Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #33

[WestLondoner]

Personally I think there is little value in trying to parse HCWs every word. Both because in other cases, statements have tended to be quite misleading about what they evidence, and I also doubt HCW is trying to give us clues.

And you are also correct about the language thing. We've seen before that some of the translations in the UK media are not particularly accurate, or where HCW speaks english, then we have to be careful.

Do you have the link to what he says in the SF interview? Did he say that in english or in german?

For instance "Ich will das nicht sagen" could have different Interpretations depending on context

100% IMHO.

Ich will das nicht sagen literally means "I don't want to say that", but depending on the context, a better translation of the intended sense might be "I wouldn't put it like that" or "I wouldn't say that, exactly". It's just how the language goes together, and if you translate directly, you sometimes convey a nuance that's not there.

My favourite example of this is the adjective sogenannt, which literally means "so-called" (so = "so"; genannt = past participle of nennen, "to name", hence "named"; which put together make one word sogenannt = "thus-named" or "so-called"). In German you frequently come across this word - in sentences like die sogenannte 'Romantische Strasse' läuft zwischen Würzburg und Füssen, which is typically then directly translated as "The so-called Romantic Road runs between Würzburg and Füssen'.

The word "so-called" in English has overtones of scepticism, doubt, or derision ("this is my so-called car"), however, that are completely absent from the German word. Sogennant really just has the sense of "often known as", or "sometimes referred to as".

So yes, I wouldn't hang too much off micronuances in what people say in this instance.

 

[G-Unit]

It makes wonder why HCW behaved as he did, and why he was allowed to do it for so long. They had been investigating CB for three years without anyone knowing and then they not only went public, they went public with very little information. Even if they had learned who phoned his alleged mobile on 3rd May, and had been able to confirm it was him, how would that have helped?

I can only conclude that it was an attempt to cause widespread awareness of their suspicions, which it certainly did. I think they were hoping that the evidence they needed would emerge, but the lack of a charge suggests that it didn't.

 

[Janosch]

Trying to call the attention?
See 3:11 to 3:16 approx.

 

[Dave55]

Why is that? Surely HCW would only need to provide information relating to the crimes CB is being charg

U

It makes wonder why HCW behaved as he did, and why he was allowed to do it for so long. They had been investigating CB for three years without anyone knowing and then they not only went public, they went public with very little information. Even if they had learned who phoned his alleged mobile on 3rd May, and had been able to confirm it was him, how would that have helped?

I can only conclude that it was an attempt to cause widespread awareness of their suspicions, which it certainly did. I think they were hoping that the evidence they needed would emerge, but the lack of a charge suggests that it didn't.

I think you under estimate the BKA and Wolters. They are ready to go to trial on the 5 cases...which the PJ failed on...even though he was caught with his trousers down by a police woman . I can't see HCM making these claims unless he has the goods

 

[Denis R Tandib]

My question was about what was found at the box factory. In a prior post, you stated that if CB was being charged with any offence from findings at the box factory, HCW would have to share all the evidence that was found there.

That doesn’t sound right to me but happy to get your thoughts.

 

[Mex]

All throughout OG have always said they will not give a running commentary something Wolters ought bear in mind.

I am saddened by the fact that there are five indicted cases awaiting trial which have been pushed into the back seat at the moment.

I don’t recall HCW giving out a running commentary on any or all of them. In fact the only new information we have on those is that a witness has come forward in the HB rape case awaiting trial.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

even though he was caught with his trousers down by a police woman

On this, he was arrested by Portuguese police and extradited to Germany.

On two of the rape charges, Portuguese LE weren’t even informed about them.

They failed to solve HB’s attack but I’m sure there are unsolved rape cases in Germany too.

I don’t think the comparison you are making between the PJ and HCW is correct.

 

[mrjitty]

100% IMHO.

Ich will das nicht sagen literally means "I don't want to say that", but depending on the context, a better translation of the intended sense might be "I wouldn't put it like that" or "I wouldn't say that, exactly". It's just how the language goes together, and if you translate directly, you sometimes convey a nuance that's not there.

This is my thought exactly. Because german works differently with wollen, möchten, können, dürfen - i think he likely was heading more in the direction of "i wouldn't like to say that" or even "i'm not allowed to say" but it came out strangely

My favourite example of this is the adjective sogenannt, which literally means "so-called" (so = "so"; genannt = past participle of nennen, "to name", hence "named"; which put together make one word sogenannt = "thus-named" or "so-called"). In German you frequently come across this word - in sentences like die sogenannte 'Romantische Strasse' läuft zwischen Würzburg und Füssen, which is typically then directly translated as "The so-called Romantic Road runs between Würzburg and Füssen'.

The word "so-called" in English has overtones of scepticism, doubt, or derision ("this is my so-called car"), however, that are completely absent from the German word. Sogennant really just has the sense of "often known as", or "sometimes referred to as".

So yes, I wouldn't hang too much off micronuances in what people say in this instance.

Yes exactly.

Having lived here a while you get used to some of these nuances. In fact - i even picked some of them up ...

"I am all the time writing english in a german construction"

 

[Mex]

It makes wonder why HCW behaved as he did, and why he was allowed to do it for so long. They had been investigating CB for three years without anyone knowing and then they not only went public, they went public with very little information. Even if they had learned who phoned his alleged mobile on 3rd May, and had been able to confirm it was him, how would that have helped?

I can only conclude that it was an attempt to cause widespread awareness of their suspicions, which it certainly did. I think they were hoping that the evidence they needed would emerge, but the lack of a charge suggests that it didn't.

I don't think HCW had any say in the matter of how and when the information which compromised CB's confidentiality was released into the public domain.

That choice had been removed from his hands in 2019.

Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #33

Did the prosecution reveal their evidence before jurisdiction was established when indicting CB on the charges. Jurisdiction had already been established by the Judiciary. It's that decision that the defence have challenged, based on their assetion that the box factory counts as a domicile...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Mex]

My question was about what was found at the box factory. In a prior post, you stated that if CB was being charged with any offence from findings at the box factory, HCW would have to share all the evidence that was found there.

That doesn’t sound right to me but happy to get your thoughts.

I'm a bit lost here. Does the box factory feature in any of the five cases with which CB has currently been charged and for which he is awaiting trial?

 

[G-Unit]

U

I think you under estimate the BKA and Wolters. They are ready to go to trial on the 5 cases...which the PJ failed on...even though he was caught with his trousers down by a police woman . I can't see HCM making these claims unless he has the goods

You assume that HCW has 'the goods' and I don't. You seem to be basing your assumption on what he has said, I'm basing mine on what he has achieved three years later. Actions speak louder than words.

 

[mrjitty]

I'm a bit lost here. Does the box factory feature in any of the five cases with which CB has currently been charged and for which he is awaiting trial?

To be fair, we don't know what evidence HCW has in the HB case for example.

 

[misty48]

Before a photograph can be admitted into evidence police have to be sure that it is authentic. Aside from assessing if the image has been digitally altered in any way, the photographer (witness) would need to verify that the image is a true representation of a scene snapped at a particular moment.
If a photo of Madeleine (dead or alive) had been subsequently uploaded from the phone used by CB in May 2007 and later found on one of CB's USB/SD's then imo CB is the only person who can confirm the photo is authentic imo. That places the prosecution is a difficult position.
I think there was a good reason for BKA reportedly revealing that they had a found a photograph, taken in May 2007, of one of CB's girlfriends inside his Westfalia, which adds to the reasons BKA need to place the phone in CB's hands on May 3rd that year.
MOO

 

[Dave55]

On this, he was arrested by Portuguese police and extradited to Germany.

On two of the rape charges, Portuguese LE weren’t even informed about them.

They failed to solve HB’s attack but I’m sure there are unsolved rape cases in Germany too.

I don’t think the comparison you are making between the PJ and HCW is correct.

Have you read how HBs rape case was investigated by the PJ..as I recall when she returned to her apt she found something in her bed..they hadn't even checked it

 

[Dave55]

You assume that HCW has 'the goods' and I don't. You seem to be basing your assumption on what he has said, I'm basing mine on what he has achieved three years later. Actions speak louder than words.

I don't assume anything I make a judgement on the available facts....it's only half time yet.,.don't make an assumption until things are finished.
If you listen to what he says.. everything fits together.
Again from what he has said he wants the result from the other five cases CB is accused of.

I've never heard a spokesman for any investigation make such a claim and be proven wrong

 

[Pixie Child]

Pixie, I’ve been meaning to respond to this, you make some good points.

The point in bold, I think is important. CB became the prime suspect in 2017 from the HB tip-off. Not through data found online. Even the Panikspatz messages were found at the box factory.

So CB didn’t have images of MM on the Casio Elixim when charged in 2013. It seems unlikely he had saved hard copies at the box factory. So if they do exist it would seem that they must have come from the dark web.

CB had the images for many years. If he uploaded them years ago, I can’t understand how such valuable images of a case with such high global interest remained secret - many people would have been able to download them. If he uploaded them close to his 2017 arrest, why did he wait for years?

I am trying to test the theory that HCW has a photo of MM. As yet, I can’t see any strong reason to support it that can’t be explained away with logical reasoning.

Before anyone jumps on me, HCW’s language could be due to his Teutonic phrasing of English and/or he could be being intentionally vague for strategic reasons for the case - very likely IMO given I think his case has severe issues and presenting a position of strength is tactical.

I wouldn’t disagree at all with your assertion that they have no photo. Their entire case may be built on the 2 confessions and inferences from the Panikspatz convo. I think their strategy is to put pressure on him to confess or give up an accomplice.

He confessed twice to non-paedos so he’s not been that careful. If it was a clear video of MM, it would have been identified. If it was darkly lit, no face, no English spoken, it’s possible he passed it around/uploaded it.

BKA will presumably identify every client he had with that particular bent and offer them a deal. They will have to check every clip he had for voice match and birth marks. But teams of European investigators examine all these web videos in detail.

That said, he told Panikspatz he wanted to ‘finally *advertiser censored** a little one’ - like he hadn’t done so already. And then there’s MT telling us he had a plan to sell. Surely he told HB what he did with her.

 

[JB1510]

Posted this not long ago.May last year.

'We DO have new evidence… but we did NOT find fibres in Madeleine McCann suspect's van': German prosecutor DENIES bombshell claim but says new clue points to Christian Brueckner.​

'I was asked if we had found evidence of something of Madeleine McCann in the suspect's van and I replied that I could not speak about the investigation, that's all.

We didn't find Madeleine McCann's clothes fibres, prosecutor says

Hans Christian Wolters, the German prosecutor investigating Maddie's disappearance, sparked rumours of a breakthrough find when he spoke of new evidence during a TV interview this week.

www.dailymail.co.uk

That’s what I said in my original post , I don’t follow what you mean ?

 

[Malleux]

That said, he told Panikspatz he wanted to ‘finally *advertiser censored** a little one’ - like he hadn’t done so already. And then there’s MT telling us he had a plan to sell. Surely he told HB what he did with her.

The comments from MT are certainly interesting. In addition to saying he is convinced CB is responsible for MM's disappearance, he thinks CB most likely tried to sell MM to a paedo ring and claims CB often talked about selling kids to Morocco. It seems logical MT and CB would have had Moroccan connections given their involvement in the hashish trade. CB told MWT that throughout early 2007, he was going back and forth to Spain to buy marijuana and then selling it in back in Portugal. All of which evokes memories of this report published in the early days of MM's disappearance -


Media 'may have scared Madeleine kidnapper'

Police in Portugal believe that Madeleine McCann may be in the hands of a kidnapper who has not issued a ransom demand because of the intense media coverage of her disappearance.

...

Meanwhile it was reported yesterday that the police investigation was refocusing on Morocco after a series of "significant" mobile phone conversations were picked up by the British Government's Communications Headquarters (GCHQ) in Cheltenham.

The calls - all in Arabic and made on a Spanish pay-as-you-go phone - were said to have referred to "the little blonde girl" and were made last week. They talked about Mr and Mrs McCann meeting the Pope.

Intelligence officers also picked up repeated references to a German man, and discussions about Morocco, Holland and Germany.

The Arab-speakers talked about ferry crossings from the Spanish port of Tarifa, three hours from Praia da Luz. There are regular crossings from Tarifa to Tangiers in Morocco.

Media 'may have scared Madeleine kidnapper' | Uk News | News | Telegraph

Get the latest UK news and World news from the Telegraph. Your source for sport news, business news, travel news, motoring news and property news

web.archive.org

Also of possible note is that the article is dated 5th June 2007 and it says the intercepted phone calls were said to have taken place "last week". This coincides with MT's claim that CB turned up at Orgiva in Spain at the end of May/early June to ask MT to hook him up with his "marijuana world" connections.

 

[Davieson]

The comments from MT are certainly interesting. In addition to saying he is convinced CB is responsible for MM's disappearance, he thinks CB most likely tried to sell MM to a paedo ring and claims CB often talked about selling kids to Morocco. It seems logical MT and CB would have had Moroccan connections given their involvement in the hashish trade. CB told MWT that throughout early 2007, he was going back and forth to Spain to buy marijuana and then selling it in back in Portugal. All of which evokes memories of this report published in the early days of MM's disappearance -


Media 'may have scared Madeleine kidnapper'

Police in Portugal believe that Madeleine McCann may be in the hands of a kidnapper who has not issued a ransom demand because of the intense media coverage of her disappearance.

...

Meanwhile it was reported yesterday that the police investigation was refocusing on Morocco after a series of "significant" mobile phone conversations were picked up by the British Government's Communications Headquarters (GCHQ) in Cheltenham.

The calls - all in Arabic and made on a Spanish pay-as-you-go phone - were said to have referred to "the little blonde girl" and were made last week. They talked about Mr and Mrs McCann meeting the Pope.

Intelligence officers also picked up repeated references to a German man, and discussions about Morocco, Holland and Germany.

The Arab-speakers talked about ferry crossings from the Spanish port of Tarifa, three hours from Praia da Luz. There are regular crossings from Tarifa to Tangiers in Morocco.

Media 'may have scared Madeleine kidnapper' | Uk News | News | Telegraph

Get the latest UK news and World news from the Telegraph. Your source for sport news, business news, travel news, motoring news and property news

web.archive.org

Also of possible note is that the article is dated 5th June 2007 and it says the intercepted phone calls were said to have taken place "last week". This coincides with MT's claim that CB turned up at Orgiva in Spain at the end of May/early June to ask MT to hook him up with his "marijuana world" connections.

One question might be why were GCHQ involved, unless it was normal practice to listen in to all conversations in arabic

 

[Malleux]

One question might be why were GCHQ involved, unless it was normal practice to listen in to all conversations in arabic

THE hunt for missing Maddie McCann had last night switched to Morocco again - as cops hunted a mystery German.

It came after British spies made a major breakthrough using a secret hi-tech phonetapping system.

Government spooks eavesdropped on a series of "extremely significant" mobile phone conversations.

The People has learned that the calls - all in Arabic and made on a Spanish pay-as-you-go phone - referred to "the little blonde girl".

The calls also referred to four-year-old Maddie's parents Kate and Gerry McCann meeting the Pope last week.

Intelligence officers from the Government's Communications Headquarters in Cheltenham, Gloucs, picked-up repeated references to a German man, and discussions about Morocco, Holland and Germany.

...

A source close to the investigation revealed: "The information gleaned from these mobile phone calls is being treated very seriously. It could be extremely significant." Staff at GCHQ deployed the Echelon spy system.

It listens out for key words and phrases used in phone conversations, then monitors them.

The source said: "It's an incredible intelligence resource.

It can process three million electronic communications a minute. Pay-as-you-go phones are unregistered and hard to trace, so that is frustrating.

MADELEINE: GERMAN HUNTED IN MOROCCO

EXCLUSIVE: Missing Maddie breakthrough by British phone spies; Call about 'little blonde girl'

www.mirror.co.uk