MO - Furious Friends Demand Answers After 3 Men Found Dead at Kansas City Home Days After Watching Football Game, January 2024 #4

[NCWatcher]

Bbm.
Yes, I understand what you're saying.

If LE said no foul play -- than there wasn't.

But, imo, it's still baffling under what circumstances all three ended up out there, and died.
One person I could see, but three of them ?
All at once ?

If only one died, the others might have been able to call for help or something.
It's the saddest and oddest case I've read about in a long time.

The families are still in a lot of pain -- but at some point maybe JW will counter-sue ?
He still has to go on with his life.
Omo.

If I were a family member, I'd want to know what happened. And maybe I'd be making accusations too. I really don't think so but I'm not in that situation.

I can easily see the men going outside to smoke if they were smokers. Pictures in an earlier thread showed LOTS of cigarettes butts around the porch area so it appears that was a regular smoking area. I think if I were JW, I'd have put ashtrays/sand buckets out there (!) but I can see asking people to smoke outside (& given the house was a rental, smoking indoors may have been a lease violation.) Or if the men didn't smoke tobacco, they might have stepped outside to smoke marijuana.

If the dose of fentanyl in each man was as high as the family member said they'd been told by LE (3 times the lethal limit) I don't think there was a chance of any of the 3 calling for help even if they'd been inside. The cold may have played a role in their deaths but I'm not sure it would have affected how quickly they became incapacitated from large doses of fentanyl.
MOO

 

[Howl]

If the dose of fentanyl in each man was as high as the family member said they'd been told by LE (3 times the lethal limit) I don't think there was a chance of any of the 3 calling for help even if they'd been inside. The cold may have played a role in their deaths but I'm not sure it would have affected how quickly they became incapacitated from large doses of fentanyl.

From UC health.org: "Fentanyl is a very powerful medication. Depending on the amount of ingestion or the strength of ingestion, and the potency of the amount that was ingested, it can happen in a matter of minutes. We talked about the effect of fentanyl on breathing so that stopping breathing and lack of oxygen means that a patient can pass away in a matter of minutes."

"A matter of minutes" is not precise, of course, but I think the author is trying to convey that death can can happen incredibly FAST, faster than most people realize.

 

[LadyL]

JW works or worked from home, so i guess he could live someplace else and do his job.

Idk if he is back at work yet or not. So, that's why the difference tenses on work.

ETA: although idk if he even needs to worry about moving away. He lives in a city. He could just move to a different neighborhood. A lot of people aren't going to recognize him as connected to any of this imo (i don't think i would recognize him if i saw him, for example).

oh yes I forgot he worked from home

 

[grannygates]

The DEA put out a warning in April 2022 about “mass fentanyl poisonings”. I only heard about that other one in the apartment where everyone died except for the one woman (I think someone brought it up on this thread earlier on).


“Fentanyl-related mass-overdose events, characterized as three or more overdoses occurring close in time and at the same location, have happened in at least seven American cities in recent months, resulting in 58 overdoses and 29 deaths.“

https://www.dea.gov/press-releases/2022/04/06/dea-warns-increase-mass-overdose-events-involving-deadly-fentanyl

 

[IceIce9]

Bbm.
Yes, I understand what you're saying.

If LE said no foul play -- than there wasn't.

But, imo, it's still baffling under what circumstances all three ended up out there, and died.
One person I could see, but three of them ?
All at once ?

If only one died, the others might have been able to call for help or something.
It's the saddest and oddest case I've read about in a long time.

The families are still in a lot of pain -- but at some point maybe JW will counter-sue ?
He still has to go on with his life.
Omo.

If all three ingested fentanyl then it is not at all unlikely that all three died, and they could have gone unconscious st the same time.

Fentanyl DrugFacts | National Institute on Drug Abuse

Offers basic facts about the synthetic opioid Fentanyl including how it is abused, its effect on the brain, and other health effects.

nida.nih.gov

When people overdose on fentanyl, their breathing can slow or stop. This can decrease the amount of oxygen that reaches the brain, a condition called hypoxia. Hypoxia can lead to a coma and permanent brain damage, and even

 

[apeXperience]

I wrote the following in January and it is more relevant now. I no longer could quote, unfortunately. Hence, I re-post.
These are 4 known facts of life about fentanyl:
1. DEA Warns of Increase in Mass-Overdose Events Involving Deadly Fentanyl
Sourced DEA dot gov
https://www.dea.gov/press-releases/...*advertiser censored*-overdose-events-involving-deadly-fentanyl
“the Drug Enforcement Administration sent a letter to federal, state, and local law enforcement partners warning of a nationwide spike in fentanyl-related mass-overdose events.”

This means, everything else equal, cases of multiple people killed simultaneously after taking fentanyl are getting more common.
Mass deaths similar to what happened to the 3 Kansas football fans are more common.
But we do not know yet if fentanyl was involved in this Kansas case.

2. Fentanyl may impair breathing minutes before its sedative effect kicks in
Sourced at medical news today dot com
Opioids: How fentanyl affects the brain and impairs breathing”

This means, everything else equal, most people who take fentanyl want to go outdoor to get fresh air and catch their breath BEFORE they fall asleep.

3. There are cases of Mass-Overdose Events when those who go outside died and those who stayed indoor survived
Sourced ABC news dot com

At least 3 dead in Pittsburgh drug-overdose horror ​

At least three people died and four others were hospitalized in serious to critical condition after overdosing on drugs in Pittsburgh.

abcnews.go.com



“At least 3 dead in Pittsburgh drug-overdose horror [...]
One man was found passed out in the street outside the apartment building and later died, police said at a news conference. Another victim was found unresponsive in an elevator, according to authorities. When police officers went inside the apartment where the drugs were allegedly taken, they found five other people in need of medical assistance, authorities said.”

This means, everything else equal after taking fentanyl, 1) the most respiratory distressed went out and died but 2) those less distressed who did not need fresh air stayed indoor and survived.

4. Fentanyl is similar to morphine and heroin, but is 50 to 100 times more potent
Fentanyl Exposure Risks for Law Enforcement and Emergency Response Workers
Sourced at cdc dot gov
Fentanyl Exposure Risks for Law Enforcement and Emergency Response Workers | Blogs | CDC
“Fentanyl is a powerful synthetic drug that is similar to morphine and heroin, but is 50 to 100 times more potent. Fentanyl and its analogs, such as carfentanil, can pose a potential hazard to law enforcement, emergency medical personnel, and firefighters who could come into contact with these drugs through the course of their work day.”

This means, everything else equal: 1) for one “amount” of heroin that makes you fall asleep in 100 minutes, 2) the same “amount” of morphine will make you fall asleep in 50 minutes, and 3) the same “amount” of fentanyl will make you fall asleep in 1 minute!
This is how very dangerous fentanyl is.
You might fall asleep while driving within minutes of taking it!

 

[Wallendo]

deleted by me

This means, everything else equal: 1) for one “amount” of heroin that makes you fall asleep in 100 minutes, 2) the same “amount” of morphine will make you fall asleep in 50 minutes, and 3) the same “amount” of fentanyl will make you fall asleep in 1 minute!
This is how very dangerous fentanyl is.
You might fall asleep while driving within minutes of taking it!

Actually, potency has nothing to do with onset of action. It simply means that you need a lower dosage by weight to accomplish the same result. All opiates when taken intravenously, nasally or by inhalation have a very rapid onset (morphine has a slightly slower onset of action, but that is unrelated to potency). Opioids generally produce the same effects when taken in equivalent doses, but sometimes have their own unique side effects. The reason synthetic opioids are routinely used in medicine is due to specific complications related to drugs like morphine, codeine and demerol which can cause problems in certain settings.

The real issue specifically related to Fentanyl is that very small quantities are used, typically measured in nanograms. For Fentanyl used medically, these preparations are made with rigorous standards of quality and precise measurements. For illegal Fentanyl, most drug dealers are not accurately measuring nanogram quantities and overdose risks are increased.

 

[sunspun]

The real issue specifically related to Fentanyl is that very small quantities are used, typically measured in nanograms. For Fentanyl used medically, these preparations are made with rigorous standards of quality and precise measurements. For illegal Fentanyl, most drug dealers are not accurately measuring nanogram quantities and overdose risks are increased.

I just can't understand how the amounts of Fentanyl used are so small. If u think about it, in street use, there'd have to be enough to be able to package it up somehow (like in a baggie), and then the user has to be able to work it up into a shot (for IV use)... I mean, how is anything possible w/amounts so small they're measuring it in nanograms? An IV user mixes theirs with water in order to inject it, so that makes it sound like even one drop of water would be too much. I guess I can see it better if it's cocaine or heroin w/fentanyl added to it, but I thought some people's drug of choice was fentanyl by itself. Maybe when they say it takes mere nanograms to kill you, maybe they really mean it's always possible to die from the tiniest amount of it, but that sometimes (usually?) they'll do a normal size amount and be ok (by normal, I mean a dose equal to whatever a dose of heroin or whatever is). Does that mean that it's just that Fentanyl is more likely to be contaminated, or somehow some of it is more likely to be lethal than is true w/other street drugs? But that they can otherwise use it and not die?

I think I'm obviously missing something here, cuz that didn't make sense. Is Fentanyl always lethal in nanogram size doses?

 

[Cedars]

I just can't understand how the amounts of Fentanyl used are so small. If u think about it, in street use, there'd have to be enough to be able to package it up somehow (like in a baggie), and then the user has to be able to work it up into a shot (for IV use)... I mean, how is anything possible w/amounts so small they're measuring it in nanograms? An IV user mixes theirs with water in order to inject it, so that makes it sound like even one drop of water would be too much. I guess I can see it better if it's cocaine or heroin w/fentanyl added to it, but I thought some people's drug of choice was fentanyl by itself. Maybe when they say it takes mere nanograms to kill you, maybe they really mean it's always possible to die from the tiniest amount of it, but that sometimes (usually?) they'll do a normal size amount and be ok (by normal, I mean a dose equal to whatever a dose of heroin or whatever is). Does that mean that it's just that Fentanyl is more likely to be contaminated, or somehow some of it is more likely to be lethal than is true w/other street drugs? But that they can otherwise use it and not die?

I think I'm obviously missing something here, cuz that didn't make sense. Is Fentanyl always lethal in nanogram size doses?

Street drugs aren't ever 100% pure, any more than alcohol, OTC medicines, etc...they're mixed with something, somewhat benign like 5% drug to 95% baking soda, or maybe not so benign, users just don't know.

Also, apparently it's being smoked.

Landmark study from UW finds ‘negligible’ risk from fentanyl smoke on buses, trains

This study comes over a year after KIRO 7 investigations found a staggering number of people smoking fentanyl on transit buses.

www.kiro7.com

Maybe another reason 3 guys were outside?

JMO

 

[deadfoot13]

I just can't understand how the amounts of Fentanyl used are so small. If u think about it, in street use, there'd have to be enough to be able to package it up somehow (like in a baggie), and then the user has to be able to work it up into a shot (for IV use)... I mean, how is anything possible w/amounts so small they're measuring it in nanograms? An IV user mixes theirs with water in order to inject it, so that makes it sound like even one drop of water would be too much. I guess I can see it better if it's cocaine or heroin w/fentanyl added to it, but I thought some people's drug of choice was fentanyl by itself. Maybe when they say it takes mere nanograms to kill you, maybe they really mean it's always possible to die from the tiniest amount of it, but that sometimes (usually?) they'll do a normal size amount and be ok (by normal, I mean a dose equal to whatever a dose of heroin or whatever is). Does that mean that it's just that Fentanyl is more likely to be contaminated, or somehow some of it is more likely to be lethal than is true w/other street drugs? But that they can otherwise use it and not die?

I think I'm obviously missing something here, cuz that didn't make sense. Is Fentanyl always lethal in nanogram size doses?

BBM

A good friend of mine has a daughter who uses fentanyl as her drug of choice. Fentanyl lollipops are her favorite, but she will also do something with fentanyl patches to extract the drug and inject it.

I'm not an expert by any means, but I believe there is a difference between medical grade fentanyl and what is found on the street. Even so, neither is safe for recreational use.

MOO.

 

[Wallendo]

After reviewing my previous post, I need to make a correction. Fentanyl dosing is in micrograms not nanograms. Sorry for any confusion.

These are still very small amounts of chemical.

 

[IceIce9]

“People both knowingly consume fentanyl and other synthetic opioids and unknowingly consume them when they are mixed into or sold as other drugs,” reports the NIH. “Using a drug that has been contaminated with or replaced by fentanyl can greatly increase one's risk of overdose.”

You would scarcely be able see that lethal two milligram speck of fentanyl. And, yes, that would be, according to the federal Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), enough to kill you! Just two milligrams—or 0.00007 ounces.

'If You Can See It, It Can Kill You' | Jackson County Combat, MO

Get the facts about fentanyl, the synthetic opioid largely responsible for the surge of overdose deaths in the United States.

www.jacksoncountycombat.com

 

[10ofRods]

BBM

A good friend of mine has a daughter who uses fentanyl as her drug of choice. Fentanyl lollipops are her favorite, but she will also do something with fentanyl patches to extract the drug and inject it.

I'm not an expert by any means, but I believe there is a difference between medical grade fentanyl and what is found on the street. Even so, neither is safe for recreational use.

MOO.

Fentanyl is fentanyl. It is a molecule, it has a particular chemistry. It is what it is.

Personally, I believe that all the street level fentanyl is. bio-identical with what chemists and coroners call "fentanyl." The most common source is pharmaceuticals that have gone out of control. Lots of articles (news and otherwise) bout this.

Medical fentanyl is fentanyl. People stealing fentanyl from their relatives is a thing. The pharmacy nearest me has been broken into twice in the last month. They keep very low stock of fentanyl (so that it takes several days to fulfill a prescription if it is medically authorized).
https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-relea...torney General Rob,role in the opioid crisis.
How opiates enter the market from the 'regular" pharmaceutical companies is a topic worth googling.

If you can find a link showing that "medical grade" fentanyl is chemically different from street fentanyl, I'd be much obliged. To me, chemistry is chemistry and manufacturing fentanyl is not street level.

IMO.

 

[moslym3]

Do you guys think we are going to eventually get an official story of what authorities think happened?

 

[IceIce9]

Do you guys think we are going to eventually get an official story of what authorities think happened?

IMO I think we have the official version. They died because the drugs they were taking included fentanyl.

It doesn’t matter whether someone uses drugs recreationally, occasionally, daily, or for the first time. Using drugs is always risky.

 

[Cedars]

Do you guys think we are going to eventually get an official story of what authorities think happened?

I'm reposting this very helpful summary and link from a few pages back:

MO - Furious Friends Demand Answers After 3 Men Found Dead at Kansas City Home Days After Watching Football Game, January 2024 #4

Posting this article for those that have not kept up with (like me) this case in a while. I suspect this informative article has already been posted many pages back. :) ... In the meantime, Harrington, McGeeney and Johnson’s families met with the Platte County prosecutor on Wednesday. An...

www.websleuths.com

What I interpret it as meaning is, the detailed police findings will only come out if prosecutors charge someone and present the evidence in court.

In a different case in MO, a dealer was charged with 2nd degree murder for overdose deaths: "In Missouri law, if you're selling drugs and you kill somebody, that's murder."

Murder suspect appears in court, opioid epidemic continues to grow in Missouri - ABC17NEWS

A Columbia man was charged Thursday with felony second-degree murder for two October fentanyl overdoses.

abc17news.com

However, I don't believe the deaths are assigned to the Homicide Division. For one, the drug squad will investigate, not homicide detectives. Secondly, if they can't pin it on someone, and catch them, the case won't sit on the books as cold case murders.

ETA: sorry, I may have linked to the wrong WS post, I have amended that link (same poster @macktheknife)
JMO

 

[10ofRods]

From UC health.org: "Fentanyl is a very powerful medication. Depending on the amount of ingestion or the strength of ingestion, and the potency of the amount that was ingested, it can happen in a matter of minutes. We talked about the effect of fentanyl on breathing so that stopping breathing and lack of oxygen means that a patient can pass away in a matter of minutes."

"A matter of minutes" is not precise, of course, but I think the author is trying to convey that death can can happen incredibly FAST, faster than most people realize.

A very low dose of fentanyl renders patients unconscious or semi-conscious/unable to move or think when getting, say, an angiogram. It's pretty amazing how it incapacitates the brain.

Many of us old folks have experienced it.

IMO. (It is often less than 15 seconds before the patient is unresponsive - although they may still be having some conscious sensations, they won't be if when the dose is totally absorbed into the body).

If it's as large a dose as what was reported in this case, then yes, death could be quite prompt - but incapacitation and a comatose or semi-comatose state would be expected. Because that's what fentanyl does and why people out in the public ought not to be using it for recreational purposes.

IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

Do you guys think we are going to eventually get an official story of what authorities think happened?

No. Because this was a case of accidental overdose which, by and large, is not treated as a crime in the US when the overdoser is dead. At best, it's unintentional suicide and typically, no reports are released to the public if it is not made a criminal (or sometimes, a civil) case.

 

[PrairieWind]

No. Because this was a case of accidental overdose which, by and large, is not treated as a crime in the US when the overdoser is dead. At best, it's unintentional suicide and typically, no reports are released to the public if it is not made a criminal (or sometimes, a civil) case.

I'm going to disagree a bit. I don't believe any of the deceased were "known" fentanyl users. Doesn't mean they weren't but not widely known. So I think it is likely that they consumed a substance that they did not know was fent or had the level it did. That is a crime. SHOULD it be pursued as a crime for whoever provided the substance? Yes, depending on how Missouri law handles that. It can be a murder charge where I am now to provide a substance that someone overdoes on and dies from. But does KC PD have the manpower and willingness to pursue it? Who knows. If one of the three deceased brought the substance, there there probably is no way to determine where it came from. And I am wondering police aren't find that is the case.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

You can be charged in MO for supplying drugs to someone who overdoses.

Murder charges filed against Jefferson City man following overdose death

The man faces charges of second degree murder and distribution of a controlled substance.

www.komu.com

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/missouri/articles/2020-10-08/missouri-man-charged-in-drug-overdose-death-of-woman