a dozen more, if we put a few minutes into it.

anecdotally - when I was a kid (about 10 or 11), I had a friend that ran out into the street and got hit by a car - which I can only guess was going somewhere between 25-35mph (it was a pretty rural one-lane street with very little traffic, but that's how fast people would go). in some combination of forces and momentum I don't quite understand, he was knocked up and landed in the yard across the street. He was home from the hospital that night with no broken bones (or - to be fair - skull fractures). having said that, it's not hard to imagine how it all could've ended much worse if any number of factors had been slightly different.

if you want to talk about being disingenuous - i'd suggest that anyone claiming the lack of other broken bones on his body is a sure sign he wasn't hit by her SUV, certainly fits the description.
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A hit by a car that results in no broken bones. Sure.

A hit by a car that results in no broken bones and no bruising but also causes those kind of head injuries. That's harder to believe.

Especially, if you recall, the commonwealth's theory of the collision is that his arm bore the full brunt of the weight of the SUV backing into him. Yet the only sign of the impact was those scratches.
 
Moonstrawbs said:
I said this yesterday, but if the ME doesn't deem JO's death a homicide, then what are we doing here?!
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No, a medical examiner (ME) does not have to officially classify a death as a "homicide" for there to be a murder trial. Here are some key points and explanations on this matter:

Legal Definitions and Roles​

  1. Medical Examiner's Role:
    • The medical examiner determines the cause and manner of death. The manner of death can be classified as natural, accidental, suicide, homicide, or undetermined.
    • The ME's classification as "homicide" means that the death resulted from the intentional actions of another person.
  2. Legal Process:
    • Prosecutor's Role: It is the role of the prosecutor, not the medical examiner, to decide whether to bring charges and what those charges will be. This decision is based on the totality of the evidence, including but not limited to the ME's findings.
    • Evidence and Investigation: Law enforcement and prosecutors may pursue a murder charge if there is sufficient evidence of criminal intent, regardless of the ME's classification. Other evidence, such as witness testimony, forensic evidence, and circumstantial evidence, is also crucial.

Case Example​

  • Example Scenario: An ME may classify a death as undetermined due to insufficient evidence to conclusively rule it a homicide. However, further investigation by law enforcement might uncover evidence of foul play, leading to a murder charge and trial.

Legal Precedents and Procedures​

  1. Indictments and Charges:
    • Grand juries and prosecutors can issue indictments based on probable cause. This does not necessarily rely solely on the ME’s classification.
    • A murder charge can proceed if there is substantial evidence suggesting that the accused had the intent to kill and caused the death.
  2. Court Decisions:
    • Courts have recognized that while the ME’s findings are significant, they are part of a broader array of evidence considered in criminal proceedings. The legal system relies on a holistic view of all available evidence.

Practical Considerations​

  • Complex Cases: In complex cases, especially those involving multiple potential causes of death or where the circumstances of death are unclear, the ME's report is just one piece of the puzzle.
  • Jury’s Role: Ultimately, it is up to the jury to weigh all the evidence presented at trial and determine whether the defendant is guilty of murder.

References​

  • American Bar Association
  • National Institute of Justice
  • Cornell Law School Legal Information Institute
In conclusion, while a medical examiner’s classification of a death as a homicide can significantly impact a murder investigation and subsequent trial, it is not an absolute requirement for a murder trial to proceed. The decision to prosecute and the determination of murder charges depend on the entirety of the evidence collected by law enforcement and presented by the prosecution.


4o
 
Moonstrawbs said:
I said this yesterday, but if the ME doesn't deem JO's death a homicide, then what are we doing here?!
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I said something similar. It's mind-boggling to me and a definite over-reach, especially after listening to testimony and seeing evidence from the CW. Even taking out the "conspiracy" aspect, I just don't see murder here. Whole case is a mess.
IMO
 
ch_13 said:
A hit by a car that results in no broken bones. Sure.

A hit by a car that results in no broken bones and no bruising but also causes those kind of head injuries. That's harder to believe.

Especially, if you recall, the commonwealth's theory of the collision is that his arm bore the full brunt of the weight of the SUV backing into him. Yet the only sign of the impact was those scratches.
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you're arguing something different.

but it sounds like you agree that the posts saying his lack of other broken bones is a sure sign he wasn't hit are not correct.

glad we can put that point to rest.
 
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