MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #4

[themonk]

The suggestion is that Caitlan Albert took the dog when her bf Tristan picked her up. That was much later, closer to 2am

ah i might be mixing up the players. thank you

 

[thebedbug]

If they had started with the physical evidence, it would have cemented in the jurors minds that John died from a collision with a car and then all the stuff about the Solo cups and whether Karen said "I hit him" wouldn't have made much of a difference. That fact that they didn't lead with this makes me suspect the physical evidence is not so great for them. But maybe I'm wrong. Hopefully, we'll see next week.

i'm not overly impressed with the prosecution. i think the points made are often sloppy. i think the anticipation and refutation or creative preemption of defense arguments has been poor.

but - i don't think it's a prosecution without a plan. letting the defense get deep into their conspiracy plot and then closing with their very best physical and circumstantial evidence is certainly a way of shining "the light of day" on ideas like "CA killed JO over a lawn dispute" or "the guys were practicing their fighting techniques in the bar" or "JM was actually trying to lure JO away to be killed" etc. without having to get into a (more) tedious tit-for-tat.

stay tuned.

 

[Charlot123]

Yes so much of this is true. And I think the following point is paramount:

“that any investigation should be performed according to the rules….”

It is difficult to determine whether or not that is the case here. But IMO I would hope that Canton MA internal affairs will be investigating this - and if deemed that they cannot impartially do so (and so far seems to be the case?) the AG, DA, or even FBI should do so. (Maybe the latter is related to an apparent FBI IA investigation noted above IIRC and I am simply unaware?)

As others have said too, sadly JOK is dead from some incident or incidents that occurred that evening or early morning.

But from what has been observed thus far, the investigation seems inadequate, incomplete, or even suspect IMO. And why no DNA or other work done on the wounds on his arm? That alone is bothersome and highly irregular IMO.

Even if KR might have accidentally backed into JOK, why is the case charged as done? Is there not an involuntary manslaughter type charge available in MA, Canton? IANAL. MOO

I think, everything. KR hitting him and leaving, KR involving other people in the morning, but also - dragging full attention to a policeman’s house after that house withstood the night of intense drinking and partying, including minors and local PD, in the midst of a blizzard. Basically, KR leaving a body to freeze through the night in front of the said house didn’t endear anyone in Canton to her. MOO.

It is an incredibly odd situation. Sometimes, KR comes across as gutsy, sometimes, the feeling is that she is living in her own world. JMO.

 

[shotgun09]

I'm actually reasonably sure that's exactly what happened. Tristan's return makes no sense at all and was really never explained. BA Sr.'s comment about Chloe maybe being in a closet is almost laughable, Chloe had no reaction to all the activity on the front lawn as her owners claim they never heard a thing, and Jen McCabe burst into the house and then the bedroom and somehow never heard nor saw the dog.

This isn't all the puzzle pieces, but it's enough to see what the picture is depicting.

Also regarding Chloe the dog, I have been waiting for the question to each of the 5-6 people in the Albert home in the 7-11 am range on Jan 29th, " Where was Chloe?" "Did you see Chloe?". " Did you hear Chloe?".
Jen McCabe's answer was, " I don't remember". <rolleyes>
Maybe Brian Higgins will have that answered for us tomorrow.

 

[ch_13]

i'm not overly impressed with the prosecution. i think the points made are often sloppy. i think the anticipation and refutation or creative preemption of defense arguments has been poor.

but - i don't think it's a prosecution without a plan. letting the defense get deep into their conspiracy plot and then closing with their very best physical and circumstantial evidence is certainly a way of shining "the light of day" on ideas like "CA killed JO over a lawn dispute" or "the guys were practicing their fighting techniques in the bar" or "JM was actually trying to lure JO away to be killed" etc. without having to get into a (more) tedious tit-for-tat.

stay tuned.

If that's true, I really don't think it's good strategy on the part of the prosecution. I know from experience that once someone starts believing in a conspiracy theory, it's very, very difficult to use logic and evidence to convince them the theory is untrue.

If some of these jurors start believing in the defense's version of events, then any facts presented by the DA later in the trial will just fall on deaf ears.

 

[themonk]

I was called for jury duty a year ago and they called us all separately to do the voir dire and they put me on the stand. It was a nerve wrecking experience being up there. I couldn’t remember the answers to a couple basic questions. I can’t EVEN IMAGINE what it’s like for these witnesses under these circumstances.

While you might have had trouble remembering things did you also commit perjury? Did you lie at any point?

My guess is you did not. That is where this trial is different.

 

[jepop]

I am not fully onboard with the suggestion that has been made that Allie took Chloe with her when she picked up Colin.

But it has been suggested the lost dog story is just a story. That is why I ask.

oh ok thanks! I missed both of those. But testimony so far is that Chloe was at 34 Fairview that night as that is where she lived? I'm quite interested in speculation that Chloe may have gone with with Caitlyn Albert from 34 fairview when her bf did the late night pick up, mainly because Chloe appears to have not been seen or heard by JMc when she burst into CA and NA's room at six thirty am that morning. No barking or anything. But waiting for more testimony and can't actually recall what CA and NA said re Chloe's whereabouts that morning. jmo

 

[HarmonyE.]

Also regarding Chloe the dog, I have been waiting for the question to each of the 5-6 people in the Albert home in the 7-11 am range on Jan 29th, " Where was Chloe?" "Did you see Chloe?". " Did you hear Chloe?".
Jen McCabe's answer was, " I don't remember". <rolleyes>
Maybe Brian Higgins will have that answered for us tomorrow.

I know a lot of KR supporters think Brian Higgins "flipped" because of the FBI proffer. I don't agree. First, we don't know if the FBI accepted any offer from him to provide information in exchange for some favorable treatment, and if they did, whether it has any direct relationship to what on in the house that night. I think his testimony will be reasonably similar to what we heard from others. Although I have no idea why the McCabes, and the McCabes alone, insist his Jeep was parked in between the vehicle Ryan Nagle was in and KR's vehicle. He may have something to say about that.

It's Proctor I want to hear from. But at the end of the day, it's going to be the phone data and the biomechanical experts that will likely interest the jury the most. Karen has the FBI to thank for this.

 

[jepop]

Setting aside all the drama that this poor jury has to deal with, the fact that the sloppy, one-sided and questionable investigation led by a highly conflicted Troopah has been shown in court. Trooper Proctor, or Proctor Trooper , was working on THE MOTIVE ( Sullivan sistahs) on Feb 8th, 2022 !! What on earth? The guy had not even KNOWN who all was at the home of the party at Fairview by then, because he was so conflicted and led by the nose to look the other way.

That is what I see. Hopefully the jury does. And I believe that is what the citizens of Canton see as well. Whether they march with TB or not, there is surely something brewing in Canton MA. IMO, the defense has successfully shown conflict and coercion and selective targeting/charging. If I was a citizen there, I would be very alarmed.


Justice for John O'Keefe ! No matter how we get there.

Tunnel vision at its finest imo

 

[jepop]

I do not believe that JO was "set up" and that an assault was pre-planned, not at all. They had no way of knowing ahead of time that KR would stay in the car and not go to the house with JO. What would have been the motive anyway?

I believe what happened was that JO was approaching the house as CA was leaving the house and words were exchanged and CA started throwing punches. In his inebriated state, JO fell and hit his head on the steps or some other structure, knocking him unconscious. He dropped his phone during the fight. CA panicked, his ride came, he hopped in AM's car and off they went. He or she somehow got in touch with their parents and explained what happened, and good 'ol mom JM came to the rescue.

They had seen where KR was parked along the street waiting for JO and that is where they decided to dump his body after they found him unconscious and thought he was dead. Then JM called his phone to find it and put it under him.

That is the best I can come up with right now considering the evidence presented thus far.

I'm really trying hard to refrain on speculating various scenarios until I've heard the wound evidence and BH's testimony. Could be a while!! I agree with your first paragraph 100 percent.

 

[ch_13]

I know a lot of KR supporters think Brian Higgins "flipped" because of the FBI proffer. I don't agree. First, we don't know if the FBI accepted any offer from him to provide information in exchange for some favorable treatment, and if they did, whether it has any direct relationship to what on in the house that night. I think his testimony will be reasonably similar to what we heard from others. Although I have no idea why the McCabes, and the McCabes alone, insist his Jeep was parked in between the vehicle Ryan Nagle was in and KR's vehicle. He may have something to say about that.

It's Proctor I want to hear from. But at the end of the day, it's going to be the phone data and the biomechanical experts that will likely interest the jury the most. Karen has the FBI to thank for this.

I have no idea if Higgins "flipped" or not. Likely not.

But tomorrow should be extremely interesting.

• He had some kind of dalliance with Karen Read. Flirty text messages and a kiss a few weeks prior.
• That night, Brian Albert says they went upstairs to look at something at 34 Fairview. If I recall correctly, a lot of the other witnesses didn't name BH as an attendee. Where was he?
• The whole jeep thing and where exactly it was parked.
• When he left Fairview, he apparently went straight to his office at the Canton PD. Why did he go to work at 1:30 AM on a Friday night while presumably drunk? He's works for the DEA, so I doubt he was on-call because of the snowstorm.
• The 2:30 AM "butt dial" with Brian Albert and the subsequent destruction of his phone SIM card. (And something about it happening at an Army base?)

I suspect there'll be a lot to dissect after his testimony.

 

[shotgun09]

I am anticipating the Higgins testimony regarding his return Butt Dial to Brian Albert at 2:30 am on Jan 29th.

Mercy

 

[keek]

I miss a lot. Who was Amy?

I don't believe we know but a gf of JO's in the past.

 

[themonk]

I just yelled to my assistant to hold all butt dials from Jennifer McCabe, Brian Higgins and Brian Albert.

 

[shotgun09]

I just yelled to my assistant to hold all butt dials from Jennifer McCabe, Brian Higgins and Brian Albert.

HaHa!!!!

STOP THE MADNESS !!!!

 

[HarmonyE.]

I do not believe that JO was "set up" and that an assault was pre-planned, not at all. They had no way of knowing ahead of time that KR would stay in the car and not go to the house with JO. What would have been the motive anyway?

I believe what happened was that JO was approaching the house as CA was leaving the house and words were exchanged and CA started throwing punches. In his inebriated state, JO fell and hit his head on the steps or some other structure, knocking him unconscious. He dropped his phone during the fight. CA panicked, his ride came, he hopped in AM's car and off they went. He or she somehow got in touch with their parents and explained what happened, and good 'ol mom JM came to the rescue.

They had seen where KR was parked along the street waiting for JO and that is where they decided to dump his body after they found him unconscious and thought he was dead. Then JM called his phone to find it and put it under him.

That is the best I can come up with right now considering the evidence presented thus far.

My best guess is there was a brief fist fight (would explain the extensive bruising to both of JO's hands if he put up his fists to ward off blows) with Chloe getting into the action causing the lacerations up and down his right arm if BA, her master, was the one throwing the punches. Then someone, probably Colin, whacked John in the back of the head with a heavy object, causing the small but deep laceration and the skull fractures. The eye swelling is likely related to the skull fractures.

What did John know about these people? What did he walk into? One thing we've learned for sure about the Alberts and the McCabes is they really don't behave like normal working people in their late 40s and 50s. And that they were extremely well connected both at the town and state level. Brian Albert was in a fugitive unit in the Boston Police Department for decades. While you and I probably would have instinctively called 911, his instincts may have been very different. He knew he could control much of the investigation by getting preferential treatment from friends and family. Dead body on the lawn, such a shame. Must have been hit by a vehicle.

They didn't count on Karen Read blundering onto the scene, asking if she hit him. At first, it must have seemed manna from heaven. But they had no way of knowing early on that she'd bumped into John's vehicle at 5 am and that there was video of this event. Uh oh.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Dre]

but - i don't think it's a prosecution without a plan. letting the defense get deep into their conspiracy plot and then closing with their very best physical and circumstantial evidence is certainly a way of shining "the light of day" on ideas like "CA killed JO over a lawn dispute" or "the guys were practicing their fighting techniques in the bar" or "JM was actually trying to lure JO away to be killed" etc. without having to get into a (more) tedious tit-for-tat.

stay tuned.

Rsbbm

I’m into this idea. I’d really love a bombshell and then some justice and conviction for the family’s sake, and I would love for the commonwealth to be fighting for real justice, and to learn that although the investigation/investigator was sub-par that the collusion was all just coincidences and misinterpretations.

I’m on Standby with you!!!

I won’t hold my breath though

 

[nodamselindistress]

My best guess is there was a brief fist fight (would explain the extensive bruising to both of JO's hands if he put up his fists to ward off blows) with Chloe getting into the action causing the lacerations up and down his right arm if BA, her master, was the one throwing the punches. Then someone, probably Colin, whacked John in the back of the head with a heavy object, causing the small but deep laceration and the skull fractures. The eye swelling is likely related to the skull fractures.

What did John know about these people? What did he walk into? One thing we've learned for sure about the Alberts and the McCabes is they really don't behave like normal working people in their late 40s and 50s. And that they were extremely well connected both at the town and state level. Brian Albert was in a fugitive unit in the Boston Police Department for decades. While you and I probably would have instinctively called 911, his instincts may have been very different. He knew he could control much of the investigation by getting preferential treatment by the friends and family. Dead body on the lawn, such a shame. Must have been hit by a vehicle.

The didn't count on Karen Read blundering onto the scene, asking if she hit him. At first, it must have seemed manna from heaven. But they had no way of knowing early on that she'd bumped into John's vehicle at 5 am and that there was video of this event. Uh oh.

Just my thoughts.

Good theory, makes sense! I have not yet figured out how Chloe became involved so left that out of my current theory.

 

[Dre]

My best guess is there was a brief fist fight (would explain the extensive bruising to both of JO's hands if he put up his fists to ward off blows) with Chloe getting into the action causing the lacerations up and down his right arm if BA, her master, was the one throwing the punches. Then someone, probably Colin, whacked John in the back of the head with a heavy object, causing the small but deep laceration and the skull fractures. The eye swelling is likely related to the skull fractures.

What did John know about these people? What did he walk into? One thing we've learned for sure about the Alberts and the McCabes is they really don't behave like normal working people in their late 40s and 50s. And that they were extremely well connected both at the town and state level. Brian Albert was in a fugitive unit in the Boston Police Department for decades. While you and I probably would have instinctively called 911, his instincts may have been very different. He knew he could control much of the investigation by getting preferential treatment by the friends and family. Dead body on the lawn, such a shame. Must have been hit by a vehicle.

The didn't count on Karen Read blundering onto the scene, asking if she hit him. At first, it must have seemed manna from heaven. But they had no way of knowing early on that she'd bumped into John's vehicle at 5 am and that there was video of this event. Uh oh.

Just my thoughts.

Excellent theory.
I keep finding myself wondering about what John knew about the texting going on between BH and KR. Did I hear that BH texted her that day?

Am I correct in thinking that the McCabe’s are possibly fabricating something against BH with his Jeep/plow being allegedly spotted parked on the street?

 

[jepop]

Well, I'm sure if you ask her, she just didn't want her butt to be randomly dialing 911.

...adding to said butt's already heavy workload, (plus over time for deletions)