GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen and both parents guilty* #7

[nightowl1975]

Just a reminder of the things James has said.

James Crumbley's threatening jail calls against Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald released

The release of this new information comes ahead of the parents' sentencing, which is scheduled for Tuesday, April 9.

www.cbsnews.com

He addressed threats directly to McDonald and in one threat made on Sept. 23, 2022, he said, "Yeah, YOU *advertiser censored***** Karen McDonald. You're a *advertiser censored***** stupid b****. I hope you're listening to this, you *advertiser censored***** b****."

Other threats the prosecution released in the document include the following highlighted comments:

"Well, she's going to be *advertiser censored***** sucking on a *advertiser censored***** hot rock down in hell soon." (Jail call on Dec. 6, 2022)
"Yeah, Karen McDonald, you're going down. Yeah. You stupid b******* at the jail. Go ahead, record this call, Send it to Karen McDonald. Tell her how James Crumbley is going to *advertiser censored***** take her down." (Jail call on Oct. 9, 2023)
"Yeah, *advertiser censored****** Karen McDonald. You're *advertiser censored**** when I get out." (Jail call on Dec. 20, 2023)
"There will be retribution, believe me." (Jail message on Dec. 23, 2023)
"I am *advertiser censored***** on a rampage, Karen. Yes, Karen McDonald. Your *advertiser censored** is going down and you better be *advertiser censored***** scared." (Jail call on Jan. 3, 2024)

Holy crap. I had only seen the snippet of a quote stating “there will be retribution, believe me”. This?? All of this?? I’m shocked he wasn’t charged. We cannot allow our prosecutors to be threatened like this. They’re doing their job. And these quotes are fairly recent too, so it’s not like he could try to excuse it on the basis of the early days of being in complete shock.

 

[gitana1]

I gotta say I believe this is a good example of a case that would have gone better for the defendants had they negotiated a plea agreement from the day their arrest warrants were signed.

If they had come in immediately and took responsibility and pled guilty I believe they wouldn't have gotten such a high sentence. I believe that absolutely some years would have been knocked off.

Also showing remorse over recorded jail phone lines instead of threats would have been better.

I believe in prison both Crumbleys will find inmates who feel sorry for them and will tell them they don't belong here etc....

So James can continue to say he was wrongly charged and convicted and Jennifer can continue to say she wouldn't do anything different. According to the prosecutor Jennifer also said this in a jail phone call.
She tried to walk it back at her sentencing but it was too little too late.

Stay tuned for their prison info and mug shots.

2 Cents

How did she try to walk it back? I did see the part where when one of the victims (I think Justin’s dad) said that he was appalled when Jennifer stated that “even with everything she knew now, she wouldn’t have done anything differently”, her attorney acted out, shaking her head in an exaggerated manner and telling Jennifer, (who was also demonstrating her lack of agreement to the statement), something to the effect of “that’s not what you said.”

I think the attorney and Jennifer object to the “even with everything she knows now@, part.

What did Jennifer say at sentencing about that statement?

 

[Cool Cats]

How did she try to walk it back? I did see the part where when one of the victims (I think Justin’s dad) said that he was appalled when Jennifer stated that “even with everything she knew now, she wouldn’t have done anything differently”, her attorney acted out, shaking her head in an exaggerated manner and telling Jennifer, (who was also demonstrating her lack of agreement to the statement), something to the effect of “that’s not what you said.”

I think the attorney and Jennifer object to the “even with everything she knows now@, part.

What did Jennifer say at sentencing about that statement?

Jennifer did not word her "differently" statement the way the parent remembers. When asked by her attorney if she would do anything differently Jennifer replied:

"i wouldn't do anything differently."

The prosecutor did say that on a jail phone call Jennifer said again that she "wouldn't do anything differently."

Jennifer Crumbley expresses sorrow, hatred for prosecutors: 'Alone, I grieve'​

MSN

She also addressed her controversial testimony, during which she said, "I wouldn't have done anything differently." The comment was cited by the jury foreperson in her case and by Oxford High families as callous and showing her lack of remorse.

"I was horrified to learn that my answer had the effect" that it did, she said, explaining that her answer reflected what she knew at the time.

"This was not something I foresaw," Jennifer Crumbley said of the shooting. "With the benefit of hindsight, my answer would be drastically different."

Especially, she added, "if I thought my son was capable of crimes like these."

"The Ethan I knew was a good kid. My husband and I used to say we had a perfect kid ... that's who I saw and thought I knew," she said.

 

[Cool Cats]

Holy crap. I had only seen the snippet of a quote stating “there will be retribution, believe me”. This?? All of this?? I’m shocked he wasn’t charged. We cannot allow our prosecutors to be threatened like this. They’re doing their job. And these quotes are fairly recent too, so it’s not like he could try to excuse it on the basis of the early days of being in complete shock.

It isn't a crime to say what he said, people can say whatever they want. I could tell my dad that I hate someone or I'm gonna destroy someone and I wouldn't get arrested and charged.

But it goes into criminal territory if I make a threat directly to a person or pay someone to harm that person.

2 Cents

 

[ChatteringBirds]

If she didn't know Ethan was disturbed, she should have. It was her parental responsibility to know, and the evidence was in VERY plain sight. It was all just too inconvenient for her.

I keep thinking how they didn't tough or hug him when they had the chance. Not in the school meeting and not when they saw him after the shooting. As if they both had a superficial bond with him.

She also urged the public to take away this message: "This could be any parent ... your child can make any decision."

My child could make any decision, but it wouldn't be with a gun that I bought and left unlocked in an armoire.

 

[BrownRice]

How did she try to walk it back? I did see the part where when one of the victims (I think Justin’s dad) said that he was appalled when Jennifer stated that “even with everything she knew now, she wouldn’t have done anything differently”, her attorney acted out, shaking her head in an exaggerated manner and telling Jennifer, (who was also demonstrating her lack of agreement to the statement), something to the effect of “that’s not what you said.”

I think the attorney and Jennifer object to the “even with everything she knows now@, part.

What did Jennifer say at sentencing about that statement?

It was Hana St Julian’s teenage sister who called out a person off camera-, assuming SS, by saying something like don’t shake your head, she said it, it was on camera.

I remember watching the trial when Jennifer said she would not change a thing and it was horrible. And stuck with me. Obviously, victims’ parents as well since each brought it up.

Jennifer tried (unsuccessfully imo) to backtrack by saying that’s not what she meant . She said with hindsight, knowing now what she did not know then, obviously she’d change what she did. In my opinion, it’s BS. But also, there WAS enough information with what “little “ she knew then. Not going to rehash everything, but an observant parent (even a slightly lazy parent) should have seen EC was struggling. Hey, the kid even asked for mental health help!

 

[BrownRice]

I keep thinking how they didn't tough or hug him when they had the chance. Not in the school meeting and not when they saw him after the shooting. As if they both had a superficial bond with him.



My child could make any decision, but it wouldn't be with a gun that I bought and left unlocked in an armoire.

Yes, so sad to see the disconnect they had with their kid. He was screaming for help. But they could only give 12 minutes of their time for a school meeting.

EC is a killer and deserves to be in prison. I do have sympathy for him though because he didn’t have a chance. His mother tried to have us believe they were a normal loving family. lol.

The parents who spoke of their deceased children… Those were loving families. Probably not perfect, because no parents are. But like one of the moms said, parents make mistakes but learn from them. They don’t keep making the same mistakes.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Holy smokes. She IS weird. What’s wrong with her?

Smith's "Spartacus" shtick is my favorite.

“I realised I am Jennifer Crumbley,”

Ms Smith said, outlining similarities between the two women."

Jennifer Crumbley’s lawyer bizarrely tells court about own lack of showering

Shannon Smith, Ms Crumbley’s defence attorney, sought to compare their parenting styles – with a bizarre statement

www.the-independent.com

 

[BrownRice]

Smith's "Spartacus" shtick is my favorite.

“I realised I am Jennifer Crumbley,”

Ms Smith said, outlining similarities between the two women."

Jennifer Crumbley’s lawyer bizarrely tells court about own lack of showering

Shannon Smith, Ms Crumbley’s defence attorney, sought to compare their parenting styles – with a bizarre statement

www.the-independent.com

That was the craziest closing I’ve ever seen. JC could probably use that as backup for her ineffective counsel defense.

 

[Izzylizzy]

It isn't a crime to say what he said, people can say whatever they want. I could tell my dad that I hate someone or I'm gonna destroy someone and I wouldn't get arrested and charged.

But it goes into criminal territory if I make a threat directly to a person or pay someone to harm that person.

2 Cents

James's threats were in his sentencing memo and Marc Keast read a penal code to Judge Matthews which covers his threats.
Judge Matthews agreed that they were threats so did she not have the authority to add some time onto his sentence if she chose to do so?

James's +15 points for the threats remained on his sentencing memo.

'Prosecution discusses James Crumbley's threats against prosecutor during sentencing'​

 

[Izzylizzy]

That was the craziest closing I’ve ever seen. JC could probably use that as backup for her ineffective counsel defense.

I doubt it because according to the jury foreperson it was JC being the last known person to be in possession of the handgun that played a huge role in finding her guilty of negligence.

The appellate would have to find/agree with the defense that it was Smith's theatrics/rhetoric that influenced/brought the jury to the guilty verdict and not the evidence presented at trial.

 

[RickshawFan]

One moment in time demonstrates that they were not good parents. Their actions that day with their son and the school are reprehensible. On the whole, for me, her words are of no import. It can not be argued that they did their best. Maybe that was the best they could offer their son. These parents thoughts and excuses are disgusting to me. MOO

IMO they couldn’t do any different. It’s not just they didn’t: they couldn’t. That’s who they ARE. Ethan realized this and felt it in those last, dark, months. He was bereft with almost every breath…everything I’ve seen of his writing, his messages, his pleas, everything anyone else observed about him. Even the school’s inclination not to force him to go home that day IMO came from a place of recognition and compassion. Disastrous, yes, but what would they have been sending him home to? Now, they’d seen that black hole of parenting with their own eyes.

How would you have reacted if you've come to know a student’s parents in the principals office, and you’d had the dawning recognition these were profoundly uncaring parents? That they behaved like these parents, black holes of people? Very destructive to a child? AND you didn’t know about the gun? The school’s instinct (yes, disastrous) was to cocoon him where there were others around. I can totally see responding this way.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Really? I didn’t watch the trial. What do you think she did poorly? Or failed to do? I’m curious.

I don't know if Shannon Smith's handling of the case was necessarily poor, but her behavior in the courtroom is the most unprofessional that I have ever seen. SS likes to be the center of attention and seems like she is "performing" for the Judge, jury, and others in the courtroom. I found some of her courtroom antics to be totally obnoxious. JMO

 

[WestGL]

IMO:
By making these claims it proves that JC learned absolutely nothing about why she and James were held legally accountable and convicted .

"She also urged the public to take away this message: "This could be any parent ... your child can make any decision."

Not just with a gun, she said, but with a knife, a vehicle — and the parents could be held responsible."

I live in Michigan and have closely followed this case. Some of the things said yesterday were very puzzling, and this was one of them.

That Jennifer Crumbley could try to argue that she has so much remorse and regret, and would do so many things differently, but then goes on to say that what was entirely unfairly happening to her could happen to any normal loving family just like them. Because her family was completely normal and loving and typical. That any loved normal child of loving normal parents could just become a mass murderer out of nowhere and the loving normal parents could go to jail for no reason.

This could happen to ANY OF YOU, she said to all the families in the courtroom, including the victims families. So jaw dropping and brazen. In my opinion, something about her is missing, whether social deficits or typical neuros or lack of conscience pathologies, etc…

Never ever owning up to any of the very rare facts, that are not at all something that “any of you families” practice or hold as normal: that their admittedly weird son lived home alone much of the time, like a feral child, in a pigsty. While they were out having affairs. Consuming themselves with adult hobbies that almost never include their son. That he was home killing and mutilating creatures in their home. That he was saying strange things and acting in strange ways for a long time leading up to this. that he was secretly planning mass murder for a long time leading up to this. That he was coldly plotting how to get a better murder weapon.

That his parents proudly bought him a much more effective murder weapon and bought him good ammo and took him to practice using it…all in the FOUR DAYS before the shooting.

That he couldn’t talk to them, that they wouldn’t listen to him, so he DREW A PICTURE of the gun killing a human on the morning of the shooting! And the parents came to the school, and they all gathered around the drawing. And they all looked at it and saw the gun and saw a person shot and saw phrases like blood everywhere. And no one thought to say, hey, come to mention it, we bought him the gun in the drawing a few days ago! And maybe we should discuss this further rather than rush back to our inane jobs and lunchtime affairs in parking lots!

Has that ever happened? Will that ever happen again? On the very morning of the school shooting, while the shooter has the gun in his backpack, the shooter draws a picture of a shooting and writes HELP ME?!?! Then school officials and parents and shooter all convene at the school to look at his drawing of a shooting. The very morning of the school shooting!! The shooter has the gun in his backpack! That his parents just bought him and taught him how to use! And the shooter with his gun and the parents who bought it and the school officials all sit together looking at his drawing of a shooting!!! HELP ME!!

Sorry Jennifer, it could not be any of our families randomly out of the blue. Because if my child was mutilating birds and planning a school shooting and I bought him a gun and I was called to the school because he made a drawing of a shooting with the gun and wrote phrases like HELP ME! And THE THOUGHTS WONT STOP!, I certainly wouldn’t impatiently say Can I leave now?! and go about my business as usual!!

 

[WestGL]

The other big thing that stood out to me at yesterday’s hearing. Tate Myres dad, his victim impact statement where he pivoted to use the time to get on his soapbox and angrily demand an investigation into the school officials and law enforcement officials and everyone else besides the Ethan‘s parents. Something about it, his raging delivery, his using the solemn occasion to bloviate, felt out of place and discordant and inappropriate to the matters at hand. That he was calling for the “actual truth” of what happened to come out rather than address the truths that did come out about Ethan’s parents because that was the purpose of the time.

It was confirmed that there was something off about it just ten minutes later. He may be forever haunted that James Crumbley then turned to him and pointed at him and said I AM WITH YOU tate myres dad!!! the truth has not come out! The truth must come out, right Tate Myers’s dad?!

Uggh that was horribly awkward.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Mother of Michigan school shooting victim says Crumbley sentencing ‘sends message to parents’

Nicole Beausoleil, mother of Madisyn Baldwin, 17, joined Savannah Guthrie on TODAY to discuss her emotional impact statement and the Crumbleys' sentencing

www.nbcnews.com

The mother of a Michigan school shooting victim said Wednesday that the sentencing of gunman Ethan Crumbley's parents “sends a message to parents all around.”

Nicole Beausoleil — mother of 17-year-old Madisyn Baldwin, who was killed in the 2021 Oxford High School shooting — spoke with Savannah Guthrie on the "TODAY" show about Tuesday's sentencing of James and Jennifer Crumbley.

The Crumbleys each received 10 to 15 years in prison after being found guilty of involuntary manslaughter for what prosecutors say was their gross negligence in helping facilitate their son's shooting rampage.

"It sends a message to really listen to your children," Beausoleil said of the sentence. "There should be accountability for every action that we have."...

 

[Izzylizzy]

I live in Michigan and have closely followed this case. Some of the things said yesterday were very puzzling, and this was one of them.

That Jennifer Crumbley could try to argue that she has so much remorse and regret, and would do so many things differently, but then goes on to say that what was entirely unfairly happening to her could happen to any normal loving family just like them. Because her family was completely normal and loving and typical. That any loved normal child of loving normal parents could just become a mass murderer out of nowhere and the loving normal parents could go to jail for no reason.

This could happen to ANY OF YOU, she said to all the families in the courtroom, including the victims families. So jaw dropping and brazen. In my opinion, something about her is missing, whether social deficits or typical neuros or lack of conscience pathologies, etc…

Never ever owning up to any of the very rare facts, that are not at all something that “any of you families” practice or hold as normal: that their admittedly weird son lived home alone much of the time, like a feral child, in a pigsty. While they were out having affairs. Consuming themselves with adult hobbies that almost never include their son. That he was home killing and mutilating creatures in their home. That he was saying strange things and acting in strange ways for a long time leading up to this. that he was secretly planning mass murder for a long time leading up to this. That he was coldly plotting how to get a better murder weapon.

That his parents proudly bought him a much more effective murder weapon and bought him good ammo and took him to practice using it…all in the FOUR DAYS before the shooting.

That he couldn’t talk to them, that they wouldn’t listen to him, so he DREW A PICTURE of the gun killing a human on the morning of the shooting! And the parents came to the school, and they all gathered around the drawing. And they all looked at it and saw the gun and saw a person shot and saw phrases like blood everywhere. And no one thought to say, hey, come to mention it, we bought him the gun in the drawing a few days ago! And maybe we should discuss this further rather than rush back to our inane jobs and lunchtime affairs in parking lots!

Has that ever happened? Will that ever happen again? On the very morning of the school shooting, while the shooter has the gun in his backpack, the shooter draws a picture of a shooting and writes HELP ME?!?! Then school officials and parents and shooter all convene at the school to look at his drawing of a shooting. The very morning of the school shooting!! The shooter has the gun in his backpack! That his parents just bought him and taught him how to use! And the shooter with his gun and the parents who bought it and the school officials all sit together looking at his drawing of a shooting!!! HELP ME!!

Sorry Jennifer, it could not be any of our families randomly out of the blue. Because if my child was mutilating birds and planning a school shooting and I bought him a gun and I was called to the school because he made a drawing of a shooting with the gun and wrote phrases like HELP ME! And THE THOUGHTS WONT STOP!, I certainly wouldn’t impatiently say Can I leave now?! and go about my business as usual!!

Winner! Winner!
Best post ever.

IMO:
JC claiming this can happen to any of you/ parent,when your kid gets hold of a gun/knife/car was supposed be the rallying cry that would have reached a jury and find her not guilty and also cause thousands to come to her and James's defense.
Her fear tactic failed big time because anyone with half a brain who did a little investigating knows that is not true.

You articulately stated why these ludicrous claims of hers and Smith's were DOA to the jury and to the judge.

 

[BrownRice]

IMO they couldn’t do any different. It’s not just they didn’t: they couldn’t. That’s who they ARE. Ethan realized this and felt it in those last, dark, months. He was bereft with almost every breath…everything I’ve seen of his writing, his messages, his pleas, everything anyone else observed about him. Even the school’s inclination not to force him to go home that day IMO came from a place of recognition and compassion. Disastrous, yes, but what would they have been sending him home to? Now, they’d seen that black hole of parenting with their own eyes.

How would you have reacted if you've come to know a student’s parents in the principals office, and you’d had the dawning recognition these were profoundly uncaring parents? That they behaved like these parents, black holes of people? Very destructive to a child? AND you didn’t know about the gun? The school’s instinct (yes, disastrous) was to cocoon him where there were others around. I can totally see responding this way.

This is a very sad post. And completely accurate.

 

[BrownRice]

IMO they couldn’t do any different. It’s not just they didn’t: they couldn’t. That’s who they ARE. Ethan realized this and felt it in those last, dark, months. He was bereft with almost every breath…everything I’ve seen of his writing, his messages, his pleas, everything anyone else observed about him. Even the school’s inclination not to force him to go home that day IMO came from a place of recognition and compassion. Disastrous, yes, but what would they have been sending him home to? Now, they’d seen that black hole of parenting with their own eyes.

How would you have reacted if you've come to know a student’s parents in the principals office, and you’d had the dawning recognition these were profoundly uncaring parents? That they behaved like these parents, black holes of people? Very destructive to a child? AND you didn’t know about the gun? The school’s instinct (yes, disastrous) was to cocoon him where there were others around. I can totally see responding this way.

This is a very sad post. And completely accurate.

 

[Cool Cats]

James's threats were in his sentencing memo and Marc Keast read a penal code to Judge Matthews which covers his threats.
Judge Matthews agreed that they were threats so did she not have the authority to add some time onto his sentence if she chose to do so?

James's +15 points for the threats remained on his sentencing memo.

'Prosecution discusses James Crumbley's threats against prosecutor during sentencing'​

A penal code does not mean he could have been charged. He would have to actually break the law which I don't think he did. I need links to learn otherwise.