Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #2

[monkeypants]

and why would pirates take a dead body btw?
to do what with it?
seems so illogical its not even funny...especially "teenagers"...how did they manage to take the body out of the water and the jet ski and get all the way to shore and disappear before the authorities arrived just minutes after it was reported to LE? Those are some fast pirates...(since they had to get their own boats out of the lake and hooked up to an automobile to leave the scene- anyone that owns a boat will tell you what a long and arduous process that is)
if they sunk the body LE would have found it fast as the lake is only 110 feet deep at the dam which is the deepest part of the entire lake....

 

[monkeypants]

btw the average jet ski weighs well over 500 pounds...and a soaking wet man that weighs well over 200lbs of pure dead weight.....

how in the heck are they lifting this out of the water in a timely fashion UP and INTO boats?? and how big are these boats the pirates are in that they can fit all these people and a dead body and a jet ski?

i am wondering if david wasn't killed on land somewhere and prior to tiffany being in the water on a jet ski....

 

[kemo]

I spent the weekend watching sports and getting up to speed on this case. There are many question raised by the whole thing that have not, at least publically been answered. Her are a few.

1) Tiffany said she "thought" David was shot from the back, but she later said the bullet went clear through his head so she couldn't tell whether he was hit from the front or back. This raises two questions. First, didn't she know whether the gunmen were in front of or behind David? That should have settled the issue. Secondly, it is highly unusual for a bullet to exit the skull with a clean exit wound. I'm wondering if she "changed" her story to to cover for an account of the attack that placed the gunnmen IN FRONT of David.

2)From the picture of the Jet-ski's during the police stop, they are obviously "high end" model SKI-DOO's (although I couldn't identify the year or model). These go very fast (over 50MPH) yet, the mystery witness who saw Tiffany make land, claims he saw a boat chasing Tiffany and that boat was close enough to him for him to tell that they were shotting at her. Now we don't know where David's body was when Tiffany took off for "safety" but she must have given a precise location to authorities. We do know it was in the Area of Old Guerrero We don't know where the witness was standing, but the authorities do. It isn't rocket science to figure out how fast one of the "pirate" boats would have to be to keep up with Tiffany's Jet -ski over that distance. (It would definitly have to be real fast). Was Tiffany's description consistant with any boat capable of going that fast?

3)In Tiffany's account, she sees David "go down", she goes to him and sees that he is dead, yet even though the "pirates" are heading in her direction, she makes a "valiant" effort to put David in her Jet-Ski so as to bring his "lifeless" body back to US waters. She abandons her effort only when the men are as close as 14 ft. A few days later, in an interview, she makes the accusation that Mexican Authorities "have" David's body and are hiding it. Now, as she has become a feature on a number of talk shows, she has indicated that she doesn't "care" if justice is done to the killers, just so she gets David's body back. This emphasis on her personal "determination" to recovor the body dovetails with the biggest mystery of this case: Where, exactly, is the body?

4) The basis that these "pirates" are members of a Drug Gang is unclear. It didn't come from from Mexican authorities who dispute that the whole thing ever happened. While I have no idea how drug gangs operate, I don't see an obvious connection between what happened and the "drug trade". It seems a lot more like a robbery gone bad than anything else. Since Mexican police are pretty good at working with US authorities to solve "routine" crimes against American Tourists, Drug Gangs, who "own" corrupt Federales, provide a good explaination why the Mexicans didn't find anything.

I do find it a little bizzare that Tiffany is now "branding" herself and "fighter" against Illegal Immigration since the only Illegal Immigration that her story serves as a cautionary tale against, is the dangers of AMERICANS crossing illegally into Mexico.

 

[jjenny]

and why would pirates take a dead body btw?
to do what with it?
seems so illogical its not even funny...especially "teenagers"...how did they manage to take the body out of the water and the jet ski and get all the way to shore and disappear before the authorities arrived just minutes after it was reported to LE? Those are some fast pirates...(since they had to get their own boats out of the lake and hooked up to an automobile to leave the scene- anyone that owns a boat will tell you what a long and arduous process that is)
if they sunk the body LE would have found it fast as the lake is only 110 feet deep at the dam which is the deepest part of the entire lake....

Well it is certainly more likely that a number of men could hide a body and a jet ski than a small woman could hide a body and a jet ski.

 

[jjenny]

In fact, as far as I know, we have no evidence besides Tiffany's word that David was ever on the lake that day. I've heard of no witnesses saying they saw him, just her.

He was going toward the lake and both jet ski were there.
It certainly wouldn't be easy for a small woman to hide a body and a jet ski on land either.

 

[kemo]

Are there any Jet-Skiers out there? What does it take to sink one?

 

[monkeypants]

3)In Tiffany's account, she sees David "go down", she goes to him and sees that he is dead, yet even though the "pirates" are heading in her direction, she makes a "valiant" effort to put David in her Jet-Ski so as to bring his "lifeless" body back to US waters. She abandons her effort only when the men are as close as 14 ft. A few days later, in an interview, she makes the accusation that Mexican Authorities "have" David's body and are hiding it. Now, as she has become a feature on a number of talk shows, she has indicated that she doesn't "care" if justice is done to the killers, just so she gets David's body back. This emphasis on her personal "determination" to recovor the body dovetails with the biggest mystery of this case: Where, exactly, is the body?

technically she changed this story to that she wasn't actually sure he was dead or just knocked out...but God told her to go so she high tailed it out without checking for a pulse....oh wait...she changed that too....now it is not because of God but because she didn't want her family to go through what David's is going through right now.....

 

[monkeypants]

from ************dotcom (ok cant post it...but if you google blink and crime you can figure it out)

This afternoon, ************ Editor spoke with Chuck Smith, owner Smith Marina USA about specifics of the Sea Doo RXT.

..Your correct, the RXT has a chip in the starter that is electronically programmed to “match” the owners lanyard key. If he was wearing the lanyard, whether attached to his vest, or in some cases the arm, and he was thrown off the ski, it activates a kill switch and will not start without the key it is programmed to without a factory reprogramming, which of course, one would need the paperwork for. In short, no matter what, they would need his key to start it.

Blink Question: What if he was not attached to the key, and he was shot and flew off the unit “in motion”, this would not shut the engine off, correct?

CS: Correct. The ski would continue in the direction the handlebars were pointing and continue to throttle in that direction.

Blink: How hard are these models to sink?

CS: Virtually impossible. I have never actually heard of, or seen one, sink to the bottom. The way the Coast Guard standards are now with these, they have hulls similar to boats.

Blink: Could enough bullet holes sink it? What about if the contiuum– could that have caused it to flip? Could anyone right it?

CS: No, not unless we are talking morter rounds. I guess in theory an automatic weapon could put enough holes cut it in half if that was the goal, but again, your still going to see shards of fiberglass all over the water, remnants similar to a boat accident or crash. Again, under these circumstances, I don’t see how he could flip it, but if it were, again, harder to see because the bottom is black, but any SAR or Coast Guard deployment knows what abnormalities to look for on the water surface. It would be next to impossible to “right it” in deep water. It would be more likely they would drag it to shallow water.

Blink: Is this chop-shoppable?

CS: Absolutely. There is some after factory devices, similar to lo jack, but the engine and parts are expensive and could easily be sold that way.

Blink: He was wearing a PFD I. In your opinion is that keeping him afloat until he is located if he was left in the water?

CS: Absolutely, unless it was removed, or he and the vest were removed from the water, he would be floating, yes.

 

[monkeypants]

Well it is certainly more likely that a number of men could hide a body and a jet ski than a small woman could hide a body and a jet ski.

I never said I thought she acted alone.

Based on her statement that she "feels it is now time to move on with life" (2 weeks after her husband is murdered in front of her - apparently not very traumatizing to her)
I suspect we will hear shortly that she is dating...perhaps she has turned to one of David's bestfriends in her "grief".....can't wait to see if there was any life insurance on david, as per her facebook page they attended a david ramsey seminar and from what I have read online the step 7 is getting alot of life insurance on each other....and since they completed the seminar it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this angle.

I believe that if David is dead then Tiffany played a role in that death. If David is not dead and this some kind of scam where he "survives" a brutal "pirate" attack and starts making money off interviews, books and the like it would sure solve their money problems and since Tiffany refuses to demand justice or give any descriptions of the killers then no one is hurt....

 

[kemo]

jdj125, Thanks for the info and the model id.

jjenny, I agree, it would be hard, nigh impossible for Tiffany to dispose of the jet-ski on either land or water (and very difficult for "pirates" to do it either). If Tiffany wanted to kill David and stage it to look like "bandits" did it, she would leave the jet-ski and David's body right there where the Mexican authorities would expect to find them. The effort and risk of concealing the body and Jet-ski would only raise all kinds of questions. Further more, she would most likely claimed that: "they came towards us , started shooting, we took off, David went down, but I was scared;I kept going, I don't know if he is alive or dead" That is what people would have expected. Assuming that she isn't telling the truth, the only point I can see in claiming she went to help David while under fire (aside from making her look brave and heroic) would be so that she could claim, with certainty, that David was dead. This will become an issue if there is a Life Insurance claim.

I am also very interested what that "witness" told US law enforcement (and who he really is)

I am not "positive" this is a hoax but taken as a whole: the very strange story (with all the twists and turns), the pleasure she seems to get going on TV and talking about it, PLUS, the "coincedence that she happened to have the key to the truck and that David just happened to mention the trip to his mother that morning and, well it all smells real funny.

 

[6angels]

I believe her. My family LOVES Mexico and would move there if we could. yes it has problems like every where. Last year when me and my husband went the policia stopped up and threatened my husband ( not me) until he gave them money. It was a older man and a teen ( look to be in training) . It was not until I looked at the teen and the "Policia" and pleaded with them that we was let go with a small amount of money given to them. ( not how much they wanted) .They the whole time never once bothered me or said anything to me but was always to my husband . We did report this to our resort and was told this is common.. Most the time they won't bother the woman but will go after the men and let the woman go matter of fact they told my husband they was not going to take ME but him to jail and I'd have to find my way back to my resort. Why was he stopped? He was looking at roses on a public bush ( on our annv) . He is a Officer himself in the states and stayed polite but told them he was not giving up our money ( what little we had) . We of cource in the end did end up paying them but not what they wanted and not until I started to cry and ask them to leave us alone. This was not the same part of mexico and it was Polica instead of pirates but it did happen. Would I go back ? Yes. Are we crazy? No. 99% of what we have experianced in mexico has been wonderful and we have been treated with the most highest respect but this one time we was not . There has been time in the USA I was treated worse then I was in mexico.We know where we should and shouldn't go ( just like in the USA) but made the mistake of going out to late at night alone in a dark area won't happen again.

 

[Trino]

Been lurking here...

Lots of inconsistencies in her story, for sure, but I appreciate the fact that she told Obama to wake up. Maybe others didn't say it, but certainly they thought it.

 

[lonetraveler]

I believe her. My family LOVES Mexico and would move there if we could. yes it has problems like every where. Last year when me and my husband went the policia stopped up and threatened my husband ( not me) until he gave them money. It was a older man and a teen ( look to be in training) . It was not until I looked at the teen and the "Policia" and pleaded with them that we was let go with a small amount of money given to them. ( not how much they wanted) .They the whole time never once bothered me or said anything to me but was always to my husband . We did report this to our resort and was told this is common.. Most the time they won't bother the woman but will go after the men and let the woman go matter of fact they told my husband they was not going to take ME but him to jail and I'd have to find my way back to my resort. Why was he stopped? He was looking at roses on a public bush ( on our annv) . He is a Officer himself in the states and stayed polite but told them he was not giving up our money ( what little we had) . We of cource in the end did end up paying them but not what they wanted and not until I started to cry and ask them to leave us alone. This was not the same part of mexico and it was Polica instead of pirates but it did happen. Would I go back ? Yes. Are we crazy? No. 99% of what we have experianced in mexico has been wonderful and we have been treated with the most highest respect but this one time we was not . There has been time in the USA I was treated worse then I was in mexico.We know where we should and shouldn't go ( just like in the USA) but made the mistake of going out to late at night alone in a dark area won't happen again.

I can testify that the Police do bother women and try to extort money from them. My husband and I were vacationing in Cancun and were in a huge shopping mall when out of nowhere a policeman appeared on each side of me and each one of them grabbed one of my arms. My husband was there next to me, they did not even address him. They accused me of passing counterfit Canadian traveler's checks. They said that one of the clerks in a store in the mall had described me (I have red hair) and that they were arresting me. I jerked my arms out of their grasp and vigorously showed them my traveler's checks were United States Bank issued and showed my identification that I was a citizen of the United States. I fought them all the way to the exit and yelled at my husband to hail a taxi. I had absolutely no intention of going with them. They were struggling to pull me away with them. Everytime my husband tried to talk with them he was threatened. Then the real shakedown began. They said that if I would pay them $300.00 they would not arrest me. I told my husband that if they took me away to go to the American Embassy. I told them that I wasn't going to give them s........ I shook loose of their grip and my husband and I managed to get away from them in a taxi. I fully expected them to follow and take me to a Mexican jail. I do not and will not ever consider this normal. There is a lot more to Mexico than the resorts. Watch the news at night, or google the crimes. We don't get to see a lot of news on what is really happening there to tourists. I have no interest in ever seeing Mexico again.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

What is it she wants Obama to wake up to, I wonder?

The fact that Americans who venture illegally into another country, aware that it's dangerous but apparently ignoring those warnings because they discussed beforehand what they would do if attacked (according to Tiffany), might meet with misfortune? :waitasec:

 

[jjenny]

Been lurking here...

Lots of inconsistencies in her story, for sure, but I appreciate the fact that she told Obama to wake up. Maybe others didn't say it, but certainly they thought it.

I would understand her talking about border security if they were on US side of the lake, but they were in Mexico. So I fail to see why it is her place to tell Obama to "wake up."

 

[monkeypants]

I would understand her talking about border security if they were on US side of the lake, but they were in Mexico. So I fail to see why it is her place to tell Obama to "wake up."

now THIS i agree with you on

 

[IzzyBlanche]

So I started to reread this thread searching for articles that have been posted to demonstrate how vicious and brutal these drug cartels are.

I didn't finish, the thread's too long and believe it or not I have other stuff to do, but you know what?

Every single article I read--and again I did not read all of them--cited events that happened in Mexico, not the US.

So what does she think Obama should do? Invade Mexico?

 

[hollyblue]

and why would pirates take a dead body btw?
to do what with it?
seems so illogical its not even funny...especially "teenagers"...how did they manage to take the body out of the water and the jet ski and get all the way to shore and disappear before the authorities arrived just minutes after it was reported to LE? Those are some fast pirates...(since they had to get their own boats out of the lake and hooked up to an automobile to leave the scene- anyone that owns a boat will tell you what a long and arduous process that is)
if they sunk the body LE would have found it fast as the lake is only 110 feet deep at the dam which is the deepest part of the entire lake....

I was under the impression that the authorities were not there right away. If you have info to the contrary, I'd like to read it. I don't know how soon the US authorities responded, but that would only be on the US side. Something tells me the MX authorities would not be in hurry to "discover" anything.....honestly. I've tried to think of how the pirates would disappear the jet ski and David. Jet ski would be easy and pretty quick if they found the langard?/key. My only other scenario would have been if they towed them both; but him still being on land would make the best way to make him disappear. If, he is in fact dead. I'm still up the air what really happened to him and how the whole story actually played out....only that I don't think she is telling it all....and that it's a pretty twisted and convuluted story.

 

[hollyblue]

Glad to see so many posts in the last 24 hours and everyone's thoughts and input. To tell you the truth, I'm pretty disheartened by the whole "political" scene surrounding this now.

(Granted, there is a huge problem with the border issue and I feel for the citizens of Mexico, whose country, which is very beautiful, but is in tremendous turmoil...and has been for many years; but I wouldn't set foot there....anywhere. You don't know who you are supporting at this point with the monies that you would spend. Sort of like going to Afghanistan, Iraq and many other countries, imo.) Do you think we really put indent in the drug problems there? Psffft.

She is backed by congressmen, governors, etc....sorta tells me or makes me feel we will never know anymore...or the full truth. Is she being used for their political agendas only? Will they "sort of" drop her like dead fish after the elections are over? She was going to make this her agenda AFTER her main focus of David and her grieving....apparently...her story has changed yet again. If the authorities do not investigate all probable sides to this, then David's life didn't amount to chit and his family will always wonder....I believe eventually....if, how and why it wasn't...especially no justice. To his family...this is about David...personal....not a bigger picture of border control....and IF, IF her story is true, she is going to slam into reality really hard and quick once the politicians have their go at it and she has to then endure the What the Hello happened and hit that wall of grieving...along with the mire of confusion of being diverted for their vote gathering. Sort of truly bashing the victim, imo.

Maybe I just want answers....and we're not getting any.

JMO

 

[hollyblue]

More.......Colorado is being "snowed" upon. imo

"I'm supposed to be here," Tiffany Hartley said to a group of reporters when asked why she is now so interested in talking about other acts of violence. "This is what I am supposed to be doing right now."

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=159897&catid=339