Springrain
Who was she? Pregnant & stabbed to death
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Can't they be tested to see if they are maternally related? They should do that, if they haven't already.
MO MO - West Alton, WhtFem 2-3, 1282UFMO, in suitcase in river, Feb'68
- Thread starter Ms Suzanne
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carbuff
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Theoretically, yes, but neither one of them has DNA in the system, apparently. They've only just exhumed the child's remains, so it will be months if not longer before hers is available. I don't know whether there are any plans to get the woman's DNA.
Springrain
Who was she? Pregnant & stabbed to death
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Oh, that's unfortunate. I hope they are exhumed soon.
cvaldez1975
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This isn't too far from where I'm from, so I've felt I should give a little more personal investment into researching this.
All I know is that searching through all these records is absolutely soul crushing. There just doesn't seem to be enough records for missing kids in a large range from 1960-1969.
The findagrave has a description I don't remember seeing before: "Description: blonde hair, scar above one eye, one abnormally large tooth." Particularly the large tooth detail.
I've tried searching records for people reported missing after 1968 since sometimes people don't report their family missing until years later since they lose contact with them.
Maybe she lived with her mom who lived a generally quiet existence and no distant relatives even knew they were missing. Maybe the mom was a transient or a prostitute and did this because she thought she couldn't handle raising the kid, and the nature of her lifestyle would mean her own family didn't know she had a child.
Edit: Here's a reaching thought... I read she was weighted down with 10lb weights. A person might not go out and buy weights just for this task which could mean they were owned and already lying around.
A man that lifts would probably have heavier weights than 10lb-ers lying around. Unless the 10lb ones were used for easy fit into the suitcase, why use them if you could use something heavier? But, a woman with some interest in working out might be more likely to use 10lb weights. Why use 10lb ones if you could weight something better with two 25lb plates? Or two 20lb dumbbells? (I don't know what kind of weights were used, whether dumbbells, plates, or something else.) Barbell plates typically come in 5lb, 10lb, 25lb, and 45lb. These thoughts are coming from the fact that I lift and rarely have need for four 10lb plates in any situation.
Edit 2: The findagrave description does say something about "barbells, used for exercising."
Edit 3: Anybody interested in looking at maps of West Alton, be aware that there was an Old Clark Bridge in Alton at that time, which has been replaced by a newer bridge. I can't remember how far apart the bridges were from each other. A note on the newer clark bridge page says the old one was upstream.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Bridge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Clark_Bridge
As per one of the descriptions on findagrave: "The suitcase was found about 50 yards off U.S. 67 near the south end of the Lewis and Clark Bridge over the Mississippi river."
All I know is that searching through all these records is absolutely soul crushing. There just doesn't seem to be enough records for missing kids in a large range from 1960-1969.
The findagrave has a description I don't remember seeing before: "Description: blonde hair, scar above one eye, one abnormally large tooth." Particularly the large tooth detail.
I've tried searching records for people reported missing after 1968 since sometimes people don't report their family missing until years later since they lose contact with them.
Maybe she lived with her mom who lived a generally quiet existence and no distant relatives even knew they were missing. Maybe the mom was a transient or a prostitute and did this because she thought she couldn't handle raising the kid, and the nature of her lifestyle would mean her own family didn't know she had a child.
Edit: Here's a reaching thought... I read she was weighted down with 10lb weights. A person might not go out and buy weights just for this task which could mean they were owned and already lying around.
A man that lifts would probably have heavier weights than 10lb-ers lying around. Unless the 10lb ones were used for easy fit into the suitcase, why use them if you could use something heavier? But, a woman with some interest in working out might be more likely to use 10lb weights. Why use 10lb ones if you could weight something better with two 25lb plates? Or two 20lb dumbbells? (I don't know what kind of weights were used, whether dumbbells, plates, or something else.) Barbell plates typically come in 5lb, 10lb, 25lb, and 45lb. These thoughts are coming from the fact that I lift and rarely have need for four 10lb plates in any situation.
Edit 2: The findagrave description does say something about "barbells, used for exercising."
Edit 3: Anybody interested in looking at maps of West Alton, be aware that there was an Old Clark Bridge in Alton at that time, which has been replaced by a newer bridge. I can't remember how far apart the bridges were from each other. A note on the newer clark bridge page says the old one was upstream.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Bridge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Clark_Bridge
As per one of the descriptions on findagrave: "The suitcase was found about 50 yards off U.S. 67 near the south end of the Lewis and Clark Bridge over the Mississippi river."
carbuff
Well-Known Member
That's a good point about the weights.
Lifting was not common in 1968. Serious athletes in many sports thought that too much muscle bulk would hurt their speed and flexibility, so most of the lifters were wrestlers, boxers, football linemen, etc. And very few women lifted at all. This was pre-Title IX so opportunities for sports were limited, and nobody wanted to look like Herculena in the side show. Though I think lots of people had what were basically "toy" weights around the house. I know we did--it was something my brother got for Christmas one year when my grandparents couldn't think of anything better to give a young teenager. I don't remember much about it beyond that it did include a barbell and some light plates with a defective mechanism so that every time you lifted, the plates fell off. My mother eventually threw it into one of the sheds. They're probably still there.
Lifting was not common in 1968. Serious athletes in many sports thought that too much muscle bulk would hurt their speed and flexibility, so most of the lifters were wrestlers, boxers, football linemen, etc. And very few women lifted at all. This was pre-Title IX so opportunities for sports were limited, and nobody wanted to look like Herculena in the side show. Though I think lots of people had what were basically "toy" weights around the house. I know we did--it was something my brother got for Christmas one year when my grandparents couldn't think of anything better to give a young teenager. I don't remember much about it beyond that it did include a barbell and some light plates with a defective mechanism so that every time you lifted, the plates fell off. My mother eventually threw it into one of the sheds. They're probably still there.
Jake479
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Jack, who was formally known as Paul Fronczak, has a missing twin sister named Jill. Could this be her? facebook.com/whoispaulfronczak
Interesting theory. More backstory for those of us without facebook:
http://www.lasvegasnow.com/news/i-team-mans-identity-revealed-50-year-old-mystery-solved
Gourami Watcher
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Got an update from NamUs today. The DNA testing has completed for Jane Doe, but was unsuccessful. Really disappointed.
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The St. Charles County Police Department asked if they could use my image. They intend to rebury this unknown child this weekend, and the press will be there to cover the memorial service.
She said that the anthropologist estimated the girl's age at about 2 years old, and I had her looking closer to about 4-5. So I revised the image, making her body much smaller in proportion to her head, and giving her more of a baby face.
She said that the anthropologist estimated the girl's age at about 2 years old, and I had her looking closer to about 4-5. So I revised the image, making her body much smaller in proportion to her head, and giving her more of a baby face.
I was sent a pm photo of this little girl, and asked to do a reconstruction.
Here is my estimation of what she looked like in life.
The photos don't give any hint of her hair length or style, so the dual pigtails are my artistic license.
cvaldez1975
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Roselvr
Ask me how to get your loved one in NamUs
I gave Pamela Reed his story back when this aired; I believe she passed it onto NCMEC since he has a missing twin sister. I'm not sure what was done with it.
I've always loved her recon, you did a great job.
Little girl's remains from 1968 West Alton case to be reburied, but mystery about her death lingers - From staff reports Nov 3, 2016
Onfortuneswheel
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Not with the locks and dams along the river. It's more likely that the suitcase was dropped in the river somewhere past Lock and Dam 25. The other possibility is that the suitcase was dropped into the Illinois.
Pop Pop
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italianbella
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How can no one know who this adorable little girl is? How can nobody miss her?
Ty. I was about the lock and dams go I've been there a handful of times on not going to pretend to know where they are other than in Alton.
As for the unidentified female that was towed by the boat and brought to shore in st Louis County..m I know exactly where that is. Bee Tree park Oakville, mo 63129
By river and by car just miles away from the JB Bridge... which in turn by river, when you look at the river or at least what it's spands in the st. Louis metropolitan area, the JB bridge is really not that far from Alton, tho bee tree park as much closer to the JB bridge... I'm just sayin
So I got to thinking what we know that could tie this unknown woman to this unknown child.
St Louis at this Time was going through a major major change. the World War II vets, parents of the Baby Boomers, were having a mass Exodus out into the suburbs so they could have their picket fence and they're 2.5 kids. This would have meant areas such as West Alton and Oakville (where the unidentified woman was brought ashore) were booming in development growth n population especially of white caucasians. I will have to do some research but I would think the same could be said about the neighbor and communities in Illinois just over the Mississippi. I know that there's Alton Cahokia Columbia Belleville running along the Mississippi I want to say it goes up to like Washington Park Brooklin Sauget... I'm racking my brain for hold a small municipalities of run up and down Route 3 come out like I said I'll have to do some research and get back. I've all those communities the only one I really know of is Columbia in Cahokia and Columbia somewhat new comparable with Oakville. Cahokia has been around since before God was a boy, home to the historical Cahokia Mounds in the area also had a very strong Native American presence, but I don't know what it would have been around 1968 and I'm not sure that it matters but I thought it'd be worth mentioning.
In regards to the Gill girl, I'm not sure what what is meant by a troop of gypsies. Cape Girardeau was a smaller town , a college town. Come to think of it my dad would have been a college around that time In that town I'll have to remember to ask him if he remembers anything like 'gypsies.' what gypsies would want with cape is beyond me other than maybe they could make Camp there far enough out from the city where nobody would notice but then why come into the city trying to lure kids away. IDK going to have to look into that as well.
also railroad track line the Mississippi on both sides multiple tracks multiple lines. going to have to look into that as well... imma have to make a checklist here
that being said let me get on this before I forget
hopefully BRB
As for the unidentified female that was towed by the boat and brought to shore in st Louis County..m I know exactly where that is. Bee Tree park Oakville, mo 63129
By river and by car just miles away from the JB Bridge... which in turn by river, when you look at the river or at least what it's spands in the st. Louis metropolitan area, the JB bridge is really not that far from Alton, tho bee tree park as much closer to the JB bridge... I'm just sayin
So I got to thinking what we know that could tie this unknown woman to this unknown child.
St Louis at this Time was going through a major major change. the World War II vets, parents of the Baby Boomers, were having a mass Exodus out into the suburbs so they could have their picket fence and they're 2.5 kids. This would have meant areas such as West Alton and Oakville (where the unidentified woman was brought ashore) were booming in development growth n population especially of white caucasians. I will have to do some research but I would think the same could be said about the neighbor and communities in Illinois just over the Mississippi. I know that there's Alton Cahokia Columbia Belleville running along the Mississippi I want to say it goes up to like Washington Park Brooklin Sauget... I'm racking my brain for hold a small municipalities of run up and down Route 3 come out like I said I'll have to do some research and get back. I've all those communities the only one I really know of is Columbia in Cahokia and Columbia somewhat new comparable with Oakville. Cahokia has been around since before God was a boy, home to the historical Cahokia Mounds in the area also had a very strong Native American presence, but I don't know what it would have been around 1968 and I'm not sure that it matters but I thought it'd be worth mentioning.
In regards to the Gill girl, I'm not sure what what is meant by a troop of gypsies. Cape Girardeau was a smaller town , a college town. Come to think of it my dad would have been a college around that time In that town I'll have to remember to ask him if he remembers anything like 'gypsies.' what gypsies would want with cape is beyond me other than maybe they could make Camp there far enough out from the city where nobody would notice but then why come into the city trying to lure kids away. IDK going to have to look into that as well.
also railroad track line the Mississippi on both sides multiple tracks multiple lines. going to have to look into that as well... imma have to make a checklist here
that being said let me get on this before I forget
hopefully BRB
TeyoGayum
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I found this case on NAMUS's cases of the month for November, and I looked into some newspaper archives in the area around the time she went missing. I haven't got any membership or anything for newspapers.com so I can't see the article fully, but here's the link: Newspapers.com search
On the preview of some of the article's which talk about this case, it states that the girl was in fact identified at the time, by the father. This is strange, as the girl had an unidentified grave. I don't know what to think of this, so I thought I should post it on here. For example, "Father identifies body in suitcase".
It might have been a false call, or maybe I'm reading it wrong, but can someone have a look into this for me? I am utterly bewildered.
On the preview of some of the article's which talk about this case, it states that the girl was in fact identified at the time, by the father. This is strange, as the girl had an unidentified grave. I don't know what to think of this, so I thought I should post it on here. For example, "Father identifies body in suitcase".
It might have been a false call, or maybe I'm reading it wrong, but can someone have a look into this for me? I am utterly bewildered.
BoredPsychic
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Any new updates?