GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #5

[Izzylizzy]

Hate is a very strong word for somebody one's never met. JC chose to take the stand, it's always risky. Her attorney will have advised her on that.
If she doesn't resonate with some jurors or viewers, I doubt that you can just assume whatever you want to project onto them.

Some jurors may have teens, some jurors might not be parents, some might have grandchildren who've experienced difficulties. Because of the location some might have kids who safely and routinely use guns in hunting. They still might hold unexpected views regardless.

Did we hear of the age range of the jurors from the selection phase?

Here's a list of the jurors.
Their description gives some kind of age range.

Jennifer Crumbley's jury includes several gun owners, mostly women

Ten women and seven men will hear the case, then five alternates will be dismissed when deliberations begin.

www.freep.com

 

[abeaman02]

I am from the Lake Orion/Oxford community but have not wanted to voice my opinion about the trial, because I know many of the people affected first hand, and I feel it would be inappropriate. But I feel Smith is fair game. When Smith said she is just like Jennifer Crumbley, she was closer to the truth than she realizes. Just like JC she is willing to sacrifice her family especially her children to get what she wants...a win. Does she not think about how this might make her son feel "he could take a knife and kill someone" He could be sexting...what is she thinking? I could see her son be teased about this at school, and she doesn't care because everything including this case is about her. Brushing her hair, acting computer illiterate, its all about her and a win MOO.
I know more people than JC dropped the ball on this, but the first love a child ever feels should be his mother and if she fails him that is where the hurt and loneliness begins, if the neglect is continued throughout depression can set it. If not your mom should drop everything to help you. Seeing the pain and loss this has caused first hand and knowing how it could have been prevented beginning with JC, I am praying for a guilty verdict, to start the healing.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I am from the Lake Orion/Oxford community but have not wanted to voice my opinion about the trial, because I know many of the people affected first hand, and I feel it would be inappropriate. But I feel Smith is fair game. When Smith said she is just like Jennifer Crumbley, she was closer to the truth than she realizes. Just like JC she is willing to sacrifice her family especially her children to get what she wants...a win. Does she not think about how this might make her son feel "he could take a knife and kill someone" He could be sexting...what is she thinking? I could see her son be teased about this at school, and she doesn't care because everything including this case is about her. Brushing her hair, acting computer illiterate, its all about her and a win MOO.
I know more people than JC dropped the ball on this, but the first love a child ever feels should be his mother and if she fails him that is where the hurt and loneliness begins, if the neglect is continued throughout depression can set it. If not your mom should drop everything to help you. Seeing the pain and loss this has caused first hand and knowing how it could have been prevented beginning with JC, I am praying for a guilty verdict, to start the healing.

With great sadness behind it your post became "post of the thread".

Do you sense that parents in your community who have children and guns are part of their activities have become more aware of the dangers and vigilant?

 

[IAMWAN]

I am from the Lake Orion/Oxford community but have not wanted to voice my opinion about the trial, because I know many of the people affected first hand, and I feel it would be inappropriate. But I feel Smith is fair game. When Smith said she is just like Jennifer Crumbley, she was closer to the truth than she realizes. Just like JC she is willing to sacrifice her family especially her children to get what she wants...a win. Does she not think about how this might make her son feel "he could take a knife and kill someone" He could be sexting...what is she thinking? I could see her son be teased about this at school, and she doesn't care because everything including this case is about her. Brushing her hair, acting computer illiterate, its all about her and a win MOO.
I know more people than JC dropped the ball on this, but the first love a child ever feels should be his mother and if she fails him that is where the hurt and loneliness begins, if the neglect is continued throughout depression can set it. If not your mom should drop everything to help you. Seeing the pain and loss this has caused first hand and knowing how it could have been prevented beginning with JC, I am praying for a guilty verdict, to start the healing.

I am from the area as well and have kids in Lake Orion schools. I feel like I have tried to stick to the facts of the trial without voicing much opinion. Partly because I know people affected by the trial, but also because I cannot decide what the “right” outcome is. I think so many people failed that day. The failures of his parents started long before that day. Either way, 4 families lost their children and numerous others have been irrevocably changed by what happened on 11/30.

Overall, I think this trial was underwhelming. I don’t know if anyone is walking away feeling like they got all of the answers they wanted about all of the events leading up to that day.

 

[abeaman02]

I am from the area as well and have kids in Lake Orion schools. I feel like I have tried to stick to the facts of the trial without voicing much opinion. Partly because I know people affected by the trial, but also because I cannot decide what the “right” outcome is. I think so many people failed that day. The failures of his parents started long before that day. Either way, 4 families lost their children and numerous others have been irrevocably changed by what happened on 11/30.

Overall, I think this trial was underwhelming. I don’t know if anyone is walking away feeling like they got all of the answers they wanted about all of the events leading up to that day.

Hi neighbor
My kids are also dragons
I agree 100%

 

[Izzylizzy]

I am from the area as well and have kids in Lake Orion schools. I feel like I have tried to stick to the facts of the trial without voicing much opinion. Partly because I know people affected by the trial, but also because I cannot decide what the “right” outcome is. I think so many people failed that day. The failures of his parents started long before that day. Either way, 4 families lost their children and numerous others have been irrevocably changed by what happened on 11/30.

Overall, I think this trial was underwhelming. I don’t know if anyone is walking away feeling like they got all of the answers they wanted about all of the events leading up to that day.

Was the school criminally investigated going back to when the students returned to school after Covid and how they addressed EC from then until 11-30-21?
Thanks..

 

[stripehaven2]

Do you have a teen?
I expect most moms that come across this case hate her. It makes them feel better about themselves.

One could just as easily say that some women feel compelled to support her so they don’t feel bad about their own parenting choices. But that would be a ridiculous assumption.

 

[abeaman02]

Was the school criminally investigated going back to when the students returned to school after Covid and how they addressed EC from then until 11-30-21?
Thanks..

Independent investigation report released on Oxford High School shooting

 

[Cool Cats]

Was the school criminally investigated going back to when the students returned to school after Covid and how they addressed EC from then until 11-30-21?
Thanks..

The school has governmental immunity. Staff can't be charged criminally.

Governmental immunity shields government agencies from legal liability if the agency is "engaged in the exercise or discharge of a governmental function," according to court documents

A judge tossed out the civil lawsuits against the school.....

Michigan judge dismisses all suits against Oxford school district related to 2021 shooting

A Michigan judge has dismissed all civil lawsuits filed against Oxford Community School district and its employees in connection with a 2021 school shooting.

abcnews.go.com

In her decision, Oakland County Circuit Judge Mary Ellen Brennan said the conduct of the school district and its employees who were named in the suit were not the "proximate cause" of the victims' injuries.

Brennan ruled that Crumbley's act of firing the gun was the most "immediate, efficient and direct cause of the injury or damage," not the actions of the district and school employees, arguing that their conduct did not cause immediate harm to the plaintiffs.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Independent investigation report released on Oxford High School shooting

Thank you.

 

[Izzylizzy]

The school has governmental immunity. Staff can't be charged criminally.

Governmental immunity shields government agencies from legal liability if the agency is "engaged in the exercise or discharge of a governmental function," according to court documents

A judge tossed out the civil lawsuits against the school.....

Michigan judge dismisses all suits against Oxford school district related to 2021 shooting

A Michigan judge has dismissed all civil lawsuits filed against Oxford Community School district and its employees in connection with a 2021 school shooting.

abcnews.go.com

In her decision, Oakland County Circuit Judge Mary Ellen Brennan said the conduct of the school district and its employees who were named in the suit were not the "proximate cause" of the victims' injuries.

Brennan ruled that Crumbley's act of firing the gun was the most "immediate, efficient and direct cause of the injury or damage," not the actions of the district and school employees, arguing that their conduct did not cause immediate harm to the plaintiffs.

I didn't know that about the civil lawsuits being dismissed.

" legal liability"

My question is was the school ever criminally investigated?
By the state and/or federal govt?

The "Guidepost Solution" report is an independent investigation company, do you or anyone know if they recommend criminal charges?

Thanks you!

 

[Izzylizzy]

Hard to find WS approved commentary on the closings but here's one from yesterday on the " jennifer is a victim' claim from JC

Just finished Dr.G.
He doesn't disappoint.
I wish he'd do Shannon Smith.
Thanks again.

 

[TenaciousTBacon]

Ethan and Jennifer's behavior were two sides of the same problem. Imo, Jennifer never bonded with her son. For whatever reason, who knows, but she spent loads of time and money avoiding a relationship with him. Horses, shopping, the boyfriend, working at the office when she could've worked from home, going to the bar or the barn with James. And Ethan probably never understood what he'd done to be unlovable and unloved.

His boiling vat of need eventually exploded and even when Jennifer saw it coming she couldn't bring herself to do a thing about it. She just didn't seem to care about him. And even in retrospect she denies seeing a thing amiss. At least Ethan admitted what he did. Jennifer is still lying about her behavior and how it contributed to the tragedy of Ethan and what he did to get back at her.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Hard to find WS approved commentary on the closings but here's one from yesterday on the " jennifer is a victim' claim from JC

I was surprised that he called Smith a "great trial lawyer" and didn't address her courtroom shenanigans.

 

[abeaman02]

Interesting article. Something may have changed since this but not sure
Federal judge allows some Oxford High School shooting lawsuits to move forward

 

[Izzylizzy]

Interesting article. Something may have changed since this but not sure
Federal judge allows some Oxford High School shooting lawsuits to move forward

I was getting ready to post this after Ven Johnson was brought to my attention and I looked him up.

Your article is from May 2023.

In August 2023, they dropped the civil liability charges against the Crumbleys because it would speed up their appeal on the ruling that eliminated parties from their civil suit.

Attorney Ven Johnson discusses decision to drop civil suit against parents of Oxford high shooter

The parents of the teen who shot and killed four people and injured seven others at Oxford High School in November 2021 have been dropped from a civil suit brought by the victims and their families.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Cool Cats]

I didn't know that about the civil lawsuits being dismissed.


My question is was the school ever criminally investigated?
By the state and/or federal govt?

The "Guidepost Solution" report is an independent investigation company, do you or anyone know if they recommend criminal charges?

Thanks you!

Yes the school was criminally investigated by both the Oakland County Prosecutor’s Office and the Oakland County Sheriff’s Department.

The result of that is 3 people were charged criminally.

The prosecutor said she hadn’t seen any “criminal culpability” by staff and was reluctant to blame anyone besides Crumbley and his parents. That's an investigative process that I’ll leave to law enforcement.

Guidepost Solution made safety recommendations only.

Could others be charged, liable in Michigan school shooting?

A prosecutor continues to criticize the decision to keep a teenager in a Michigan school before a shooting that killed four students last week.

apnews.com

Final Report Ocs Investigation | PDF | Policy | Mental Health

Final Report Ocs Investigation

www.scribd.com

 

[GRT]

If you can get through the hate for the lawyer and the disparaging remarks about her and her client's lifestyle choices and appearances. It comes down to whether the parents are culpable for what their son did. Not whether JC did things that were immoral or whether her lawyer grates on anyone's nerves. Jurors have to look at the law and the evidence. They do not have to personally like people.

I think this is the bottom line here. The world is full of immoral people who lead highly questionable lives.

But, does that make them criminally liable for their teen child's horrific acts?

I've found myself questioning whether JC's poor life choices and self-centered attitude make her criminally liable or whether the prosecution is really going after her because she is a fallen woman.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

This is a simple case for me.

It was foreseeable that he might use the gun to harm himself or others, because of the clear struggles he was having (grades dropping, socially isolating, difficulty sleeping), JC had expressed concerns/worries about him more than once to others in the past, and the drawing.

That's just the kind of teenager who conducts school shootings, and we all know that.

They literally gave him a gun. Additionally I believe their neglect was proven. They are guilty. All IMO.

It's so disappointing that people are feeling the state's cross and closing weren't strong.

 

[cottonweaver]

Here's a list of the jurors.
Their description gives some kind of age range.

Jennifer Crumbley's jury includes several gun owners, mostly women

Ten women and seven men will hear the case, then five alternates will be dismissed when deliberations begin.

www.freep.com

thanks for that link

' The panel of 12 jurors and five alternates includes 10 women and seven men, most of them parents...'

• Juror 1: White female. Works in human resources. Has two adult children. Her father was a hunter. “I gave up watching all the news in all forms six years ago. I’m pretty uninformed.” Regarding her father’s guns, “I know my dad’s guns were always locked. It was not for the children.”
• Juror 2: White, 26-year-old married male. Says he grew up in a strict, Christian home. He works in sales for the mortgage industry. He took hunter safety classes when he was 16, but is not an avid hunter. His father has a gun and has a concealed-carry permit. The juror said he doesn’t have strong opinions on guns. He doesn’t have cable TV, tries to stay away from social media and despises TikTok.
• Juror 3: White female hairstylist, says she’s familiar with the case, has no issues with guns and can be impartial.
• Juror 4: White female engineer, husband is a lawyer. She said she can be fair and impartial and that “it’s not a good-bad parent decision” the jury will be making in this case, stating: “That’s not why we’re here.” She did note, however, that she no longer goes to movie theaters or shopping malls following a mass shooting in Colorado that shook her sense of security.
• Juror 5: White female, married. Has guns in the house and says they “are locked up.” She has two grown children and recalls taking gun safety classes as a family when the kids were in elementary school. She works for a bank and her husband is in advertising. “I feel like I can be fair,” she said.
• Juror 6: White female. Married and retired compliance specialist. Her husband is a retired meat market owner and her daughter a special education teacher. She was on a jury many years ago, but remembers little to nothing about the case.
• Juror 7: White male doctor who said, “I’ve seen a lot of gun violence.” Owns multiple guns that he stores in a safe. He calls himself a “very strong proponent” of the Second Amendment and goes to shooting ranges about once a month, maybe every two months. He has lost two loved ones to suicide by a gun.
• Juror 8: White male. Automotive engineer with twin teenagers. He has a collector’s gun that belonged to a relative who served in a war. He remembers being a kid and learning how to shoot a shotgun, though he is not into guns as an adult, beyond owning his collector’s item.
• Juror 9: White female. First-grade teacher, married with two grown children and one older teenager. “I don’t have guns, but I understand that it’s legal,” she said.
• Juror 10: White male, works in vehicle logistics. He owns several guns and remembers tagging along with his dad to gun ranges when he was 10. His best friend is a police officer in a jail and his girlfriend is a personal trainer.
• Juror 11: Single white female. No children. She has a gun for personal protection, worked 16 years as a police officer for a university. Now she handles parking tickets.
• Juror 12: Black male, Single. No children. Works as a manager in sales. His father had a gun and taught him about gun safety.
• Juror 13: Single white male who works as a powertrain engineer. He doesn’t own any guns, but went to a shooting range with his girlfriend over the last year for fun. He grew up in Nebraska. He says his engineering brain makes him a good juror as he will be able to carefully analyze evidence as it applies to the charges. Defense attorney Shannon Smith joked with him that “We don’t let engineers sit on juries” because they typically see the world in black and white. “But there’s a lot of gray space in this case,” Smith said. The juror said he understood and that he could be fair.
• Juror 14: White male parole officer who says he’s “fair to a fault” and sees “success stories” in his work involving prisoners who turn their lives around. He’s married, has two older teenagers. Has guns at home, keeps them in a storage unit. His kids are not interested in guns. Before his 20-year career in law enforcement, he worked for the government’s Medicaid and food stamp programs.
• Juror 15: Single white female who works as an account manager for rental properties. Lives with her parents.
• Juror 16: White married female with an infant son. Works in billing for university students. She is originally from the Upper Peninsula and used to be a hunter. She remembers getting days off from school as a kid during hunting season, but she no longer hunts. Her sister was a target of a school shooting that was stopped.
• Juror 17: White female, married with two school-age children and works in veterinary medicine. “When I think about this case, I feel rage,” she said of the Oxford shooting. She grew up with guns. Her dad hunted and her sister is a competitive shooter, though she said her husband is “very anti-guns” and “just doesn’t want them in our house.”