MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #12

[thenotebook]

Disappointing that Sanner won the race. I don't know anything about the opponent but at least he promised more resources on these cold cases. Sigh.

 

[Matthew1026]

I have used up my free access. Any summary please.

Just clear your browser cache and you will have access.

 

[aliensporebomb]

Just clear your browser cache and you will have access.

Yep - clear cookies and offline files - (pull down under tools to internet options, under browsing history select delete, then select the first four options).

 

[cGorg]

Is this a reference to binary vision (i.e. seeing everything in black and white terms)? Or does it have something to do with facial recognition using binary patterns (i.e. Local binary patterns, Computer vision)

In a previous post, Thread #6, Post #963, facial recognition software was used to find out who the guy from Ohio was. Has anyone tried using this software with the sketches from Jared's case?

That's a great idea. Thought of it myself but don't know how to use the software but it would be interesting to see what the sketch yields.

 

[cGorg]

S

The tires could have been bought anywhere. Why St. Cloud?

That's true. 'St.Cloud' by Kevin's testimony via Joy's Blog. But I would think working concentrically from inside out....checking the local tire stations would have been a rudimentary line of investigation. If, at the very least, to rule out any tires purchased recently in the nearby geographical area. If none matched, then the assumption would be the car is out of state or the vicinity at least. Maybe others here can attest to whether or not a tire track can be discerned as 'new' or 'worn'. Seems to me LE chased Kevin's tracks for 14 years until he came forward and then turned 180 to DR....or did they? It's hard to tell. If the car theory was pursued for 14 years, then why the questioning of DR in the earlier years? Which brings me to "Kevin"....his 'action' and 'inaction' have caused much confusion. If the entire investigation hinged on HIS tracks, then what does that say about him? Him knowing LE was looking at tire tracks as a clue to the perp. And what does that say about LE that they couldn't find Kevin in 14 years...if ever? I don't buy Kevin's story or LE's story -hook, line, or sinker.

 

[Trackergd]

That's true. 'St.Cloud' by Kevin's testimony via Joy's Blog. But I would think working concentrically from inside out....checking the local tire stations would have been a rudimentary line of investigation. If, at the very least, to rule out any tires purchased recently in the nearby geographical area. If none matched, then the assumption would be the car is out of state or the vicinity at least. Maybe others here can attest to whether or not a tire track can be discerned as 'new' or 'worn'. Seems to me LE chased Kevin's tracks for 14 years until he came forward and then turned 180 to DR....or did they? It's hard to tell. If the car theory was pursued for 14 years, then why the questioning of DR in the earlier years? Which brings me to "Kevin"....his 'action' and 'inaction' have caused much confusion. If the entire investigation hinged on HIS tracks, then what does that say about him? Him knowing LE was looking at tire tracks as a clue to the perp. And what does that say about LE that they couldn't find Kevin in 14 years...if ever? I don't buy Kevin's story or LE's story -hook, line, or sinker.

It is one of the easier things to do in print recognition, determining new tires from older tires. If you look at a new set of tires, the have what appear to be "whiskers" sticking out. These are from the molding process, the small ports where the rubber is injected into the mold and are called "sprues". Even if worn down from a week or two, they would produce specific marks in the tire track..."nubs" or (as we call them) "pocks". They should have been quite obvious, even to an untrained eye. Second would be the prints would be very sharp and defined. The lugs or sipes would be sharp, not rounded. One of the other secrets to aging a tire from the print is the "wear bar" or "wear indicator" that is cast into the tire tread pattern. It tells you how worn the tire is for the purposes of replacement. This shows up in the print and can be used to estimate if the tire is newer or older. As I understand it, the FBI and some larger state LE labs have this down to a science. A somewhat new technology in print evaluation and evidence storage is the use of an articulating CMM (coordinate measuring machine) with a laser scanner, such as a Romer or Faro (the same way they scan the floor of a car to create those nifty but expensive floor mats). About a 40+ grand machine. Laser area scanners are now used to create 3D models of crime scenes.

Disagree or not, something about Kevin is not adding up. If there were no "new tire" prints in that driveway, something is wrong with his story. Was DR ever shown a picture of Kevin's other car? If LE can determine the make, model and color, they could still show DR a promo picture and see if he remembers seeing that style car in his driveway at any time. If that sparks some recognition, the manufacturer can provide the make and model of the tire that was standard. It's a basic starting place. It would provide the tire size/width which could be compared to the print field. Ruling Kevin in or out is not a wasted effort. And as a very wise friend of mine just noted to me on another case, not to assume that LE knows more than we do.

 

[nmogren]

Kevin's tracks weren't the only new tracks. They were the only unknown tracks on the driveway. Once they were identified 14 years later, a new direction was taken in the case to take another look at locals that could have been on foot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Trackergd]

Kevin's tracks weren't the only new tracks. They were the only unknown tracks on the driveway. Once they were identified 14 years later, a new direction was taken in the case to take another look at locals that could have been on foot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RBBM

I guess I would not know how many old and new tracks were in the driveway since LE has declined to share. I am not going to take their word for it since I cannot verify who looked at them and their level of competency, AND because for 14 years LE had no idea who they belonged to until the individual who allegedly made them came forward and "just happened" to mention it to someone in LE at an event.

I would not buy that in a made for TV movie, much less in real life.

 

[nmogren]

RBBM

I guess I would not know how many old and new tracks were in the driveway since LE has declined to share. I am not going to take their word for it since I cannot verify who looked at them and their level of competency, AND because for 14 years LE had no idea who they belonged to until the individual who allegedly made them came forward and "just happened" to mention it to someone in LE at an event.

I would not buy that in a made for TV movie, much less in real life.

Suit yourself.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Dave K]

RBBM

I guess I would not know how many old and new tracks were in the driveway since LE has declined to share. I am not going to take their word for it since I cannot verify who looked at them and their level of competency, AND because for 14 years LE had no idea who they belonged to until the individual who allegedly made them came forward and "just happened" to mention it to someone in LE at an event.

I would not buy that in a made for TV movie, much less in real life.

I know of no evidence discovered from the tracks in DR's driveway, except the report that "Kevin" came forward in 2003 and from there, LE discounted the use of a vehicle in the abduction, which as I've said before, makes absolutely no sense to me.

DR states that another car, of a relatively specific description traveled the driveway and turned around in the area at the top of the driveway during the day. I've heard no information concerning that car from LE. DR also states in a videotaped TV interview that he is confident that if LE would find that vehicle, they will find Jacob's abductor. I don't know anything about 'why' he thinks that that is the case; and/or, what LE makes of it.

DR states - another car (Not Kevin's), that was a smaller, dark car, also turned around in the driveway, on the night of the abduction, and just around the time of the abduction. No information from LE on that vehicle.

Kevin states that he drove the driveway, just after the abduction, and the only information we have on that from LE, is that - Kevin came forward. And, for this reason they changed their theory of the case(?).

I would expect that on a driveway like DR's that there are probably a well established set of tire tracks, that developed over a period of time, in which, the majority of vehicles that travel the driveway, would stay somewhat within that set of established tracks, and that become pretty 'packed' over a period of time. So, to some extent, every car that travels the driveway, is driving over whatever set of tracks was left by the previous driver. For this reason, if Kevin drove the driveway, the way he states, then, basically, he drove over whoever else had just driven before him. So, if Jacob's abductors had used a vehicle, in the driveway, then, Kevin had driven over their tracks. I don't know to what extent, any track specialists can determine anything from overlapped tracks on such a surface.

So, under those circumstances, if the perpetrator(s), used a vehicle, then, within a few minutes, Kevin drove over those tracks, well, all that means is that Kevin drove over the tracks made by the perpetrator's vehicle. I don't see where that eliminates the existence of another vehicle. If Kevin drove that driveway, he would have in fact driven over whatever tracks were made by the last driver; who would know whether that was a vehicle used in the abduction or not?

So, in that case, it would pretty much only be, any tracks, which went outside of the set of established, packed tracks that would be distinguishable; and, I expect that to some extent, a Tracker can establish how fresh or old a certain track may be, but, I don't know to what extent.

Also though, DR gave descriptions of the two cars that he described, one during the day, one at night, and how they turned around at the top of the driveway, and Kevin gave a description of how he turned around in the driveway, so, in the wide area at the top of the driveway, where the various vehicles would have turned around, there may have been some more possibility of determining 'separate' tracks; but, I know of no information from LE that sheds any light on the matter.

My issues with Kevin's tracks and his story are that, he states the tires (his girlfriend's car) were New, and installed 1 week earlier by a local dealer in a neighboring town. I can't understand why LE never uncovered that. Also, that his story places him at the crime scene within minutes of the crime, therefore having a major impact on the crime scene, and that the rest of his story, happened within the first 20-30 minutes after the crime was reported; and that, with limited information for us and for LE to go by, that Any/All Information relating to that time frame, in that location is critical to knowing what happened. I don't believe or expect that Kevin is or should be a suspect. Not certain what to make of him; but, would like to be able to clear up the circumstances of that time frame and location, in order to be able to understand what happened. I expect that Kevin exists, as someone said, 'Joy interviewed him' and whatnot, but, that doesn't necessarily explain to us, what is/was his role in the events; and, it doesn't eliminate the possibility that his existence is something somewhat different than described.

 

[nmogren]

I know of no evidence discovered from the tracks in DR's driveway, except the report that "Kevin" came forward in 2003 and from there, LE discounted the use of a vehicle in the abduction, which as I've said before, makes absolutely no sense to me.

DR states that another car, of a relatively specific description traveled the driveway and turned around in the area at the top of the driveway during the day. I've heard no information concerning that car from LE. DR also states in a videotaped TV interview that he is confident that if LE would find that vehicle, they will find Jacob's abductor. I don't know anything about 'why' he thinks that that is the case; and/or, what LE makes of it.

DR states - another car (Not Kevin's), that was a smaller, dark car, also turned around in the driveway, on the night of the abduction, and just around the time of the abduction. No information from LE on that vehicle.

Kevin states that he drove the driveway, just after the abduction, and the only information we have on that from LE, is that - Kevin came forward. And, for this reason they changed their theory of the case(?).

I would expect that on a driveway like DR's that there are probably a well established set of tire tracks, that developed over a period of time, in which, the majority of vehicles that travel the driveway, would stay somewhat within that set of established tracks, and that become pretty 'packed' over a period of time. So, to some extent, every car that travels the driveway, is driving over whatever set of tracks was left by the previous driver. For this reason, if Kevin drove the driveway, the way he states, then, basically, he drove over whoever else had just driven before him. So, if Jacob's abductors had used a vehicle, in the driveway, then, Kevin had driven over their tracks. I don't know to what extent, any track specialists can determine anything from overlapped tracks on such a surface.

So, under those circumstances, if the perpetrator(s), used a vehicle, then, within a few minutes, Kevin drove over those tracks, well, all that means is that Kevin drove over the tracks made by the perpetrator's vehicle. I don't see where that eliminates the existence of another vehicle. If Kevin drove that driveway, he would have in fact driven over whatever tracks were made by the last driver; who would know whether that was a vehicle used in the abduction or not?

So, in that case, it would pretty much only be, any tracks, which went outside of the set of established, packed tracks that would be distinguishable; and, I expect that to some extent, a Tracker can establish how fresh or old a certain track may be, but, I don't know to what extent.

Also though, DR gave descriptions of the two cars that he described, one during the day, one at night, and how they turned around at the top of the driveway, and Kevin gave a description of how he turned around in the driveway, so, in the wide area at the top of the driveway, where the various vehicles would have turned around, there may have been some more possibility of determining 'separate' tracks; but, I know of no information from LE that sheds any light on the matter.

My issues with Kevin's tracks and his story are that, he states the tires (his girlfriend's car) were New, and installed 1 week earlier by a local dealer in a neighboring town. I can't understand why LE never uncovered that. Also, that his story places him at the crime scene within minutes of the crime, therefore having a major impact on the crime scene, and that the rest of his story, happened within the first 20-30 minutes after the crime was reported; and that, with limited information for us and for LE to go by, that Any/All Information relating to that time frame, in that location is critical to knowing what happened. I don't believe or expect that Kevin is or should be a suspect. Not certain what to make of him; but, would like to be able to clear up the circumstances of that time frame and location, in order to be able to understand what happened. I expect that Kevin exists, as someone said, 'Joy interviewed him' and whatnot, but, that doesn't necessarily explain to us, what is/was his role in the events; and, it doesn't eliminate the possibility that his existence is something somewhat different than described.

Once again, it is imperative to read the case files. That is where I have gained most of my knowledge. I do not go by Kevin's or DRs statements.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[scotgirl]

What case files? the police ones (i would love to read those) or the case discussion on here. There were very few witnesses/ people involved on the night. I don't see the point in getting them to lay out a detailed, step by step statement of what they knew/saw and then totally discounting everything they say. What are you left with then. Noone else was there. By all means take it with a pinch of salt but they are the only ones who were there/saw something.

 

[nmogren]

What case files? the police ones (i would love to read those) or the case discussion on here. There were very few witnesses/ people involved on the night. I don't see the point in getting them to lay out a detailed, step by step statement of what they knew/saw and then totally discounting everything they say. What are you left with then. Noone else was there. By all means take it with a pinch of salt but they are the only ones who were there/saw something.

The first page of every thread on here is loaded with FACTS about this case, please read.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Sasquatch321]

I think 25 years is long enough. LE must deliver all known evidence and interview dialogues with suspects and witnesses to the public library. Give the case to John Walsh and his team of detectives. It is how they solved his own sons murder. What happened to Jacob and where can we find him? Can dans information that he hasnt shared yet help us?

 

[Trackergd]

Rehashing the information available is precisely what "discovered" the new tires on Kevin's GF's car and their possible impact on the print field. We still don't know exactly what it means, but it does somehow impact this case, if only in a minor way. New eyes looking at old evidence frequently bears fruit.

Just me, but at this juncture, Kevin may not be the actor, but I am not convinced that he is not a "spoiler" introduced into the investigation to muddy the water or by "others" for reasons unknown to us at this time. He's way to neat and convenient a package to be random.

 

[nmogren]

In re reading some of the case files and media links myself, I just learned something new. From the time of the 911 call to the police arriving at the Wetterling home was only 7 minutes. I hadn't read that before. Not long to disappear with an 11 year old child. I would have to say-a hidden car straight to the interstate or right into DR's house.

 

[Trackergd]

In re reading some of the case files and media links myself, I just learned something new. From the time of the 911 call to the police arriving at the Wetterling home was only 7 minutes. I hadn't read that before. Not long to disappear with an 11 year old child. I would have to say-a hidden car straight to the interstate or right into DR's house.

OK... How long was it from when Jacob was abducted to the 911 call? How long did it take for the boys to run home, calm down enough to tell the story, the adults to process it and then to make the phone call? An estimate is reasonable at this point. Add that to the 7 minutes, agree?

 

[nmogren]

Of course. The boys say they ran all the way home and told the babysitter, she said she immediately called her father next door and he called 911.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[scotgirl]

In re reading some of the case files and media links myself, I just learned something new. From the time of the 911 call to the police arriving at the Wetterling home was only 7 minutes. I hadn't read that before. Not long to disappear with an 11 year old child. I would have to say-a hidden car straight to the interstate or right into DR's house.

It's only my opinion but i think it was the latter, a hidden car straight onto the interstate

 

[Trackergd]

Of course. The boys say they ran all the way home and told the babysitter, she said she immediately called her father next door and he called 911.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good, we are working together on this. We have an established 7 min. What would be the distance from the ditch to the home? I would submit that the boys were in a state of shock, panic and out of breath. How long for them to blurt out the details for the sitter? How long for her to make sense of the information and to call the parents? How long for the parents to react, short conversation between them and possibly others, process such a horrible piece of news and call 911? Lets add that up and see what we think. I am thinking at least an additional 7+ min. Would you agree that 15 min is enough time for an abductor to exit the crime scene? If not, lets discuss and come to a consensus.