Found Deceased MT - Amy Harding-Permann, 34, Great Falls, 26 Jan 2020

[MrsCTeach]

The best I get out of it is that LE did not have nor know where it was and they had a working assumption that she had the phone with her. Also, it seems that Cascade County may not have the ability to initiate a Ping on their own and have to go through the carrier - so that might be what the ATT reference is about. There doesn't appear to be anything in the log indicating either a success or failure. Later whichever officer is 2-09 called her phone and left a voice mail.

01/26/20 22:55:26 | AT APPROX 2252 HRS 2-09 LEFT VM ON PHONE FOR AMY

But we also don't know whether the phone rang or it went straight to voice mail which would give us some insight as to the state of the phone. It is a certainty that whatever location records and activity records exist for her phone LE now has them.

So, for as much information as we can derive from the call log it still leaves much to be desired.

I want to point out, just because it should be since we don't know much at this point, that even if someone doesn't have their phone, they can check their messages on their voicemail from another phone.

Therefore, I don't know that this proves she has her phone, but a desire to leave her a message that she may get to hear.

Edit: Also, there's a note to TRY and ping her phone, but a phone call where a message is left by an officer approximately 30 minutes after the note to try and ping her phone is logged. Obviously we know that it doesn't seem to explain if the phone ended up being "pingable" or any status of how the phone call went (no ring, straight to voicemail, found physical phone somewhere, etc.)

 

[MrsCTeach]

The sheriff made it very clear that they would not release any results of their investigation until it had been thoroughly worked. Social media and the court of public opinion jumped the gun, as they always seem to do. This time, they were wrong. Very wrong IMO

This makes me glad that I don't have social media and only posted here and read news articles.

 

[Alethea]

Thank you for explaining this.
Apparently, in this case the transcript of the 911 call was released but the audio will not be released.
So the 911-transcript doesn't interfere with an active investigation but the 911-audio does?

They would say they handed over the transcript so the media got what they are entitled to under FOIA but LE is not releasing the audio to protect the privacy of the people involved. Or that something heard on the tape was relevant to their investigation. It’s not a blanket requirement to produce evidence. The press can sue if they really want the audio though!

 

[Dave F.]

I want to point out, just because it should be since we don't know much at this point, that even if someone doesn't have their phone, they can check their messages on their voicemail from another phone.

Therefore, I don't know that this proves she has her phone, but a desire to leave her a message that she may get to hear.

Edit: Also, there's a note to TRY and ping her phone, but a phone call where a message is left by an officer approximately 30 minutes after the note to try and ping her phone is logged. Obviously we know that it doesn't seem to explain if the phone ended up being "pingable" or any status of how the phone call went (no ring, straight to voicemail, found physical phone somewhere, etc.)

The purpose of requesting a "ping" from the provider was to locate AHP's phone within the specific narrow cell which provides service to JVG's home. Due to the nature of the cell coverage at that location, if AHP's phone was lying at the back gate of one of the neighboring homes, Verizon would have been able to tell LE which back yard to look in.
The purpose of dialing her number a half hour later was to establish if her phone was anywhere within the Great Falls service area. An individual phone only initiates it's own ping if it transfers from one cell to a stronger cell, and it has been recently used. A new phone call to an "idle" phone will be dropped, but one minute later (on Verizon) the tower will ping that phone again. If it establishes a connection, then the record of the missed call will appear in the phone's call log (but LE would have been informed of the delayed ping, and the location of the arc along which that phone would have been found). This type arc could span several miles, but would be accurate in it's measurement of distance from the tower. JMO

 

[gliving]

A slightly different version of the recent news. It fills in some of the timeline with info from previous articles. I'll post the 911 call part in entirety as it's mostly the official LE account. More at link:

CFS Command log from the night Amy Harding went missing released

UPDATE 2/20/20-

"The Cascade County Attorney’s Office has released the CFS command log from the night Amy Harding went missing.

According to the log, at 8:20 pm on January 26, VanGilder said his girlfriend was intoxicated, ripped his shirt and keeps jumping on him.

The log goes on to read as follows:

01/26/20 20:19:38 | New CFS

01/26/20 20:20:21 | SAID GF IS INTOX

01/26/20 20:20:28 | RIPPED CPS SHIRT

01/26/20 20:20:41 | SAYS SHE KEEPS JUMPING ON HIM

01/26/20 20:20:48 | AMY HERMAN IS FEMALE

01/26/20 20:20:59 | NO WEAPONS

01/26/20 20:21:03 | CP SAID SHE MAY BE LEAVING



An officer is then dispatched at 8:21 pm and arrives at 8:23 pm, two more arriving at 8:28 pm.

Search and rescue was on stand by for a possible ice rescue at 9:35 pm.

01/26/20 21:35:11 | STANDY SEARCH AND RESCUE FOR POSSIBLE ICE RESCUE

01/26/20 21:42:43 | SAR1 STANDBY PAGE SENT OUT

Amy’s phone was pinged at 10:19 pm

01/26/20 22:19:22 | [Phone number redacted] PER BOYD TRY AND PING PHONE

01/26/20 22:20:57 | AMY PHONE WITH AT&T

At 10:46 pm search and rescue deployed a man to cross the river and make sure it was safe before escorting an officer over to check out the island on the river, several officers coming off the island at 2:03 am.

01/26/20 22:46:10 | SAR DEPLOY ICE GUY TO CROSS THE RIVER TO MAKE SURE IT IS SAFE THEN WILL ESCORT 32

01/27/20 02:03:29 | Ho t, Dav d | 31 32 37 42 44 OFF THE ISLAND BACK AT THE HOUSE, 21 DRIVING EAST SIDE OF THE RIVER AND ALL SAR UNITS BACK AT THE HOUSE AS WELL.

Officials left a voicemail on Amy’s phone at 10:55 pm.

01/26/20 22:55:26 | AT APPROX 2252 HRS 2-09 LEFT VM ON PHONE FOR AMY

Police were asked to check an address on 15th Street south to see if Amy had made contact with another woman at 11:48 pm. The log says five minutes later at 11:53 pm the last time they tried to contact the woman they were uncooperative. At 11:54 pm, they called the woman and she seemed like she was not too concerned.

01/26/20 23:48:04 | REQ PD CHECK [Address redacted] 15TH ST S TO MAKE CONTACT WITH A JACQUELIN TO SEE IF SHE HAS HAD CONTACT WITH AMY

01/26/20 23:53:48 | LAST TIME WE TRIED TO CONTACT JACKIE SHE WAS UNCOOPERATIVE

01/26/20 23:54:24 | 2-01 CALLED JACKIE AND SHE SEEMED LIKE SHE WAS NOT TOO CONCERNED, HE ASK THAT WE TRY TO PRESS HER


Homeland Security was asked to fly by with a thermal imager, but they were unable to fly because their helicopter was in maintenance.

01/26/20 23:55:33 | CALL HOMELAND SECURITY SEE IF THEY CAN FLY BY WITH THERMAL IMAGER

01/27/20 00:03:05 | HOMELAND SECURITY ADV WORKING ON A CALL OUT

01/27/20 00:21:17 | HOMELAND SECURITY UNABLE TO FLY (HELO IN MAINTENANCE)

Amy was entered as a missing person at 3:58 am.

01/27/20 03:58:16 | ENTER AMY AS MISSING PERSON

Officers checked several addresses for Amy, all being cleared.

01/27/20 04:34:03 | 2-01 HEADING TO [Address redacted] 25TH AVE NE


01/27/20 04:54:51 | ADDY IS NO GOOD NOW TRYING [Address redacted] RIVERVIEW 3E

01/27/20 04:58:11 | 2-01 CLEAR OF ADDYS

01/27/20 05:59:58 | [Address redacted] RIVERVIEW 8W IS POSS ADDRESS MATTHEW…

01/27/20 09:07:59 | Attempted to make contact with matthew at [Address redacted] Riverview 8 W, no one home, no vehicles n the driveway. Left a card to contact us @0900 hours

An officer contacted Benefis at 8:35 am and learned Amy did not show up for work.

01/27/20 08:35:04 | LEBRUN CONTACTED BENEFIS AND SHE HAS NOT SHOWN UP FOR WORK

The log ends at 5:05 pm on January 28."

 

[Jethro4WS]

Any thoughts on the following?

1) Why did the sheriff and county attorney release the 911 call transcript? Is the release a legal requirement? In what way would this benefit the investigation?

2) I am unable to find any information that AHP was seen by LE after their arrival at the residence.

01/26/20 21:35:11 | STANDY SEARCH AND RESCUE FOR POSSIBLE ICE RESCUE

It is not a legal requirement. Someone (media or an individual) could have made a records request. Montana, like other states, has statutes concerning what records must be released and what exceptions there are. The dispatch log is something that is usually held back to protect on-going investigations. Without an explanation we can only guess as to why it was released.

We can't necessarily presume that it was released because law enforcement wanted it out there, though that is often the case if LE believes it benefits them in some way whether that is to let an individual or individuals know what LE is aware of, or to demonstrate that LE actually conducted a comprehensive search for the victim, to tamp down the rumor mills which have been resulting in useless tips that waste resources running them out, etc. With this case it is hard to read because the Sheriff has been making two-sided statements all throughout.

It could simply be the case that a records request was made and a statutory deadline was missed. For example, in a case I was working on out of Texas I was in a several month battle with the City of San Antonio and the Texas Attorney General. It initially started off as a denial of my request citing 68 statutory exceptions. Usually something like that will dissuade an individual from pursuing it further. I challenged all of those exceptions one by one in an appeal against the Attorney General's office which resulted in 58 exceptions being thrown out leaving 7 that I could appeal again, which I did. During that process San Antonio missed a statutory deadline of 14 days to respond - they responded on the 15th day. Regardless of the exceptions cited in the response missing the deadline is the same as defaulting. This caused the City to pursue an appeal based on the office staff being sent home early due to weather on the 14th day as an exception to missing the deadline. The Attorney General (naturally) agreed. But that put it back to me to appeal on the basis that all the items of the response were dated on the 12th day within the timeline and that nothing prevented the City from responding at any time prior to the deadline they missed. In the discovery, it was learned that the response system is automated and that even if it was otherwise complete earlier it is scheduled to be sent out automatically on the deadline date. As is obvious, this meant that they put the wrong date (one day beyond) for the due date for the response. So, finally after nearly 4 months of a fight I ended up winning due to a mistake.

It also could be due to a mistake being made such as accidentally releasing the dispatch log to a single reporter or news outlet. Once released to anyone you can't put the genie back in the bottle and deny access to the same document(s). In the Jayme Closs case, the Barron County Sheriff's Office had a system where they sent out the dispatch logs to the small town 3-days a week local paper which the newspaper used to write the police blotter column. It was discovered because an article written about the Closs case made a reference "according to the dispatch log" when citing an event in the timeline. Obviously, that newspaper had access to the dispatch log. Other media outlets were not provided the dispatch log. A few little birdies that realized this mistake had been made informed several major media outlets covering the story of the obvious existence of the dispatch log and that it had been released to the local newspaper. Within hours the entire dispatch log had to be released to all of them and that is how the dispatch log in that case ended up being released to the public.

 

[mrstfs]

Regarding the dispatch log... I wish we knew more about what prompted LE to reach out to Jackie (more than once),why she “wasn’t cooperative”, and why she “wasn’t too concerned...”. MOO

CFS Command log from the night Amy Harding went missing released

 

[The Night Watchman]

Regarding the dispatch log... I wish we knew more about what prompted LE to reach out to Jackie (more than once),why she “wasn’t cooperative”, and why she “wasn’t too concerned...”. MOO

CFS Command log from the night Amy Harding went missing released

Just when things were getting clearer...that little tidbit makes things murkier.

 

[Beltonian]

I am still not sure if at least one LE officer laid an eye on Amy for at least a second and saw her running away? I did not find any confirmation for that in any sources. If they did not see her, what reasons are there to believe that all Doctor's words are true? intoxication, attack on him ... Or they clearly heard her on the background screaming and being disruptive? I did not find it either...

 

[mrstfs]

I am still not sure if at least one LE officer laid an eye on Amy for at least a second and saw her running away? I did not find any confirmation for that in any sources. If they did not see her, what reasons are there to believe that all Doctor's words are true? intoxication, attack on him ... Or they clearly heard her on the background screaming and being disruptive? I did not find it either...

IMHO, if even one officer saw her, it doesn’t make sense to me that they would be reaching out to people who didn’t live on that street and checking with her employer the next day. It seems that if someone saw her, they’d know she was heading to the river and therefore would most likely be in the river. JMO

Thinking out loud, let’s say the doctor didn’t call police and Amy didn’t show up for work on Monday. What would be the story? MOO

 

[carbuff]

IMHO, if even one officer saw her, it doesn’t make sense to me that they would be reaching out to people who didn’t live on that street and checking with her employer the next day. It seems that if someone saw her, they’d know she was heading to the river and therefore would most likely be in the river. JMO

Thinking out loud, let’s say the doctor didn’t call police and Amy didn’t show up for work on Monday. What would be the story? MOO

Yeah, but they might not have seen her clearly or might have lost sight of her before she got very far. And when they didn't find her on the way to the river, they'd double back and check all the options to make sure they didn't overlook something.

 

[Beltonian]

But these are two totally different stories. Seeing a glimpse of her running - you can say that all that DR told them most likely is true. If they never saw her or heard her - his words do not have much weight...I wish they would specify.

 

[carbuff]

But these are two totally different stories. Seeing a glimpse of her running - you can say that all that DR told them most likely is true. If they never saw her or heard her - his words do not have much weight...I wish they would specify.

That doesn't make them different stories. It's a gap in our knowledge. While it might point one way or the other, it would hardly be conclusive.

And just because it's a gap in our knowledge doesn't mean it's a gap in theirs.

 

[Thefacelessman]

I feel like this was a staged event. How far could she have made it in 60 seconds??? This is crazy town

More than far enough to not be seen if vehicle arrived from opposite direction....and if coming towards her with sirens on, more than enough time to take cover to side of road.
If there is a turning (road or track) near, she could not be spotted walking, let alone running.

I'm big on statistics. Statistically speaking (and IMO), with what we knew from the LE details, and without the 911 call information that was held back by LE, the boyfriend was more likely than not to have been involved in Amy's disappearance. Based on many similar cases.

Now I would never state that here or anywhere, since the boyfriend is either an innocent victim OR guilty of something. Not a lot of grey area in between those two extremes. And more likely guilty than not is a meaningless phrase unless you are the Patriots.

WS has a lot of smart people with open minds, so quick to judge statements are generally challenged by someone, IMO.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics!
You can distort statistics to support or discredit anything......no statistic makes an 'individual' more or less likely to murder. It's simply that..... an individual choice or action to murder (or harm) somebody.

 

[momsof3]

Regarding the dispatch log... I wish we knew more about what prompted LE to reach out to Jackie (more than once),why she “wasn’t cooperative”, and why she “wasn’t too concerned...”. MOO

CFS Command log from the night Amy Harding went missing released

Just when things were getting clearer...that little tidbit makes things murkier.

Do we know who Jackie is? I may have missed it. If it is a family member, could this family member have fielded this type of call before? Why dismissive?

Honestly, I'm with everyone - if we could hear the audio, we would know pretty much everything by hearing what is the in background - if you "can't separate" there pretty much has to be background noise. If not . . . .

 

[gliving]

Cascade County Sheriff/Coroner's Office
21 hrs ·
The search for Amy Harding continues...
KRTV Great Falls KFBB Great Falls Tribune The Electric


Cascade County Sheriff/Coroner's Office This search today is only one of many leads in this investigation. Yes, we are searching the river, but I have not ruled out any possibilities.
15h

 

[mrstfs]

Do we know who Jackie is? I may have missed it. If it is a family member, could this family member have fielded this type of call before? Why dismissive?

Honestly, I'm with everyone - if we could hear the audio, we would know pretty much everything by hearing what is the in background - if you "can't separate" there pretty much has to be background noise. If not . . . .

We know who she is based on sleuthing the information disclosed publicly in the log but I personally wasn’t saying more because I didn’t want to violate the rules here. MOO

 

[Dave F.]

More than far enough to not be seen if vehicle arrived from opposite direction....and if coming towards her with sirens on, more than enough time to take cover to side of road.
If there is a turning (road or track) near, she could not be spotted walking, let alone running.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics!
You can distort statistics to support or discredit anything......no statistic makes an 'individual' more or less likely to murder. It's simply that..... an individual choice or action to murder (or harm) somebody.

Answering to: "More than far enough to not be seen if vehicle arrived from opposite direction....and if coming towards her with sirens on, more than enough time to take cover to side of road.
If there is a turning (road or track) near, she could not be spotted walking, let alone running."

There is no road in the vicinity, other than Flood Road. There are no intersecting tracks or lanes. The are six neighboring houses. The possibilities are:
1. She followed the river upstream (marked in red)
2. She followed the river downstream (marked in blue
LE checked with all of the neighbors. There is only one spot in either direction where she could have turned and headed up to Flood Road without being detected by neighbor's security measures. She could have headed upstream and crossed over to Buckshot Island. Either direction, and any possibility was dangerous and deadly on a dark, cold night in February for anyone, which was magnified many times by intoxication.
JMO

 

[Jazzy5980]

We know who she is based on sleuthing the information disclosed publicly in the log but I personally wasn’t saying more because I didn’t want to violate the rules here. MOO

Call me crazy but I can’t shake the feeling Amy may have behaved erratically in the past. MOO No, I’m not victim blaming.

 

[iluvmua]

Sadly, I think she is deceased.