MN - Amir Locke, 22, fatally shot in no-knock raid, Minneapolis, 2 FEB 2022

[Reasonable & Just]

. dbm

 

[Reasonable & Just]

bbm
That is certainly true !
I support people's rights to defend themselves in the event of a home invasion.

If, however, it's LE, it's wise not to have a gun in your hand -- as LE can't predict what you're going to do.
From the msm articles, LE did not fire because the weapon was on his nightstand -- he was holding it.

If they told him to drop it --he may not have listened ?
This entire situation was sad and unfortunate, but it was avoidable.
IF Amir had fired, a LEO might be dead or even someone else in that apartment.
Bullets can travel and a neighbor might have been killed :
4-year-old boy killed in Woodlawn is latest child shot in Chicago - Chicago Sun-Times
Imo.

That's the problem with no-knock - people don't know it's the police breaking into their homes. Needlessly dangerous. As for the possibility that an LEO might be dead if the the man had fired? That didn't happen, though. Mr. Locke was the one who was killed, and for no good reason.

 

[LietKynes]

That's the problem with no-knock - people don't know it's the police breaking into their homes. Needlessly dangerous. As for the possibility that an LEO might be dead if the the man had fired? That didn't happen, though. Mr. Locke was the one who was killed, and for no good reason.

bbm
Good point. ^^^

But I'd imagine LE identified themselves, correct ?
From the articles it sounded like even though AL didn't fire his gun, he had it in his hand ?
Wouldn't LE perceive this as a threat ?
Imo.

 

[LietKynes]

This wasn't an execution. I don't want to live in a world where LE does not have tools to protect themselves. Moo.

Ita.
The question as always is : Should LE wait until Amir had fired his gun first, to establish that he was indeed a threat ?
I'd imagine LE's procedures dictate otherwise.

LE did find evidence that may tie into the murder in St. Paul, so they had reason for a 'no knock' warrant.
This was a by the book action, and it doesn't look like LE were at fault for doing their job.

This is a sad outcome, but showing LE you have a gun in your hand often will not turn out well.
If told to drop it, you need to listen.

What if LE didn't have time to give the the order to drop the gun ?
If AL had his weapon in hand he had ample time to fire it at LE.
Again I don't think LE should have to wait and not defend themselves, but just to hope for the best.
There's a split second to react in this situation : Do you not defend yourself and instead ... hope the perp doesn't shoot ?

MOO.

 

[LietKynes]

Well, the point is to shoot them before they shoot you.

I can't see how any cop would be in trouble over this since they had a warrant. Not sure what they are going to do about that type of warrant though. Seems like there are cases where there is no way LE should announce their presence. Best bet to avoid this situation is not to be around any criminals.

bbm
Ita.
There was a lot of evidence found at that apartment, that was connected to the murder by (I think) Amir's relative ?
Imo.

 

[Smkd]

bbm

Lavender bolded : Actually, in Amir Locke's case, LE did not, "...barge it guns blazing...".
That is not how it happened, there's bodycam footage released by LE to support this.

They did not shoot until they saw the gun in Amir's hand.
They acted within protocol for the situation.


Green bolded : Respectfully, there is another view.
There is nothing "mental" about LE acting in a manner to defend themselves in an extremely hostile situation.
No one should expect LE to wait until the perp fires the first shot.
If that were the case, we might not have a police force at all and every man or woman for themselves.
Complete lawlessness without justice.

If it weren't for LE, there'd be no civilized society and instead there'd be anarchy which might give rise to a dictatorship.
Imo.

BBM

That is absolutely not what I said or what I insinuated at all, I thought it was fairly clear from my post. But just to clarify, I will quote the post you are referring to and further explain my point.

“Here in the UK they also execute search warrants when they know people have guns inside […] There are specialist armed police teams that do that, and they manage to announce that they are there […] I’m sure that law enforcement in the US is perfectly capable of doing this too. It’s absolutely mental that people see this as normal and justify it like there’s no other way of doing it.”

I did not mean to suggest that in situations where the people inside are likely to have firearms the police shouldn’t have firearms. I also didn’t mean to suggest that I think that police shouldn’t fire when a firearm is pointed at them. Maybe I could’ve explained better. As I mentioned, police in the uk also have firearms in those situations and I’m sure they’d fire too if it was necessary.

What I said is mental is the fact that no knock warrants are a fairly standard procedure for a lot of police forces in the us, and is accepted and even defended as it is the case here.
When I say “fairly standard” I don’t mean to say that they happen all day every day, but that they are a tool that is used by law enforcement with some regularity.
When I say that it’s accepted I mean that seemingly, a non insignificant amount of people seem to be ok with police barging into private residences in the middle of the night without announcing that they are about to come in wether the residents like it or not.

As I explained there are other ways of doing this effectively, without requiring the police to be sitting ducks.
It’s also worth considering that much like in this case there could be innocent bystanders in the house, including children and the elderly. And law enforcement makes mistakes too, it wouldn’t be the first time that they got the wrong house. I can’t imagine how traumatic it would be for that to happen in the safety of your own home, and it’s hard for me to understand why it is accepted when there are other more sensible ways (in my opinion) to do is.

 

[Smkd]

bbm
Good point. ^^^

But I'd imagine LE identified themselves, correct ?
From the articles it sounded like even though AL didn't fire his gun, he had it in his hand ?
Wouldn't LE perceive this as a threat ?
Imo.

Not sure if you have seen the video but they kind of did? If by announcing themselves you mean 4-5 people shouting over each other unintelligibly. I could not understand anything they said and I haven’t just been woken up from a deep sleep. Which I’m sure adds to the confusion, since you’d hope that for a situation like this the police would have a “designated shouter” in order to not make a volatile, dangerous and unexpected situation even more disconcerting and messy.

If a group of people kicked my door down and started shouting things I could not understand I sure wouldn’t think it’s the police.

 

[deugirtni]

Couldn't they have put surveillance on the 3 subject properties, and watch for when the suspect was thought to be there? But in that case, how easy/not easy would it have been to mix up the suspect for one of the suspect's relatives? Just thinking out loud.

 

[Apollo]

1 dead, 5 injured in shooting near Normandale Park in Northeast Portland

The shooting happened near Normandale Park. According to flyers circulated on social media, a group of demonstrators had gathered at the park for a “Justice for Amir Locke” event. Minneapolis police killed the 22-year-old Locke after serving a no-knock warrant on a downtown apartment Feb. 2.

Several demonstrators on scene told OPB they saw a person come out of a nearby home and confront a group of about 50 protesters. The person then reportedly shot at the crowd of people. It was not immediately clear if more than one person used a weapon.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

This outcome here was foreseeable and is inevitable with no knocks. It unnecessarily creates a dangerous situation. Having a warrant may make it legal but doesn't make it right. In the end, they were able to arrest Speed without incident without using a no knock.

No-knock warrants: Growing consensus in law enforcement is risks outweigh rewards - CNN

 

[Apollo]

This outcome here was foreseeable and is inevitable with no knocks. It unnecessarily creates a dangerous situation. Having a warrant may make it legal but doesn't make it right. In the end, they were able to arrest Speed without incident without using a no knock.

No-knock warrants: Growing consensus in law enforcement is risks outweigh rewards - CNN

I wouldn't exactly describe it as 'without incident'.

''On February 6, 2022, officers located Speed in Winona, Minnesota. When officers approached Speed, he attempted to run away. An officer grabbed Speed’s jacket. Speed struggled out of his jacket but was stopped and arrested. Officers searched Speed’s jacket. Speed had a loaded gun in his jacket.''

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

I wouldn't exactly describe it as 'without incident'.

''On February 6, 2022, officers located Speed in Winona, Minnesota. When officers approached Speed, he attempted to run away. An officer grabbed Speed’s jacket. Speed struggled out of his jacket but was stopped and arrested. Officers searched Speed’s jacket. Speed had a loaded gun in his jacket.''

Okay, without anyone being shot.

 

[Apollo]

16-year-old charged in connection to death of Otis Elder | kare11.com


Second teen charged in connection to Otis Elder's death
Using cell phone data, investigators also placed the teenager near the scene of Elder's murder minutes before someone called 911 to report the shooting. The suspect's phone was also traced to a cell phone tower near the Bolero Flats apartment building at the time the Mercedes was dropped nearby, according to the criminal complaint.

On Feb. 18, the documents say a report from the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension found that the major DNA profile found the blue Tommy Hilfiger jacket matched a known DNA sample from the 16-year-old suspect.

According to another criminal complaint, the teen has a criminal history and was charged with felony burglary in December 2021.

 

[Charlot123]

Well, the point is to shoot them before they shoot you.

I can't see how any cop would be in trouble over this since they had a warrant. Not sure what they are going to do about that type of warrant though. Seems like there are cases where there is no way LE should announce their presence. Best bet to avoid this situation is not to be around any criminals.

This was my first though, @Gardenista. My second one was, with the housing and rental prices nowadays, maybe people who are not criminals but poor are compelled to lodge with criminals, or in crime-laden areas, and carry guns? And sleep with guns under the pillows? I understand, this shooting was not premeditated, the victim merely ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time, but it was his, only, life.

 

[Shamrock1]

This was my first though, @Gardenista. My second one was, with the housing and rental prices nowadays, maybe people who are not criminals but poor are compelled to lodge with criminals, or in crime-laden areas, and carry guns? And sleep with guns under the pillows? I understand, this shooting was not premeditated, the victim merely ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time, but it was his, only, life.

Lodging with criminals, living in crime-laden areas, and sleeping with a gun are not crimes. And even if they were, the justice system decides the punishment - not LE.

 

[IceIce9]

Lodging with criminals, living in crime-laden areas, and sleeping with a gun are not crimes. And even if they were, the justice system decides the punishment - not LE.

It’s a dangerous lifestyle and a person would put themselves at risk.

 

[Shamrock1]

It’s a dangerous lifestyle and a person would put themselves at risk.

That sounds dangerously close to blaming a rape victim for wearing a short skirt.

 

[ilovewings]

This outcome here was foreseeable and is inevitable with no knocks. It unnecessarily creates a dangerous situation. Having a warrant may make it legal but doesn't make it right. In the end, they were able to arrest Speed without incident without using a no knock.

No-knock warrants: Growing consensus in law enforcement is risks outweigh rewards - CNN

They need to get rid of "no-knocks"-- they are dangerous and needless deaths of innocent people occur too often. It is so damn simple you cannot believe they still carry out such an inane action.

 

[PrairieWind]

They need to get rid of "no-knocks"-- they are dangerous and needless deaths of innocent people occur too often. It is so damn simple you cannot believe they still carry out such an inane action.

I don't think they should be banned entirely. They can be necessary is some cases. But they need to be a rare occurance. Judges need to do a better job in scrutinizing them.

 

[IceIce9]

That sounds dangerously close to blaming a rape victim for wearing a short skirt.

Not at all. But most of us don’t put themselves in such dangerous situations that we have to sleep with a gun.