MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #5

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cGorg

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Kevin is a city kid? Do you know who Kevin is?

I have never heard where he lives. Where is that?

No, I don't know Kevin. I was speculating....."IF" Kevin is a city kid
 

cGorg

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human,
i grew up in a town of 1,000 people. i lived in the 'city'. the farm kids called us kids who lived in town....'city kids'....because even though it's a farming community, life on the farm and life in the 'city' was completely different with different perceptions....hence my speculation that Kevin was a 'city' kid.
 

human

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human,
i grew up in a town of 1,000 people. i lived in the 'city'. the farm kids called us kids who lived in town....'city kids'....because even though it's a farming community, life on the farm and life in the 'city' was completely different with different perceptions....hence my speculation that Kevin was a 'city' kid.

that is a distinction for sure. DR was on a farm, but Jacob was in the cul de sac. Not a farm. So, it's pretty mixed right in that neighborhood.

i wonder where the land came from for the cul de sac?

Kevin was no 16, so he would have to know the difference between a driveway and a road. Plus, he was with his girlfriend. You would think she would know what was at the end of the road.
 

cGorg

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that is a distinction for sure. DR was on a farm, but Jacob was in the cul de sac. Not a farm. So, it's pretty mixed right in that neighborhood.

i wonder where the land came from for the cul de sac?

Kevin was no 16, so he would have to know the difference between a driveway and a road. Plus, he was with his girlfriend. You would think she would know what was at the end of the road.

yes, mixed is a good way to put it. I'm sure a farmer sold a portion of his land for the cul-de-sac. Kevin must be a 'city kid' because I think he mentioned thinking it was a road on Joy's blog. Too bad you won't access Joy's blog...there's been alot of info posted there. I understand the concern however...the digital world is definitely not private.
 

human

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Here is a post made by Marlin from Joy's blog. Can anyone figure out where this swamp and party place are? Kevin has to be familiar with this area.

This was taken directly from Joys website concerning the "party spot":

When I mentioned those cars to Kevin, the first thing he asked me was, “Were there people in them?” I guess I had assumed so… but wanted to know why he asked. He mentioned it because there was a party place back in the woods at that time… across the road from Rassiers’ place. Kids would park along the driveway and walk across the street, into the woods, out of sight, where there was a bonfire pit. It was surrounded by sheets of corrugated tin so the cops couldn’t see the glow of the fire from the road. Bench seats from old cars were used for seating around the fire pit. (I wondered who had hauled them back there. It sounded more like a homeless camp than a party spot.)

Kevin had only been there one time… before he was old enough to drive. (He remembers this because he and a buddy had ridden their bikes there.) Sometime during the night, the cops showed up, walking with flashlights through the woods, so everyone took off running. “So the cops knew about this place?” I asked Kevin. He assumed so, since they had been the ones to chase them out of there. I wondered whose land it was, but he said he wasn’t sure. He thought it may even have been public land, because there was a swamp back there, surrounded by makeshift bike trails and jumps. Kevin had a buddy that lived in the apartments that overlooked the swamp, so they used to ride their bikes back there all the time when they were kids. I wondered who else knew about this place… a secret place where kids often hung out. I wondered if Jacob and his friends knew about the spot. And I wondered if maybe there had been a party going on that evening… October 22, 1989.

I asked Dan if he knew about the party spot. He did not. However, he did point out that whenever he or his parents would find cars parked along their driveway at night, they usually had people in them. Couples, in particular. And most of the time, the couples were parked far enough down the driveway so they couldn’t be seen from the road. It wasn’t until the Rassiers happened-upon the cars with their headlights that they would even know they were there. After Jacob, however, all those shenanigans abruptly stopped. Lover’s Lane was officially closed for business.

So… who can help me answer my questions about about this party spot? Who owned it? Did it still exist in 1989? Certainly the volunteers conducting the ground search would have discovered it, wouldn’t they have?
 

shergal

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Good points.

I am not sure how much light would be reflected off that city, though. St. Could was much different back then. And I would not call St. Joe a city.

They were right by the perp, so that is far different than seeing a few blocks away.

St. Cloud is 8 miles away. And St. Joe is not a "bright lights" city by any means. It's basically one main street with a few bars, a couple small stores, coffee house. St. Ben's College is across the street from the businesses and the St. Joseph Catholic Church and Rectory are on that side also. The college may be well lit now, but back in 1989, not so much.

I guess I always thought the perp used one of the boy's flashlights to look at their faces, but maybe not. That could be verified also.
 

shergal

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Yes, St. Joseph about 6,500 people so a small town really. I use the term 'city lights' loosely. One thing about Minnesota though is there's houses scattered all over so lots of yard lights. DR's light is too far away to have any effect. It is a good question though about Ben....how could he see those 2 guys? I'm sure a person could look during the Fall and check it out but probably not a very good idea if too close to October 22.

I was going to suggest we could all meet there in Oct and check out how much could be seen around 9 pm. But nah, tooooo scary.
 

human

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This is from Joy's blog. Kevin knew exactly that it was a driveway.

So why drive up the driveway and not just back up and turn around. Or turn around in the road? Very weird to me to go up someone's driveway.

Anyway, here is the quote from her blog:

Kevin, on the other hand, decides to turn left (south) and see if there are any flashing lights down that direction. He gets as far as Rassiers’ driveway and knows it’s a dead end after that, so he decides to pull in and turn around. He pulls ALL THE WAY INTO THE DRIVEWAY and turns around by the light pole which is down by the house.
 

midwestphd

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The perp could have left the scene after the boys returned to the Wetterling home. It would have taken a couple minutes for the perp to get Jacob in a car, secure him in the car (remember, the final footprints indicated that Jacob was resisting at this point), and then take off.

A good point. Forcing the kids to abandon the bikes might have been part of such a plan. The perp might have had a pretty good estimate of how long it would have taken them to get back to the house. It's possible.

Of course, DR would have a good idea of how long it would take to traverse the route, as he ran all over the area. But that doesn't really fit with the car scenario unless he had an accomplice.

I still think some of these minor details can tell us something. Like the fact that the perp didn't force Jacob to remove his reflective vest, which I've mentioned before. The perp wasn't worried about Jacob being seen--he was getting inside, either a car or a building, quickly. And the decision to have the boys abandon the bikes in the ditch. Obviously, this is to delay them as much as possible, but it also points to careful planning. He looks over the boys one-by-one, and lets Aaron and Trevor run away one-by-one, not together. This may have been to get them to think Jacob was following behind them. But, it also sort of adds confusion to the already terrifying sequence of events.

If only there were answers. :banghead:
 

shergal

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I would definitely share it if I knew how to link it....I don't. Maybe shergal can link it? (the news article posted by Joy's blog on 'suspicious cars')

Here you go...
 

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human

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Here you go...

Thanks Sher.

The article is confusing.

Were these cars seen passing the boys ?

If so, I agree with Joy that it is incredible that emphasis was not put on this cars.

Were these cars ever found?
 

human

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Here is another person from a comment on Joy's blog. Any info on this guy?

Anyone have a picture of him?

There was a man arrested for burglary in St. Cloud a year and a half after Jacob’s abduction. When
police ran a criminal history check on him, they found he had victimized young boys in his past. He lived closer to the abduction site than we do, but police did not know about this person at the time.
– U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, Bureau of Justice Statistics, National Conference on Sex Offender Registries, Proceedings of a BJS/SEARCH conference, April 1998, NCJ-168965, Paper presented by Patty Wetterling, “The Jacob Wetterling story,” at page 15. [http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/Ncsor.pdf]
The State of Minnesota vs. DAVID STEVEN PARKER (TEMPE, AZ 85821)
DOB: 03/20/1969
Case No. 73-K1-91-000492
Date Filed: 02/20/1991
Location: Stearns county, MN
The State of Minnesota vs. DAVID STEVEN PARKER (SCOTTSDALE, AZ 85251)
DOB: 03/20/1969
Case No. 05-K5-91-000349
Date Filed: 05/07/1991
Location: Benton county, MN
 

cGorg

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Here is a post made by Marlin from Joy's blog. Can anyone figure out where this swamp and party place are? Kevin has to be familiar with this area.

This was taken directly from Joys website concerning the "party spot":

When I mentioned those cars to Kevin, the first thing he asked me was, “Were there people in them?” I guess I had assumed so… but wanted to know why he asked. He mentioned it because there was a party place back in the woods at that time… across the road from Rassiers’ place. Kids would park along the driveway and walk across the street, into the woods, out of sight, where there was a bonfire pit. It was surrounded by sheets of corrugated tin so the cops couldn’t see the glow of the fire from the road. Bench seats from old cars were used for seating around the fire pit. (I wondered who had hauled them back there. It sounded more like a homeless camp than a party spot.)

Kevin had only been there one time… before he was old enough to drive. (He remembers this because he and a buddy had ridden their bikes there.) Sometime during the night, the cops showed up, walking with flashlights through the woods, so everyone took off running. “So the cops knew about this place?” I asked Kevin. He assumed so, since they had been the ones to chase them out of there. I wondered whose land it was, but he said he wasn’t sure. He thought it may even have been public land, because there was a swamp back there, surrounded by makeshift bike trails and jumps. Kevin had a buddy that lived in the apartments that overlooked the swamp, so they used to ride their bikes back there all the time when they were kids. I wondered who else knew about this place… a secret place where kids often hung out. I wondered if Jacob and his friends knew about the spot. And I wondered if maybe there had been a party going on that evening… October 22, 1989.

I asked Dan if he knew about the party spot. He did not. However, he did point out that whenever he or his parents would find cars parked along their driveway at night, they usually had people in them. Couples, in particular. And most of the time, the couples were parked far enough down the driveway so they couldn’t be seen from the road. It wasn’t until the Rassiers happened-upon the cars with their headlights that they would even know they were there. After Jacob, however, all those shenanigans abruptly stopped. Lover’s Lane was officially closed for business.

So… who can help me answer my questions about about this party spot? Who owned it? Did it still exist in 1989? Certainly the volunteers conducting the ground search would have discovered it, wouldn’t they have?

google earth easily shows a body of water to the west of the abduction site. between this swamp and the abduction site is a treeline of woods. i assume the party spot was in the midst of these woods. it's also interesting to note that the 'artist' had his car parked near that swamp...'looking for things to sketch'. the police sketch of the artist has been discussed here before...he doesn't look like an artist to me...MOO
 

cGorg

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This is from Joy's blog. Kevin knew exactly that it was a driveway.

So why drive up the driveway and not just back up and turn around. Or turn around in the road? Very weird to me to go up someone's driveway.

Anyway, here is the quote from her blog:

Kevin, on the other hand, decides to turn left (south) and see if there are any flashing lights down that direction. He gets as far as Rassiers’ driveway and knows it’s a dead end after that, so he decides to pull in and turn around. He pulls ALL THE WAY INTO THE DRIVEWAY and turns around by the light pole which is down by the house.

looks like your instincts were correct about Kevin. Yes, why not simply turn into DR's driveway only a few feet, back out, then go north on 16th? if he knew it was a dead end....why drive ALL THE WAY INTO THE DRIVEWAY?
 

cGorg

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I was going to suggest we could all meet there in Oct and check out how much could be seen around 9 pm. But nah, tooooo scary.

shergal, that's really what should be done. not sure if a group of people doing it would be a good idea but to verify the conditions would be worth knowing to end the speculation. i'm sure it's uncomfortable for anyone to stop in this area to investigate as one would appear to be 'lurking' and especially if Jerry or Patty were to drive by. I have a feeling one could sense the frightening aspects of the abduction by simply visiting that area in the dark.
 

cGorg

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A good point. Forcing the kids to abandon the bikes might have been part of such a plan. The perp might have had a pretty good estimate of how long it would have taken them to get back to the house. It's possible.

Of course, DR would have a good idea of how long it would take to traverse the route, as he ran all over the area. But that doesn't really fit with the car scenario unless he had an accomplice.

I still think some of these minor details can tell us something. Like the fact that the perp didn't force Jacob to remove his reflective vest, which I've mentioned before. The perp wasn't worried about Jacob being seen--he was getting inside, either a car or a building, quickly. And the decision to have the boys abandon the bikes in the ditch. Obviously, this is to delay them as much as possible, but it also points to careful planning. He looks over the boys one-by-one, and lets Aaron and Trevor run away one-by-one, not together. This may have been to get them to think Jacob was following behind them. But, it also sort of adds confusion to the already terrifying sequence of events.

If only there were answers. :banghead:

midwestphd...well put and I remember your original comment about the reflective vest...nobody had thought of it. Your description shows that the perp had a steely presence of mind in a tight time frame or was simply a very big risk taker( I think the former). A military man? To me, the abduction would be analagous to a battlefield experience. 3 soldiers taken by surprise in the dark and being captured and not knowing your fate would be of the highest stress level....and even way worse for 3 innocent boys expecting to watch a movie in a few minutes.
 

human

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I don't know if this wasn't just a crime of opportunity.

Are you familiar with the term , " deer fever"?

It is rather silly as deer are such a problem in Minnesota and can even be seen walking down city streets. When some hunters get into the woods, they get "deer fever" . That means they become overstimulated with the idea of the hunt and do foolish things like shooting their friends or relatives because they are in this heightened sense of arousal.

I imagine it is the same for the hunter of children. I am not willing to assign the perp a degree of master criminal. I think the perp was flying high emotionally and not being precise and rational.

I think TV and movies have raised the idea of some kind of master criminal.

Think of your own self and how many mistakes you make in daily life. Dropping something you don't realize you dropped. Forgetting to do something even as simple as putting a stamp on an envelope. I don't think people can make good executive decisions in higH emotion situations. That is why we see some of the tragic issues in the military and that is with training,
 

human

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Here is what Joy write on April 13, 2013,which is totally different than what she wrote in the info I posted above.

I get so upset with people playing games about this case. We have people with secret information who claim to be so helpful and wanting to do what is write, but they only tease with info. It is sickening. Here is what she writes this time,


Kevin drove all the way into Rassiers’ driveway because he didn’t realize it was a driveway. From 16th Avenue, the driveway actually looks like a dirt road. It’s a quarter mile long and goes down a hill before curving left behind the trees. The entire farm sits behind the trees, so you can’t even see the farm or house from the road. I’m attaching a photo that shows the view from 16th Avenue so you can see what I mean.
 

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This is from Joy on May 12. What sense does this make? The yard light, which previously had been discussed as being on, is now turned off in this version. And lo and behold, Smokey is barking! Her words are below:


Agreed. I don’t think this is how it happened at all. I’m still convinced that whoever took Jacob saw those boys going **TO** the Tom Thumb (way down by Rassiers’ place), and waited for them to come back. I’m also convinced they had a car. To make Dan’s eyewitness testimonies jive with my theory, I think there was someone on foot somewhere between Wetterlings’ house and Rassiers’ driveway on the night Jacob was abducted. I think he overheard the boys’ plans to go to the Tom Thumb, then took action. He would have known he had about a half hour before they returned (10 minutes to get there, 10 minutes to pick out a movie, and 10 minutes to get back). He got into his small, dark, compact car, pulled into Rassiers’ driveway to turn around so he’d be facing the road in order to make a quick getaway (circling away from the yard light so he wouldn’t be seen), then stashed the car halfway up Rassiers’ driveway so it couldn’t be seen from the road. I don’t think he was worried about being seen, because I think this person knew the Rassiers were gone on a European vacation at the time. Maybe he found out from family, friends, neighbors, or even a blip in the church bulletin. Who knows? At any rate, the house would have been dark when he pulled into the driveway, since Dan had turned the light off when Smokey start to bark and he he heard a car pulling up the road/driveway.
 

human

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Can anyone figure out where this could be? This is from Joy's blog

Twenty three years ago, on October 22, 1989, Kevin was 21 years old and had been invited for dinner at his girlfriend’s house. She was a year older than him and living with her mother at their home in St. Joseph. He remembers that their backyard butted-up to Minnesota Street and was just a few blocks off County Road 75 (the main drag through St. Joe).
 
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