Resolved MI - Manistee, Child's Partial Mandible, at contruction site, Nov'10 - Case closed

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Soulmagent said:
The first article said the dirt had been moved from elsewhere I expect the spots to be additional bones of the same body. 4 Suspected human bones so. I think a dog can only hit on the scent for so long so I dont except it to be a tribal burial site.

Also I think the Jaw could belong to a male as there wouldnt be anyway to tell the sex without maybe DNA.
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A female's jawbone will generally be somewhat lighter, and the shape of certain features will be different. It's not one hundred percent, but they can get a pretty good clue.
 
carbuff said:
A female's jawbone will generally be somewhat lighter, and the shape of certain features will be different. It's not one hundred percent, but they can get a pretty good clue.
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Even at such a young age?

Thanks I didnt know that. I had read how the pelvis bone is how the sex is idenitified but that in very young children it was very hard and until a certain age other markers were unreliable. There is a difference in the shape of the skull to I believe in younger children as well. Maybe some more stuff I am forgetting. I should refresh myself on the subject.


I cannot find a link that mentions those indicators on a child, it mentions it for adults.
 
Soulmagent said:
Even at such a young age?

Thanks I didnt know that. I had read how the pelvis bone is how the sex is idenitified but that in very young children it was very hard and until a certain age other markers were unreliable. There is a difference in the shape of the skull to I believe in younger children as well. Maybe some more stuff I am forgetting. I should refresh myself on the subject.


I cannot find a link that mentions those indicators on a child, it mentions it for adults.
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Yes, the jawbone would be unreliable in a very young child, but by the time the third molar comes in, as with this sample, it's starting to get easier -- but yeah, DNA is the only thing that will give you a definitive reading.

Carl posted a pointer to an article quite a while back, but I don't remember in which thread. I'll check later today to see if I can find it. I do have this one saved: http://www.crimeandclues.com/index.php/death-investigation/65-pathology/126-forensic-osteology-part-one (part two is, contrary to logic, in the "previous" direction...) Not the one I'm thinking of however.
 
CarlK90245 said:
Close-up of the jawbone

2711024580045078242S600x600Q851.jpg
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If I'm reading the articles correctly, the angle made by the bottom of the bone is what makes it almost certainly female. A male jawbone would be closer to a right angle. Compare the photo above with this from an adult male skull model:

picture.php
 
Carbuff I really am not trying to be a pain. I just keep going to check info and I am not convinced. I was thinking of posting my daughters dental x-rays as a way to compare the jawbone to a child in the age range. Not sure how the image would post though I may try it later.


http://www.memorizer.net/en/human_body/skeleton/bones_overview/(lower)%20jaw%20bone

(snipped)'By the way, the differences in shape of the jaw bones of woman among themselves and man among themselves is large and there is quite some overlap between man and woman. Therefore it is not possible on the shape of the jaw bone alone to determine whether it is a male or female bone'(unsnip)

I would guess it would be even more so impossible to guess as to a childs. Maybe they found clothing that supports the conclusion as the ME is out of town?
 
I certainly don't think you're a pain! We need to look at these things carefully and understand them. And I'm certainly not a forensic specialist. I've done some archaeology, is all -- and none of it was related to human bones, except to the extent of recognizing when to call an expert. So when they talk about the scan they did, I have an idea how they went about it, but when it comes to comparing teeth, I'm going on the same information as you.

I agree, there's much overlap between male and female and much more ambiguity in children's bones. Many of the differences in the photo I posted are from the adult-to-child transition, not a potential gender difference. Can I see why they're calling it female? Yes. Do I think it's definitive? No, and I don't imagine they do either.
 
One thing to keep in mind when looking at teeth and age is that some people get their teeth late. I did not finish getting my teeth until I was in my mid to late teens. I have never gotten wisdom teeth and I'm 30. I also did not lose my last baby tooth until I was maybe 12.
 
Ms Suzanne said:
May I please ask is this Michigan?Is this anywhere near where Nevaeh Buchanan was from when she was found murdered?

http://www.ludingtondailynews.com/n...nd-at-manistee-construction-site?newsgroup_id=
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Manistee is approximately 300 miles north of, and about 4 1/2 hours from Monroe, MI where Nevaeh was found.

One thing to note is, that despite the seemingly long distance, heading "up north" is a frequent trip for many of us "flatlander's" here in MI (or vice-versa) for many reason's. Many have families that have moved north (or south) and/or have work related ties, and vacationing in the north is common.

It may not be related to her case, but the construction aspect does lead one to at least question it.
 
Cubby informed me of this article. My friend Coral Pearl Hall has been missing fron Flint, Mi. for 12 years now without a trace. There is a thread about her on websleuths. I have been surfing the web trying to find as much info on this as I could. I read that they closed the case. I am frustrated with the outcome. They could not locate any more bones than they did so thay just closed the case! This is so sad. There is a child out there that is dead and they don't even want to find out who it was? They should at the very least get DNA from the remains and submit it to NaMus to find a possible match. I'm sure the family that lost their child would like to lay their child to rest. They need to do more, I am sure they can. What do you all think?
 
Melissa said:
Cubby informed me of this article. My friend Coral Pearl Hall has been missing fron Flint, Mi. for 12 years now without a trace. There is a thread about her on websleuths. I have been surfing the web trying to find as much info on this as I could. I read that they closed the case. I am frustrated with the outcome. They could not locate any more bones than they did so thay just closed the case! This is so sad. There is a child out there that is dead and they don't even want to find out who it was? They should at the very least get DNA from the remains and submit it to NaMus to find a possible match. I'm sure the family that lost their child would like to lay their child to rest. They need to do more, I am sure they can. What do you all think?
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You mean they closed this case? The jawbone they just found and the ME couldnt look at it because he is out of town? So it hasnt even been looked at yet by the offical that is supossed to look at these things?
WHAT?
Or maybe I have it wrong, I hope.

Isnt it supposed to go into namus as well? Is that a law yet?
 
Well I was looking at the newer news and thats what it said. I am on my husbands laptop and cannot post a link, just google "case closed jawbone found in manistee" and you can find the article.
 
Thank you. I did find a link.

It does say the bones apear very old and weatherd and from a young girl not in a burial site. (all not new infomation) In addition it adds the below quoted statement.

Police say there is no indication that the site is an organized burial site, has additional remains, or is a crime scene. Among the questions that remain is how to pay for the continued investigation
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So it apears they have closed the case as to not to have to pay for a continued investigation.


http://www.ludingtondailynews.com/news/53396-more-small-bone--fragments-found
 
They should at least extract DNA from the teeth or bones, if it is possible.
 
McSpy said:
They should at least extract DNA from the teeth or bones, if it is possible.
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There needs to be some kind of national fund or something that would help pay for tests like this for small or cash-strapped departments who otherwise can't afford to investigate cold cases and missing persons. I have no idea whether something like that actually exists or could be set up, though.
 
Ok, after registering to read the article it sounds as if the investigation into look for further bones at the site is closed. Not the investigation to determine who the jaw may belong to. The article also indicated 3 more bones, possibly human have been found at the same site.

It may take several months before DNA is available (4-6 or more.. maybe closer to a year). I'm going to guess they can get an estimate on how long the remains have been there.... and I am unsure on how they can determine if this was an indian burial site or not. How would one make that determination? Would it be based on known indian burial sites? And of course not all would be known..... right? I wish we knew how they make the determination this was a burial site or not. Anyone have any idea's?

jmo
 
Cubby said:
Ok, after registering to read the article it sounds as if the investigation into look for further bones at the site is closed. Not the investigation to determine who the jaw may belong to. The article also indicated 3 more bones, possibly human have been found at the same site.

It may take several months before DNA is available (4-6 or more.. maybe closer to a year). I'm going to guess they can get an estimate on how long the remains have been there.... and I am unsure on how they can determine if this was an indian burial site or not. How would one make that determination? Would it be based on known indian burial sites? And of course not all would be known..... right? I wish we knew how they make the determination this was a burial site or not. Anyone have any idea's?

jmo
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My guess, and I could be totally wrong, is the age of the bones (really really old bones look much different than 30 year old bones) coupled with artifacts found with it (jewelry, pottery pieces, clothing, etc).
 
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