Manorville Butcher ** ONLY **

Discussion in 'Long Island Serial Killer' started by Seaslug44, Jun 13, 2012.

  1. Seaslug44

    Seaslug44 New Member

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    I would like to start this discussion to expand upon Peter's theory that there is a torso killer on the loose (aka the Manorville Butcher).

    Let's keep this discussion limited only to the victims who were found dismembered with their body parts scattered at different locations (such as Jessica Taylor). I feel that if we can cultivate a logical discussion without including any mention of SG, the GB4, the Asian, etc... then we can slueth these crimes with a clear mind.

    So just for this thread let us make the assumption that there at least two or more killers on the loose and only focus upon the one killer who murdered Jessica Taylor, Jane Doe #6 & Jane Doe #7. We can almost be positive that Jane Doe #6 and Jessica taylor were both the victims of the same killer because both of them had their torso's found in Manorville and other body parts found at Gilgo. Jane Doe #7's legs were found on the beach at Davis Park and her skull was found at Gilgo. Her torso is still missing. It is my theory that her torso is somewhere in those woods in Manorville yet to be found (this would then link her to the same killer 100%).

    Jessica Taylor
    [​IMG]

    Jane Doe #6
    [​IMG]

    Jane Doe #7
    [​IMG]

    So please, no posts debating whether or not you think these three murders are linked to the other Gilgo cases or whether or not they are the work of a single LISK or multiple killers. We have a theory thread elsewhere for those debates (if you don't want to consider the possibility that there is this torso-only killer on the loose and you want to follow Dormer's theory that "serial killers evolve" then just please simply ignore this discussion).

    For those of you who want to take a shot at exploring this possibilty, please let's hear what you think.
     
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  3. Seaslug44

    Seaslug44 New Member

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    I am pretty sure we can add Jane Doe #8 to this list as victim number four of the killer.

    -Source

    -Source

    -Source
     
  4. Seaslug44

    Seaslug44 New Member

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    Jane Doe 6, 7 & 8 are part of what is being called "The Gilgo Five (the Asian male and the toddler are considered the other two).
     
  5. Seaslug44

    Seaslug44 New Member

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    The only problem with possibly linking Jane Doe #8 is that

    1) We are only told her remains were "a bag of bones" but we are not told whether or not they were the bones of severed body parts, her entire body or her torso).

    2) We were later told that DNA has linked Jane Doe #8 as most likely being the mother of the Toddler;

    -Source

    We know that the toddler's body was found intact and wrapped in a blanket. I am going to need someone like Peter who has more knowledge about torso killers to let us know whether or not it could be likely that a torso killer would murder a young child (when all of his other victims are adult females) and whether or not a torso killer would wrap a child in a blanket whole like that???
     
  6. SmoothOperator

    SmoothOperator Sadly what connects all these puzzles is that ther

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    So Jane Doe 8 and toddler were killed and placed there between 2006-2010.. and we have no further descriptors than they're listed as NoN Caucasian? .. i wish they wouldve atleast narrowed that down to African-American, Asian or Hispanic for instance as IMO they know which specific Non Caucasian group they are. Wouldn't they?

    Would someone remind me what year Jessica Taylor went missing and what are the approximate years for when Jane Doe 6&7's remains were disposed of?

    TiA. :)
     
  7. sean62185

    sean62185 New Member

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    Peter knows more about this than I. Maybe Manorville felt guilty about having to kill the child. I often hear, SK's are disgusted by other SK's that hurt children. That's why she was wrapped in a blanket. He had to kill the child possibly, because he has a family he couldn't take her too. Or even if he doesn't have a family, people he may know, neighbors or whoever would find it highly suspicious that he just shows up with a 2 year old.

    I think be didn't wanna do it, but he had no other choice. I could be wrong but, imo it makes sense. I do wonder if he maybe switched up his tactics. Were the remains in GB found it garbage bags? Why are we crediting these plastic garbage bag murders with a torso killer? Was JT's torso wrapped in a garbage bag? Or was it out in the open. I wonder if he switched his tactic in the way he disposses them?

    Because, why would he leave just the one torso in the middle of a walking path, that would be found.. But hasn't done it sense. Just the one time. I do believe there are 2 different killers. But I a lot of unexplained stuff going on with Manorville.
     
  8. Seaslug44

    Seaslug44 New Member

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    The legs of Jane Doe #7 were found wrapped in plastic too. So this is how I am making the connection.

    -Source
     
  9. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    Hi,

    just found this thread, thanks to Seaslug.

    I have a list of general hints about this kind of unsub, some problems and I'm still hanging with. Lets start with the general things:

    - Torso Killers or Staging Dismemberers are not new, in fact, it is one of the older types of SK. I have cases going back till 12th century. Of course back then people didn't take lose body parts that serious, but still.

    - Typically torsos are staged, most of the time wrapped in what is at hand, to pull attention.

    - Torso killers are usually not verbal in the direct contact. Means, while they are anonymous, they use parts of their victims as statement "I am here, look what I can do". So their main interest is control and "to be someone". Newer cases of torso killers showed also a rather unhealthy tendency to use the internet as show platform, since the anonymity gives them some kind of boldness. Very at the fringes, you can find for example a guy like Magnotta as an example for that.

    - The typical torso killer type has a very slow kill rate and it stays almost constant, means, they have no ramp up phases like the classical sexual psychopath or an OCD type SK. One per year or even one all two years are normal.

    - The dismembering normally starts peri-mortem as in it is basically the COD. However, typically in torso killer cases, there will be no sign of sexual assault, not even if the bodies are found in hours after death.

    So far the general picture. Where I hang is the victimology. In other torso killer cases, the unsubs had some type of close victimology. Usually street corner prostitutes, usuall either same size, same hair color or all long hair, something they have optically in common. I have not enough pictures to see if the victim show such a pattern in this case.

    His hunting ground would be also limited. Basically the area where Jessica Taylor solicited her business. Unfortunately, I have no idea where that would be.

    He could be lured out of cover, if he would think, he could get the LISK. The LISK stole his show (so he feels it) and thus, the LISK is someone, whe would like to dismember and spreading all over town, even LISK is no girl. So, where do I find a LISK to bait a Manorville?

    Manorville has maybe commited already his first and second mistake. He hunts in the dark in a bad lighted red light district. He probably really thought this transvestite was a woman. When he found out, he lost control. So, he would also show in his normal life a degree of rage against transvestites (not necessarily against openly gay persons). I would write that in a profile, but how to get it out?

    - He also got a victim and her daughter as it looks. If she is really one of his and not unrelated, he must have known her off the skid row. So this identification is important. Only how?

    Those are my 2 cents so far.
     
  10. Seaslug44

    Seaslug44 New Member

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    Thank you Peter for that insight. With that line of thinking I agree with you on adding John Doe #8 (Asian cross-dresser) to the list of victims. That would basically make the entire Gilgo Five (plus of course Jessica Taylor) the victims of a single SK bringing his total known victims to SIX!

    John Doe #8:

    [​IMG]

    -Source
     
  11. Seaslug44

    Seaslug44 New Member

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    By the way, I keep getting asked so I'll post it here for those who missed it;

    GILGO FIVE (G5) = THE FIVE UNIDENTIFIED VICTIMS FOUND ALONG OCEAN PARKWAY
     
  12. Seaslug44

    Seaslug44 New Member

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    So G5 + JT are those we are considering to be the work of a single torso killer.

    Question Peter- why do you suppose he didn't butcher the transvestite?

    Could he have been that disgusted and caught off guard?

    Does the thought of handling a transvestite's remains turn his stomach?
     
  13. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    I have no 100% prove, but yes, the Asian male would fit his mindset. He doesn't get what he wants and he gets really nasty. However, I think, if we look far enough backwards, we will find more. They don't start out staging, at first they spread only. Since JD6 was already placed near a hunter's path, I don't think, that was his first.
     
  14. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    His victims have a meaning for him. Not as persons but as statements. The cross dresser didn't fulfill his criteria by what he selects his victims. And that made him angry. Blunt force trauma is most of the times rage or power gain. And I think, this guy is since years over his power gain stage. So bottom line, in his twisted logic, this Asian didn't "deserve" to be treated the same way as his victims.
    On another side note, remember that tattoo "Remy's Angels" on JT? It would have been easy to simply cut it out, instead, he made like dozens of parallel cuts. This guy is all about statements without explanation. That is his way to appear strong, powerful, mysterious. Wouldn't make me wonder when he is caught, to find "Dorian Gray" or Bram Stoker's "Dracula" in his book shelf.
     
  15. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    Just after I pressed "Post" I wondered. He has for sure studied some classics and also other SKs, especially those rumored to have committed necrophilia. However, chances are, his income is not so terrible high (don't interpret that as "menial job or all the time changing, but he would chose his profession already in early youth rather by reputation than income chances).
    So, what does a reader do who has not enough money? Public library! My bet, he has a public library card and in the list of the books, he borrowed probably

    - true crime, especially Anne Rule's Monster beside me (several times), maybe also Keppel's book about Ridgway. And for sure, he either bought or borrowed The Complete Jack the Ripper.

    - novels with dark mysterious strangers in him

    Basically the same would go for his movie selection (although, he would have given up on Dexter latest with the second season:floorlaugh:)
     
  16. sean62185

    sean62185 New Member

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    Hey, Peter

    Can you also touch on your theory of manorville possibly being a team? I think I asked you about the reasoning behind, but am not sure I understand. You had said some pattern change. Its an interesting theory. But what pattern specificly changed? I just want to know the reasoning behind it. Also how does a partner change the dynamic in SK cases, specifically the torso cases but I guess in general. Would it amp up the violence of the crimes? It seems in abduction cases having 2 or even 3 guys collaborating makes abductions extremely easy. Drive up open the side van door, snatch and go.
     
  17. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    Admittedly, I am not sure about it. So keep that part with a grain of salt. What I noticed is, that the popping up of body parts went back much longer than just 2000. For example there were the legs found at Fire Island in 1996. I am not sure how they were connected or if at all, but under the assumption, they maybe were, we have a change and a back-change in 2000 till 2003.
    Before, we had no staging, or at least none that I'm aware of. JD6's torso was put out in the open in trash bags along a way, hunters passed basically every day. That it took still months till somebody wondered about that trash bag isn't the killer's fault. The Killer assumed, hunters would be more observant.
    So in 2003, with JT's body, Manorville got clearer. This time, he chose a pile of sticks on a path, where he would know, someone walked his dog regularly. And to make sure, right near the local illegal trash deposit. So while the rest of the MO remained the same, the staging of JT's body gives away far more knowledge not only of the place but also people who live there. Or in other words, after messing up in 2000 by the assumption hunter's would be observant, in 2003 another hand took over, either personally or with detailed instructions, how to get this job done. But the idea of detailed instructions indicate someone, who gives them and someone who receives them. So I was thinking that dynamic through.

    - more than most other types of SKs a staging dismemberer would have reason to take in a junior partner. Mostly because he would get an audience during the killing/dismembering.

    - the few staging dismemberers who got caught (and yes, they are a pain to catch because of the slow kill frequency and their tendency to spread out one victim over several jurisdictions), were all a little older when they started. That explains the high level of organization for that type, the patience and the control they show even they are obviously often rage-driven in their motives. But it also means, they are often (often referring to in this small group) 40, even almost 50 when they start. Which would place the senior partner today at least in the age bracket 45-55, if not older. So one of the reasons to take in a junior partner would be simply to get some help with the heavy lifting and yes, over the years this would also include part of the hunt.

    The junior partner would be a wannabe in his own rights. A psychopath or sociopath, easily 20 years younger. Likely but not absolute necessarily, a male. He would be in daily life shy and a bit weird. Like socially awkward. His satisfaction would come from the knowledge to be something, he also imagines as something mysterious and dangerous. Not the loser, he is in daily life, but the hunter of the night, the avenger from his twisted fantasies. Something along that line. Imagine a 20-30 year old, mental age rather about 15, who lives to degree in the fantasies of his comic stage.
    He would have a history of soft drug abuse, like Marijuana, but not pills or only as exception. The ritual of building and smoking a pipe of pot would be intriguing to him. So he would use soft drugs, but a lot of it. Sometimes that much, that he gets a little out of control and vents steam in wild incoherent rants if provoked by even the smallest joke or wrong word.
    He would follow his master, wherever the master goes. This isn't the theoretical dominant-submissive model we hear in every second episode of TV-shows. This is deeper and harsher. Basically, the junior defines himself over the long time more and more by the relationship to his master. Since his fantasies are essentially childish in a way, it's in his own mind like the dark king and his faithful strong manifestation of his will, the dark knight. I know, that sounds ridiculous, but this ridiculousness is part of the relationship. Because the senior would see the junior rater as a useful pet. For the senior it is all about statements like "see me, here is what I can do!". In those statements is no real room for the junior. However, the idea to have found a way to go on when one day he isn't physically able anymore, would be also intriguing to the senior.
    As I said, I have no hard evidence for this, only some little behavioral signs, so it is pretty wobbly yet. A good collection of crime scene photos would maybe help to confirm or dismiss that impression, but that's what we won't get from LE.
    On a side note: Whether team or single, the profile wouldn't change too much because the junior has not much influence on when to hunt or whom. So hunting behavior, base MO and signature are mostly determined by the senior anyway. The only thing, that could happen is a slight acceleration. As in 1996, 2000, 2003 and then suddenly three or four in the next seven or eight years, which, in all slowness, would be already doubling the frequency.
     
  18. LINative13

    LINative13 New Member

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    Very interesting guys. I like it.
     
  19. Seaslug44

    Seaslug44 New Member

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    That's what I was hoping for. A fresh new approach to this case without the drama.
     
  20. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    What bothers me is, that unlike in the LISK case, where I was ignored till the possible evidence wasn't available anymore, I have no idea how to dig out this guy or guys - yet.
     
  21. BKS

    BKS Sleuthhound

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    What is the exact location of where JT was found at Manorville?
     

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