Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #2

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Thank you for this post, fran. BBM by me. I think there is way too much wild speculation in this case. Sometimes things just really ARE what they seem to be.

I agree that they murdered David because they could. They have done the same to others as well. My late husband who was retired LE would be telling me to hold my horses on any guilt concerning the wife if I were suspecting her. He and I knew each other inside out and I know he would be telling me this.

This occurred in an open waterway with miles and mile of open area. There could have been MANY witnesses, IMO. The drug guys wouldn't care about witnesses, but someone not in the cartel and planning a murder would. Every part of a murder or murder for hire plan would have to fall into place. No one could have even counted on LE stopping Tiffany and David enroute for an expired registration sticker on the trailer and being able to verify that they were on their way down. To me, this minor traffic infraction just lends credence to Tiffany's story.

Murdered for insurance money? Well, they better either find David's body or be prepared to wait years before they collect.

Yes, I am on Tiffany's side and will contiue to be supportive of her.

GB Tiffany, David's family, friends, and and all of those who loved him or cared for him.

IMHO

BBM - I respect your stance on this story LA. However, I cannot understand how the traffic infraction lends any credence to TYH's story at all. The only thing it proves is that they were headed to Falcon with their jet skis to play, just as DH told the officer. The rest of TYH's story still doesn't hold water either way...
 
BBM - I respect your stance on this story LA. However, I cannot understand how the traffic infraction lends any credence to TYH's story at all. The only thing it proves is that they were headed to Falcon with their jet skis to play, just as DH told the officer. The rest of TYH's story still doesn't hold water either way...

Well, for one thing, I would think (know) an LE officer would be fully aware of the demeanor of anyone he/she stops for an infraction of any kind. Was Tiffany nervous? Too talkative? Acting aphrensive? Such things as that will have you out of that vehicle with LE asking you if they can search your vehicle. The officer would have noticed. Now if I were to be going to the destination to murder my husband, or in cahoots with someone else to murder my husband, I would have been nervous as he!! to have been stopped by LE enroute. And she would have had a gun hidden somewhere if she herself was going to shoot her husband. And if she had hired someone else to do so, then she could have thought at first that they were being stopped because the MFH person squealed. LE picks up on the demeanor of whomever they stop. Always.

Tiffany was not making this traffic stop a huge part of her story. Then it came out that a dash cam had captured the stop. All of the above is of significance to me.

This murder and the events surrounding it happened very quickly, IMO. It is possible to remember something more later. It is easy for us to judge because we are sitting here doing our judging and speculating at our leisure. Real events such as this are over very quickly.

Still sticking up for Tiffany - now and later. And, I also respect your opinion as well, JDzWife!

All MOO!
 
My brother works for a huge oil and gasline company. I cannot begin to count all of the places he has been. He just finished a big job up near the Canadian line and has been home for a few days. Sometimes it is a couple of months. He got a call this morning to go to Michigan for 3 months. He has to be there Monday. He has no idea where he is going next when he finishes a job, ever. He was on this last job for over a year and North Dakota before that. When he is on a job, he can actually live on his perdiem and save all of his salary. He has always been able to buy many Big Boy toys because of that. Inbetween jobs, he lives with me and has an office here. BTW, he is single - does anyone want him? He is an environmental engineer.

Being in the type of business David is, I do not find it at all unusual that he might not have yet known where he and Tiffany would be going next. AND, I have no doubt David would have made a big salary. Probably bonuses as well.

And in that call was he told what area of Michigan they needed for him to work in? I know all too well how it works...you may not know an EXACT town/city you will want (have) to live in...all depends on the area that the locations are going to be drilled...
 
My brother works for a huge oil and gasline company. I cannot begin to count all of the places he has been. He just finished a big job up near the Canadian line and has been home for a few days. Sometimes it is a couple of months. He got a call this morning to go to Michigan for 3 months. He has to be there Monday. He has no idea where he is going next when he finishes a job, ever. He was on this last job for over a year and North Dakota before that. When he is on a job, he can actually live on his perdiem and save all of his salary. He has always been able to buy many Big Boy toys because of that. Inbetween jobs, he lives with me and has an office here. BTW, he is single - does anyone want him? He is an environmental engineer.

Being in the type of business David is, I do not find it at all unusual that he might not have yet known where he and Tiffany would be going next. AND, I have no doubt David would have made a big salary. Probably bonuses as well.

My late husband and I traveled and worked inside the United States and other countries, including Mexico and Jamaica and there were many times that we did not know until the very last minute where we would be living. We often lived in hotels for a while until we found housing. We worked at the power plants in Mexico and Jamaica and the route to the plants were so dangerous that an escort was required to get the crews there safely. I have had more than one Uzi in my face from the drug gangs in Jamaica. Horrifying to say the least. Away from the tourist areas there is an entire different environment and you can get killed very easily. I'm a bit surprised to find that there are some on this thread who still want to put the suspicion onto the wife of the man murdered. I came very close to losing my life while working out of the country. As soon as I returned to my hotel, I packed, left and vowed to never work out of the country again. The crew had to travel together whenever we were enroute to the power plant. The trip took an hour and 1/2 one way, over the Blue Mountains and through back country to get to the power plant. It was not unusual to have drug gangs stop the car and order everyone out, stick an Uzi under your chin and take everything on you and in the vehicle. No surprise, we lost crew members as fast as they came into the country, mostly after the first work shift. Pay was very good. Your pay was put into the bank at home, you were given a very hefty living allowance, a car, all fuel, beer and spending money, a very nice hotel suite, food, drinks, everything paid for, just to keep you there. It was indeed an experience that I will never forget, nor would ever do again. I fully believe this woman's story. These thugs will kill just for fun. Probably killed for the jet ski. Unless you have been in a situation like this, I do not expect you to understand at all.
 
I would think the Mexican Consulate could arrange for Tiffany to file a report through them, FGS.

I do not blame her - I would not go to Mexico either.

JMO

I totally agree. Many, many officials in Mexico are paid or threatened by the drug thugs to leave them alone. There is no way I would go to Mexico to file any report. She most likely would not have made it back to the USA.
 
My late husband and I traveled and worked inside the United States and other countries, including Mexico and Jamaica and there were many times that we did not know until the very last minute where we would be living. We often lived in hotels for a while until we found housing. We worked at the power plants in Mexico and Jamaica and the route to the plants were so dangerous that an escort was required to get the crews there safely. I have had more than one Uzi in my face from the drug gangs in Jamaica. Horrifying to say the least. Away from the tourist areas there is an entire different environment and you can get killed very easily. I'm a bit surprised to find that there are some on this thread who still want to put the suspicion onto the wife of the man murdered. I came very close to losing my life while working out of the country. As soon as I returned to my hotel, I packed, left and vowed to never work out of the country again. The crew had to travel together whenever we were enroute to the power plant. The trip took an hour and 1/2 one way, over the Blue Mountains and through back country to get to the power plant. It was not unusual to have drug gangs stop the car and order everyone out, stick an Uzi under your chin and take everything on you and in the vehicle. No surprise, we lost crew members as fast as they came into the country, mostly after the first work shift. Pay was very good. Your pay was put into the bank at home, you were given a very hefty living allowance, a car, all fuel, beer and spending money, a very nice hotel suite, food, drinks, everything paid for, just to keep you there. It was indeed an experience that I will never forget, nor would ever do again. I fully believe this woman's story. These thugs will kill just for fun. Probably killed for the jet ski. Unless you have been in a situation like this, I do not expect you to understand at all.

I for one do not doubt your story at all....I believe it. I have lived in a Texas border town....YEARS ago and there were risks then...people will tell you in that area what to expect. But here is where we are going to differ....you went there for a job...not sight seeing. A pleasure trip....just not the same IMO....PAY IS GREAT for those jobs...But a PICTURE???? Seriously....give me a break.
 
Fran and LaLaw2000 - I respect your opinions and agree that just because someone lived in Mexico doesn't mean they associated with drug cartels, or engaged in illegal activity. As my post said that was pure speculation on my part. But, I speculated based more on what, IMO, Tiffany has not said. I still believe that her story about her husband's terrible death may very well be exactly what happened. But there is more that I think Tiffany has not told - perhaps the real reason for the trip to the lake, or something that happened previously, it could be just about anything. Just have a unsettled feeling that Tiffany has not told all. For the sake of David's family I do pray his body is found and he can be properly laid to rest.
 
I found it extremely odd...coupled with the fact that this was a last minute trip to the church. They decided at 9 am to take a little skidoo trip to Mexico shortly before they had to move....yet they didn't know what town they would be moving to....realtors fault....they didn't "set up" a house hunting trip. Hmmm. Sorta like the trip to Moscow, Russia was cancelled because of the sudden move to Mexico.

Per Tiffany, if they moved to McAllen, the company would pay for their 1st year of expenses. If they moved to Mexico, the company would pay for all their living expense while living there...???? So why was he robbed of rent money that he didn't tell her about a year and a half ago????

Love to know what kind of gun she was looking down the barrell at; as the witnesses who thought the gun shots they heard were dove hunters. Since when do dove hunters use automatic weapons? Mean doves...I guess....or GIANT whoppers in that lake. IMO

Holly - thanks for your post. I tried to find information about David being robbed of rent money and then not telling Tiffany about it a year and a half ago, but I could not find reference to it in the threads, or on the internet. I will readily confess my eyes are not so great at night... do you have a link for where Tiffany talks about the robbery of the rent money? Thanks in advance.
 
BBM

His head was put in a suit case and left out side a military base or office.

If I was her I don't think I would be going to Mexico to fill out any paper work or talk to the authorities there either. I would imaging that is just an excuse to get her where they can question her in regards to this killing and hold her until they get it sorted out. If it comes up that she was involved in her husbands death I would think she could be charged for this investigators death. JMO.

_______________________________________________

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/10/12/texas.falcon.lake.head/index.html

Mexican investigator in Falcon Lake case beheaded, officials say

Mexican Investigator Probing Murder of American Decapitated; Head Delivered to Military in Suitcase…

(CNN) -- The lead Mexican investigator in the Falcon Lake case, Rolando Armando Flores Villegas, has been killed, his severed head delivered Tuesday in a suitcase to the Mexican military, officials told CNN.

"His head was delivered to the army garrison this morning in a suitcase after he failed to report back home last night," Zapata County, Texas, Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez Jr. said.

(Snipped)

So at this point the investigation is over? Since the crime took place in Mexican waters, it's up to the Mexican authorities to investigate...and how can they investigate if she can't be questioned about the incident? Can/would they come to the US to do so or warrant for her to go there?

What a mess. I think the beheading was done to tell both sides to get out the waters---pun is intended---and a warning to just let things be. I guess we will see what happens in the next couple of days.
 
Holly - thanks for your post. I tried to find information about David being robbed of rent money and then not telling Tiffany about it a year and a half ago, but I could not find reference to it in the threads, or on the internet. I will readily confess my eyes are not so great at night... do you have a link for where Tiffany talks about the robbery of the rent money? Thanks in advance.

Go to the audio I posted on the first page of this thread. HTH
 
The timeline does not add up for the video. There are so many inconsistencies in Tiffany's story. I find it suspect that for some odd reason she had his truck keys. Why would she have them if he drove the truck? Simple answer is she would not. I am in Federal law enforcement and have to shoot at a range with NON MOVING TARGETS. It is fact that if the target is moving and the shooter is also moving at high speeds in a boat, The shooter will never get a clean shot to the head. Unless I apply all fundamentals of shooting, I will not hit my target.This only happens in Hollywood. Perhaps Tiffany saw this on "Miami Vice". If they did have automatic weapons like Tiffany preaches....There will be hundreds of shots being spayed everywhere. Furthermore if her Jet ski is moving at a high rate of speed, It would be impossible for her to see rounds hitting the water, not to mention hear them. In addition it is insult to injury when she tells her story and she claims she went back to get him. I can not speculate enough how much of the truth she is not telling. It is interesting on her Facebook page she is always posting about her boring life. It is also interesting that she is a fan of Dave Ramsey and goes so far to say that he has helped her. Suspect that there were financial problems. It looked like they lived a lavish lifestyle as well. Jet ski's, motorcycles, Trucks. I could go on and on. Tiffany needs to be investigated, and I'll add some more insight into this;, she indeed is. The authority's do not believe her, They are allowing her to tell her story and run the media so they can build their case. Furthermore, she does not realize this. Tiffany wants the fame of fortune and to live her fifteen minutes as long as she can. Remember Scott Peterson, Susan Smith? Enough said.

I respect that you are in law enforcement and have knowledge of these types of things, but there is a first time for everything. I also believe in miracles and do believe that was what occurred here.
 
The timeline does not add up for the video. There are so many inconsistencies in Tiffany's story. I find it suspect that for some odd reason she had his truck keys. Why would she have them if he drove the truck? Simple answer is she would not. I am in Federal law enforcement and have to shoot at a range with NON MOVING TARGETS. It is fact that if the target is moving and the shooter is also moving at high speeds in a boat, The shooter will never get a clean shot to the head. Unless I apply all fundamentals of shooting, I will not hit my target.This only happens in Hollywood. Perhaps Tiffany saw this on "Miami Vice". If they did have automatic weapons like Tiffany preaches....There will be hundreds of shots being spayed everywhere. Furthermore if her Jet ski is moving at a high rate of speed, It would be impossible for her to see rounds hitting the water, not to mention hear them. In addition it is insult to injury when she tells her story and she claims she went back to get him. I can not speculate enough how much of the truth she is not telling. It is interesting on her Facebook page she is always posting about her boring life. It is also interesting that she is a fan of Dave Ramsey and goes so far to say that he has helped her. Suspect that there were financial problems. It looked like they lived a lavish lifestyle as well. Jet ski's, motorcycles, Trucks. I could go on and on. Tiffany needs to be investigated, and I'll add some more insight into this;, she indeed is. The authority's do not believe her, They are allowing her to tell her story and run the media so they can build their case. Furthermore, she does not realize this. Tiffany wants the fame of fortune and to live her fifteen minutes as long as she can. Remember Scott Peterson, Susan Smith? Enough said.

I am sure that law enforcement has looked into her past/present, did an investigation of her. That has to be the case given the circumstances, and it appears they have cleared her. I think the best evidence of her true character and whether she is telling the truth is David's family. They trust her.
 
My point, at two points in time she claims she was shot at, both before and after David was shot. She claimed they chased her well back into US waters, yet at one point...they were 10 feet away with a gun pointed directly at her face. It doesn't make sense.

They fled, were pursued, she looked back, and saw David fly over the top of his jet ski, she turned around and went to him, and most likely the boats were advancing on them. They came up to them, and saw her, and weren't sure what they were going to do. Went to another boat and she jumped on her ski and fled. She said she even passed them and gained speed. I think she was divinely protected. She seems to believe so too.
 
Not to mention clairvoyant:

HARTLEY: There were three boats that were chasing us and then one boat came up to me and I saw two people in that boat. But there was a third or a fourth person in that boat. I just didn't see them.

Source: http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1010/11/acd.02.html

And we saw, you know, that they had guns. I didn't personally see that. But my husband just motioned that we needed to get going, then shooting at us.

Source: http://www6.lexisnexis.com/publishe...topicId=100018248&docId=l:1276414631&start=10

She probably meant she heard someone or more than one but couldn't see them.
 
Not to mention clairvoyant:

HARTLEY: There were three boats that were chasing us and then one boat came up to me and I saw two people in that boat. But there was a third or a fourth person in that boat. I just didn't see them.

Source: http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1010/11/acd.02.html

And we saw, you know, that they had guns. I didn't personally see that. But my husband just motioned that we needed to get going, then shooting at us.

Source: http://www6.lexisnexis.com/publishe...topicId=100018248&docId=l:1276414631&start=10

I see nothing clairvoyant about her account in this statement. Kind of like an ah-ha moment, after the fact she has realized he was montioning her to get moving because he apartently saw the pirates first. And it wasn't until they started firing she realized what the heck was going on and it made sense why he was motioned like we need to get the heck out of here.

TIFFANY HARTLEY (HUSBAND KILLED BY PIRATES)

On Thursday morning, David and I had decided that we were gonna go out to Falcon Lake. He loves history, and he did all this research about this church over in Mexico side, the old Guerrero. And so we decided we'd go out there because we were moving back to Colorado. And we were heading over to the church. We took some pictures, and were heading back out and three boats had come towards us. And we saw, you know, that they had guns. I didn't personally see that. But my husband just motioned that we needed to get going, then shooting at us.
 
So how many 4'11, blonde, Caucasian women are part of any Mexican cartel?????? I won't say where I think these "think tankers" heads are placed at the moment.

Report: Zetas may have mistaken couple for rival cartel members

Zeta scouts identified the Hartleys’ truck as the couple was en route to the reservoir and watched them set out personal watercraft toward the Old Guerrero area, STRATFOR reported on its website, citing unnamed sources.

STRATFOR said its sources reported that higher-ranking Zeta members had not green-lighted the attack and that a "damage control campaign" spearheaded by Zeta leader Miguel "Z-40" Treviño Morales is now underway to identify and eliminate those who carried out the attack.
A STRATFOR representative contacted Wednesday said no one at the think tank was available for an interview about the group’s report until today

http://www.themonitor.com/articles/mistaken-43578-report-rival.html
 
What happened to the story she told about the men waving and appearing friendly?
 
This makes sense to me.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/me...rtel_spies_104910724.html?c=y&page=2#storytop

Lake killing blamed on blunder

His report concludes “halcones,” or Zeta scouts, noticed Mexican tags on the trailer towing the Hartley's personal watercraft, mistook them as spies for the rival Gulf Cartel and sent radio messages buzzing across the lake.

The couple had lived in Reynosa, Mexico, where Hartley worked for an Alberta-based oil company.

“Once Hartley was identified as an American, his body was destroyed the same day as the incident to prevent a backlash from the U.S. government against the group,” the report states.

and

“The cartel boss — Miguel Treviño — is highly upset over the fact that these individuals shot and killed Mr. Hartley and it's our understanding that the cartel boss is hunting for the killers of Mr. Hartley so he can take care of them himself,” said Fred Burton, STRATFOR's vice president of intelligence.
 
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