Maglite

[BBB167893]

If it was the flashlight then you had to have Hulk Hogan in the house that night.

(As Hulk Hogan): No way, brother! Ask Linda, the Mistress of the Universe!

 

[UKGuy]

UkGuy,
The whack on the head could not have been inflicted as 'post-mortem' staging, since it caused bleeding in JB's brain. But dead victims don't bleed anymore.

rashomon,
The blood on her brain may have been the result of pooling under gravity?

The sequence of JonBenet's injuries are not something, for me, that are important to deciding if she was killed deliberately. I would adjust my theory to include any new evidence.

But dead victims don't bleed anymore.

So if you hold to your own quote, does it follow that you consider that JonBenet was the victim of a sexual assault prior to her death, taking into account Coroner Meyer's autopsy findings?

e.g.

On the anterior aspect of the perineum, along the edges of
closure of the labia majora, is a small amount of dried blood. A
similar small amount of dried and semifluid blood is present on
the skin of the fourchette and in the vestibule. Inside the
vestibule of the vagina and along the distal vaginal wall is
reddish hyperemia.

.

 

[BlueCrab]

The whack on the head could not have been inflicted as 'post-mortem' staging, since it caused bleeding in JB's brain. But dead victims don't bleed anymore.

rashomon,

There was no bleeding in or on the brain. The 7 to 8 cc's of blood was residual blood (distributed throughout the body); it's there all the time, alive or dead.

The lack of bleeding suggests the strangulation came first and the hit on the head came last, probably post-mortem.

BlueCrab

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

There was no bleeding in or on the brain. The 7 to 8 cc's of blood was residual blood (distributed throughout the body); it's there all the time, alive or dead.

The lack of bleeding suggests the strangulation came first and the hit on the head came last, probably post-mortem.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

there was far more blood in JB's brain than the 7-8cc which Cyril Wecht mentioned.
From the autopsy report:

Skull and Brain: Upon reflection of the scalp there is found
to be an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage along the right
temporoparietal area extending from the orbital ridge,
posteriorly all the way to the occipital area. This
encompasses an area measuring approximately 7x4 inches. This
grossly appears to be fresh hemorrhage with no evidence of
organization. At the superior extension of the is area of
hemorrhage is a linear to comminuted skull fracture which
extends from the right occipital to posteroparietal area
forward to the right frontal area across the parietal skull.
In the posteroparietal area of this fracture is a roughly
rectangular shaped displaced fragment of skull measuring one
and three-quarters by one-half inch. The hemorrhage and the
fracture extend posteriorly just past the midline of the
occipital area of the skull. This fracture measures
approximately 8.5 inches in length. On removal of the skull
cap there is found to be a thin film of subdural hemorrhage
measuring approximately 7-8 cc over the surface of the right
cerebral hemisphere and extending to the base of the cerebral
hemisphere. The 1450 gm brain has a normal overall
architecture. Mild narrowing of the sulci and flattening of
the gyri are seen. No inflammation is identified. There is a
thin film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire
right cerebral hemisphere. On the right cerebral hemisphere
underlying the previously mentioned linear skull fracture is
an extensive linear area of purple contusion extending from
the right frontal area, posteriorly along the lateral aspect
of the parietal region and into the occipital area. This area
of contusion measures 8 inches in length with a width of up
to 1.75 inches. At the tip of the right temporal lobe is a
one-quarter by one-quarter inch similar appearing purple
contusion. Only very minimal contusion is present at the tip
of the left temporal lobe. This area of contusion measures
only one-half inch in maximum dimension. The cerebral
vasculature contains no evidence of atherosclerosis. Multiple
coronal sections of the cerebral hemispheres, brain stem and
cerebellum disclose no additional abnormalities. The areas of
previously described contusion are characterized by purple
linear streak-like discolorations of the gray matter
perpendicular to the surface of the cerebral cortex. These
extend approximately 5mm into the cerebral cortex.
Examination of the base of the brain discloses no additional
fractures.
Brain: Sections from the areas of contusion disclose
disrupted blood vessels of the cortex with surrounding
hemorrhage. There is no evidence of the inflammatory infitrate or organizationof thehemorrhage. Subarachnoid
hemorrhage is also identified. Cortical neurons are surrounded
by clear halos, as are glial cells

I also doubt that the 7-8 ccm of blood are residual blood, since Dr. Meyer called it a 'hemorrhage'. Also, if this was blood which is there all the time, I don't think that the coroner would have mentioned it specifically.

Bottom line: all that bleeding and the contusions could not have happened if JB had already been dead from strangulation before. Even diehard IDIs on other forums meanwhile agree that the head injury came first.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,
The blood on her brain may have been the result of pooling under gravity?

The sequence of JonBenet's injuries are not something, for me, that are important to deciding if she was killed deliberately. I would adjust my theory to include any new evidence.

So if you hold to your own quote, does it follow that you consider that JonBenet was the victim of a sexual assault prior to her death, taking into account Coroner Meyer's autopsy findings?

e.g.

UkGuy,

Dr. Meyer mostly spoke of 'fresh hemorrhage' (see my prior post with the excerpt from the autopsy report). Wouldn't this contradict a pooled blood scenario?

So if you hold to your own quote, does it follow that you consider that JonBenet was the victim of a sexual assault prior to her death, taking into account Coroner Meyer's autopsy findings?

No. I believe that the vaginal injury was inflicted for staging purposes by a parent who had no 'forensic awareness' whatsoever due to being in a panicked and confused state of mind when staging the scene, or also due to lack of medical knowledge, i. e. this person my not have known that dead persons (normally) don't bleed. I believe they thought JB was already dead when inflicting this injury.
It is a valid question to ask why these parents then put underwear on the child if they wanted to stage a sex crime. I think that the Ramseys later switched to a kidnapping scenario and that is why they put the underwear on JB. They left the garrote not because they wanted to mask manual strangulation, but because investigators should believe that no parent would garrote their child, only a sexaul predator would do this.
Imo all that confused staging, with the silly ransom note, the poorly tied garrote etc. points exactly to this not being a planned murder, but a rage attack flollowed by a frantic cover-up.
For If John Ramsey actually planned to murder JB, this was the stupidest date he could choose: shortly after arriving home from a Christmas party late at night and a few hours before the family had a scheduled flight to Michigan. This is an extremely narrow time frame. I believe if JR had indeed planned to kill JB, he would not have done it that way at all.

BTW, remember that Dr. Meyer only spoke of 'abrasion' when mentioning the mark on JB's neck below the ligature, and not of contusion. Another indicator that no manual strangulation had occurred.

 

[UKGuy]

UkGuy,

Dr. Meyer mostly spoke of 'fresh hemorrhage' (see my prior post with the excerpt from the autopsy report). Wouldn't this contradict a pooled blood scenario?
No. I believe that the vaginal injury was inflicted for staging purposes by a parent who had no 'forensic awareness' whatsoever due to being in a panicked and confused state of mind when staging the scene, or also due to lack of medical knowledge, i. e. this person my not have known that dead persons (normally) don't bleed. I believe they thought JB was already dead when inflicting this injury.
It is a valid question to ask why these parents then put underwear on the child if they wanted to stage a sex crime. I think that the Ramseys later switched to a kidnapping scenario and that is why they put the underwear on JB. They left the garrote not because they wanted to mask manual strangulation, but because investigators should believe that no parent would garrote their child, only a sexaul predator would do this.
Imo all that confused staging, with the silly ransom note, the poorly tied garrote etc. points exactly to this not being a planned murder, but a rage attack flollowed by a frantic cover-up.
For If John Ramsey actually planned to murder JB, this was the stupidest date he could choose: shortly after arriving home from a Christmas party late at night and a few hours before the family had a scheduled flight to Michigan. This is an extremely narrow time frame. I believe if JR had indeed planned to kill JB, he would not have done it that way at all.

BTW, remember that Dr. Meyer only spoke of 'abrasion' when mentioning the mark on JB's neck below the ligature, and not of contusion. Another indicator that no manual strangulation had occurred.

rashomon,

You may be correct regarding it being staging and the stager's lack of forensic awareness wrt the blood?

I am not so convinced since elements of the staging and evidence seem to contradict this view.

Who ever said John Ramsey planned to kill JonBenet, I would contend that her killer deliberately killed her, she was intended not to wake up and speak!

Regarding the marks to the left and right lying underneath the ligature I have referred to these as compressed abrasion marks, since these are these are nearly always seen when a piece of clothing has been employed in manually strangling someone, otherwise each ligature leaves its own notable furrow!

 

[JMO8778]

For If John Ramsey actually planned to murder JB, this was the stupidest date he could choose: shortly after arriving home from a Christmas party late at night and a few hours before the family had a scheduled flight to Michigan. This is an extremely narrow time frame. I believe if JR had indeed planned to kill JB, he would not have done it that way at all.

I don't know,what if that was the last chance he had b/f the trip the next day? That is not to say I think he did it though.
When would have been a better time, Xmas eve,or sometime,(anytime) B/f Xmas?

 

[JMO8778]

Regarding the marks to the left and right lying underneath the ligature I have referred to these as compressed abrasion marks, since these are these are nearly always seen when a piece of clothing has been employed in manually strangling someone, otherwise each ligature leaves its own notable furrow!

I agree with that,esp since it's thought she was manually strangled with a shirt collar first.

 

[UKGuy]

I agree with that,esp since it's thought she was manually strangled with a shirt collar first.

JMO8778,

I'm not sure what was used but some kind of fabric caused those abrasions, once you see a few in victims, resulting from the use of bra's, stockings, and scarves, its not to difficult to recognize similar features, particularly in case like JonBenet's where post-mortem pictures are available.



.

 

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab,

there was far more blood in JB's brain than the 7-8cc which Cyril Wecht mentioned.
From the autopsy report:

I also doubt that the 7-8 ccm of blood are residual blood, since Dr. Meyer called it a 'hemorrhage'. Also, if this was blood which is there all the time, I don't think that the coroner would have mentioned it specifically.

Bottom line: all that bleeding and the contusions could not have happened if JB had already been dead from strangulation before. Even diehard IDIs on other forums meanwhile agree that the head injury came first.

rashomon,

The estimated 7 to 8 cc's of blood on the brain was residual blood, it consisted of a thin film, and it constitutes all of the blood on the brain, including the hemorrhages. There was no bleeding.

BlueCrab

 

[Tober]

Of course, John Ramsey can easily help show that the flashlight in evidence isn't the Ramsey's and that there may actually have been an intruder in the home that night by producing the flashlight JAR gave him as a gift. He won't do that though, because there was no intruder and the flashlight in evidence is the Ramsey's. The fact that they wouldn't admit it was theirs is a supporting factor (among others) that it is the weapon that caused JonBenet's head injury.

 

[JMO8778]

Of course, John Ramsey can easily help show that the flashlight in evidence isn't the Ramsey's and that there may actually have been an intruder in the home that night by producing the flashlight JAR gave him as a gift. He won't do that though, because there was no intruder and the flashlight in evidence is the Ramsey's. The fact that they wouldn't admit it was theirs is a supporting factor (among others) that it is the weapon that caused JonBenet's head injury.

I think so, too.He went to the airport the day b/f,so he could have easily stated he used it then,wore gloves while he was carrying it,and left it on the counter when he came back in.

 

[rashomon]

Delmar England's opinion re the object which strucK JB (bolding mine)

However, considering all of the physics even in
general, the limited head of a flashlight with protrusions concentrating the
force and sorely limiting energy distribution could not possibly account for
the dislodged skull fragment in conjunction with extensive fracture lines in
severity and distance. For that much energy to be distributed over that much
area of a dome without lacerating the scalp, the object of contact could not
have had anything even remotely resembling a cutting edge. A heavy, flat
cutting board is a possibility. So is a heavy iron skillet. However, in
weighing all the variables, the highest probability, is that the head was
not struck with a moving object, rather a moving head struck a stationery
object of a flat, or nearly flat surface.

...

There was a photo of Dr. Spitz holding a flashlight near a skull and
claiming this was the murder weapon because the flashlight fit the hole
perfectly. If memory serves, the autopsy report was a rectangular section
that was dislodged. How does a round-headed flashlight "fit" a rectangular
opening? Also, in soft clay, the indentation may match the object of cause,
but object matching effect on a rigid, domed skull is utter nonsense; yet
again and again is Dr. Spitz's "experiment" touted as conclusive evidence.

...

Compression with lines of less resistance yielding to the force. Whether
were talking about a stone boulder or a skull, every "line area" is not of
equal strength. A given force will create an energy radiation pattern
consistent with angle and amount of energy released in conjunction with
time; that is, the speed of the object of contact. Within this pattern,
"line areas" that are the weakest will yield to the force. If that
pronounced weakness is generally rectangular in shape, that is what first
and most drastically yields to the force.

Also, no skull is perfectly symmetrical. There are peaks and valleys. In
addition to the general dome shape that affects energy distribution, a peak
or valley also affect energy distribution. If contact is on a peak,
the force lines with radiate from that peak to be more concentrated and more
forceful in a lesser area than would be if contact was on a perfect globe
structure. I don't know if this was the contact situation, but either way
the shape of the piece dislodged most certainly does not have to fit the
shape of the object of contact. In fact, it is virtually certain this is
impossible. (Recall the soft clay illustration.)

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

The estimated 7 to 8 cc's of blood on the brain was residual blood, it consisted of a thin film, and it constitutes all of the blood on the brain, including the hemorrhages. There was no bleeding.

BlueCrab

BC, there was bleeding. Read my #24 post with the excerpts from the sutopsy report.

 

[Nehemiah]

A police issue maglite as what has been described in the Ramsey case in 1996 was a 6D flashlight.

Also I'm reading posts where the flashlight was supposed to be rubber coated??

Maglite does not make rubber coated flashlights. It has a rubber switch and a grip in the center of the stem but not rubber coated. Can someone direct me to a link that depicts a rubber-coated flashlight?

http://www.maglite.com/history.asp

I think you are correct, Credence. I contacted the Maglite company via email about rubber coatings and received this reply "Maglite does not come with a rubber coating and never has had one."

 

[Solace]

BC, there was bleeding. Read my #24 post with the excerpts from the sutopsy report.

There was bleeding.

 

[BBB167893]

Three different areas of it.

 

[JMO8778]

Delmar England's opinion re the object which strucK JB (bolding mine)

thx !