Discussion in 'Luka Rocco Magnotta AKA Eric Newman' started by ChelleBelle, Apr 3, 2013.
Oh good - we now have a thread just for LM's diagnosis. How cool is that?
Here is a good piece with Charles Adler and Ross McLean, talking about a possible NCR case for Magnotta.
They bring up the good point that in order to get an NCR ruling, per Section 16 of the Canadian Criminal Code - it has to be proven that the person;
suffering from a mental disorder; and,
unable to appreciate the "nature and quality" of the act, or
did not know it was "wrong"
2 and 3 will be a hard sell for Luka's defence. Did he know it was "wrong" when he fled the country and went on the run for over a week before getting caught?
Did he know it was "wrong" when the Berlin police found him the cafe and he declared "You got me" ?
It's really going to be a long shot, I think.
It's my understanding of Schizophrenics when they are in a 'psychotic break' are really not very cognizant of their actions and surroundings, nor highly functioning enough to sequence the thoughts and planning involved in something like fleeing the country and international travel.
Vincent Li, when apprehended, was so out of it he didn't even know his name. He could barely string a coherent sentence together. Yet, Luka manged to get himself through airport security, donning a wig no less, on an international flight without anyone raising an eyebrow for suspicious or unusual behaviour.
I realize there's varying degrees of psychosis, and what Li experienced was a "first break" which is generally the most severe. The homicide rates among Schizophrenics are often broken down to whether or not it was a first break, and if there was concurrent drug or alcohol abuse as those factors skews the data substantially.
It will be interesting. A lot of eyes will be on this trial.
Quoted from ChelleBelle:
suffering from a mental disorder; and,
unable to appreciate the "nature and quality" of the act, or
did not know it was "wrong"
Well, #1 has been pretty much made obvious by the Rouge Valley Hospital and various psychiatrists.
#2. (I don't mean to be fighting here; just playing devil's advocate!!) - I'm worried sick that someone will come along (a psychiatrist) and tell us that LM was so far into mental illness that he couldn't POSSIBLY have understood the harm of his actions. (Please pray that I'm wrong!!) lease:
#3. Again, devil's advocate here - perhaps another set of psychiatrists will come along and testify that LM has no knowledge of good vs. evil.
Bottom Line = I'm getting worried sick about finding justice for Jun Lin. :rose: And some closure for his dear family!! :rose:
Well, I wasn't exactly shocked by the info r.e. schizophrenia. I think we all expected he had some kind of mental illness. I think it explains SOME of his behaviour i.e. showing up to that lawyer and claiming he was being abused, etc. However, I don't think it explains the actual deviant behaviour at all. I also don't think that it will affect a jury's decision about whether he was in control of his own behaviour or not. JMO
matou as one of the original post-murder Magnotta sleuths, like myself, do you find Magnotta potentially capable of faking schizophrenia?
I ask this not to trivialize those who have been diagnosed with it and work hard to manage their condition, but I ask this with knowledge of Magnotta's online world. Considering the countless hours Magnotta devoted to creating, managing and adding personification to each of his characters and developing a structure where each character helped to create the illusion of Magnotta being a wealthy, world traveler who was either famous or infamous (depending on the audience).
With the loss of those characters in conjunction with the loss of internet access upon his arrest; is it not likely that Magnotta simply transfers the details of his characters to exist only in his mind in order to convincingly utilize his characters to convincingly demonstrate to a psychiatrist evaluating him that he is likely suffering from schizophrenia when in reality he's simply doing what he does best: lie convincingly to advance his personal goals.
Why would he fake it though? To get away with hurting and killing animals? To get famous for killing Lin Jun? I don't think getting meds would be a factor either. I'm trying to remember something about him going to the hospital and him being held there. I think it was something he wrote about in one of his blogs and I can't remember under which name he was posting as. I think a family member was involved in his hospitalization, his mother? Did she abandon him at the hospital or something? Maybe I'm remembering another case LOL.
I wonder what Baudi Moovan would think about him faking it? She was after him for a long time and has a better sense of things, I would think. If anything, I wonder if he was misdiagnosed. To me, he is sociopathic. JMO
Good points, but the fact he tried to dispose of the body then fled the country won't bode well for him. If he didn't understand what he did was wrong, why would he run away?
Richard Kachkar knowingly murdered Toronto police officer Ryan Russell, attempted to flee the scene , admitted later to doing it but claimed he didn't know what he was doing. Had a history of mental illness, Had 3 psychiatrists testify on his behalf, and was found NCR. The selling point is you come in and out of these episodes at times. So... (devil's advocate) you wake up in the morning to a bloodbath in your apartment, of course you're going to clean it up (or half-ass clean it up in this case). Yet you have no memory of the murder, the mailing of parcels , so let's hop a flight to Euro for vacation to clear the mind. Maybe they don't come out of the episode until they're on the way to the airport to buy the ticket. (on a side note, I'm eagerly anxious to know when that 2-way flight to Paris was BOOKED) .
Just throwin' it out there ... this is what goes on now in the courts. Right, Wrong or somewhere inbetween ... it's an endless debate.
It is likely that he has multiple diagnosis, which will come out later in court. I hate to say it, but there's a very good chance that he will receive sympathy and leniency because of his history. This is a clear cut case of someone who has been mentally unstable for many years, all the warning signs were there and essentially ignored, and what could have been (and was) predicted by many unfolded just as anyone would have guessed. I think his lawyers will paint a picture of this poor, unfortunate, mentally ill kid who had no emotional support, who when left to his own devices made a series of increasingly bad choices and decisions, and this is where it lead - his family, doctors, LE, and society are all to blame for essentially sitting back and watching it happen. Frankly, I see no other angle of defence.
It's the NCR result of the Kachkar case in Toronto which has me leary about LM's case.
Kachkar deliberately stole the snow plow and went on to kill a police officer. He must have known what he was doing when he stole the snow plow! And yet - NCR!!
You remember correctly, I also had to think about this post immediately. He made the original post on wordpress (username: lotusbomb) but it got deleted by now. However, I found a blog in which LM's post has been copied and pasted:
Yes, he did it deliberately but he did it with bare feet in the winter time! He was really out of it at the time and it was done spontaneously, IMO. I don't see this as the same with LM. There was real planning in what he did. JMO
OMG! Thank you! LOL, I follow so many cases that I worry that I get the details mixed up. I'll be reading this later! xo
I'm really surprised that Magnotta wasn't diagnosed with narcissistic (or antisocial) personality disorder at any point. He has a giant and unwarranted sense of self-importance, is obsessed with fame, is obsessed with his looks, has no empathy, exaggerates his achievements, cannot handle rejection, is arrogant, requires a lot of praise, feels entitled to things, is very self-centered, believes he's special, thinks he's superior and special... I'm no doctor but those are big red flags.
It also depends on whether the schizophrenic is being treated for his disorder. It's been shown that schizophrenics (or anyone with a serious mental illness, for that matter) are no more dangerous than the general population so long as they're in treatment and not using drugs/alcohol. Going by statistics, you're several times more likely to be struck by lightning than be killed by a schizophrenic stranger.
I hear ya, but my husband and I were talking about this after the Kachkar verdict. Here's a made-up scenario:
- let's say my best friend murders me (planned well in advance)
- then in the cold of January he runs naked and jumps into Lake Ontario
- he crawls out of the lake and steals a cop car
- then drives himself (naked and freezing) to Burger King
- calmly eats a burger and a milkshake
- the cops finally locate my best friend and me
I know that sounds far-fetched......BUT could my completely sane friend plead insanity........AND GET AN NCR VERDICT? :what:
I'm finding a very fine line between NCR and guilty these days.
In my made-up scenario, my SANE friend tells the court that his deep belief in God and Punishment MADE HIM DO IT!! He had NO CHOICE because of his belief in God.
I'm with you matou, he's the worst kind of sociopath.
As far as why Magnotta would fake schizophrenia now, it's simple: he believes he can go the mental hospital route and thinks that after time passes he'll emerge from there and upon his release he'll be in every paper and on every channel.
Will this happen? No chance.
However remember with Magnotta every character serves a specific purpose and everything is carefully orchestrated to advance one thing and one thing only: Lukas Rocco Magnotta.
I can't believe he's schizophrenic simply because his online and past real world life is all about being a master of control and manipulation. Magnotta was skilled at managing and controlling each character and was quite organized in this effort with all of his characters working to achieve the outcome that Magnotta desired.
He's well organized and a master manipulator. Is he a sociopath? He seems to fit the characteristics. Is he schizophrenic or just utilizing his organization skills to utilize his characters to convincingly pass for one? I suspect the latter, but I am absolutely sure that whatever Magnotta is doing it is only to benefit himself.
We don't know that he hasn't. I would be very, very surprised if he didn't have NPD, whether it's been diagnosed or not.
I'm with you. I'm having a hard time buying this Schizophrenia diagnosis. By definition, they are usually more of a danger to themselves than anyone else. Sure, they can be homicidal if gone untreated and the hallucinations/break is very bad, and those are the ones we hear about (Vincent Li, James Holmes), but that's not the norm. The Kachkar case in Toronto was such BS.
I don't know what the testing is like for a schizo diagnosis these days, but I think the Psychological evaluation portion of the workup could be pretty subjective... especially when dealing with a master manipulator like Luka.
I don't think Magnotta suffers from Schizophrenia at all. I think he's personality disordered.
I find even the suggestion to be absurd. (sorry). Schizophrenia may be sometimes difficult to diagnose (usually because the patient isn't cooperative) - but the people who do diagnose and treat it are medical professionals.
His original diagnosis did mitigate the length of his sentence in a previous charge - but didn't excuse the charge. No reason to believe it will have any impact this time (aside from mitigating factors in a sentencing hearing).
My understanding of the NCR rule - it's there to protect people suffering from a mental disease from being unjustly punished for what they have no control over, and - when / if treated for the mental illness would not have committed the crime.
There is a distinct difference between something like a personality disorder (narcissistic was mentioned above), and schizophrenia.
Schizophrenia is a physical disease - a brain disorder. It can be inherited or isolated. The disease causes noticeable behavioral symptoms that usually begin to appear post-adolescence, early adulthood. The behaviours, however, are not the problem, they are just what most people notice. The problem is physical - it's within the brain. It's treated with medications - (with a lot of success). There is no cure. It will never go away.
When a schizophrenic patient is off their medication they may eventually enter a "break with reality" and hallucinate - hear things and see people who aren't there, experience paranoid delusions and extreme terror.
If they commit an criminal act because of those delusions - they are "not criminally responsible" - but, depending on the crime, may be institutionalized regardless. Once back on medication, most schizophrenics are typically ashamed and embarrassed of their behavior (non criminal) or (criminal - as seen with the Greyhound beheading case), extremely remorseful, ridden with guilt as any normal, non-criminal would be.
Having schizophrenia is not a license to commit crimes though. People with schizophrenia can be convicted the same as people without.
So I would imagine that this case will first deal with whether Magnota committed his crimes while in a schizophrenic break, and as a direct result of that break. Or if he did it because he wanted to. As far as we've all heard - he wasn't hospitalized or placed in medical care after his arrest - and that would have happened if he was in a break. Also he has a past criminal record so he does have a history of committing crimes not related to his disease.
He's clearly very, very dangerous. IMO there's no place on our streets for that monster.