Identified! Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #7 Pam Buckley & James P Freund

[Sherwood Park]

I'm all confused with the Oracle/DNA/Matching information, thanks to those who have shared explanations and links on how to understand all of this.

I don't know if this has been asked before, but if they are of British and European heritage (according to the Oracle info and DNA test), do you think it's possible they could be of Irish Traveler heritage?

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Is the reddit discussion in the grateful doe sub?

Yes. That sub doesn't move very quickly. The Sumter County Does thread is still near the top:

Grateful Doe

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Admittedly I have no idea what I am looking at with the Oracle 4 numbers. I'm sure I have plenty of company in that regard. But in a quick glance it appears the Sumter County Does have very good numbers in terms of isolating their heritage, if not necessarily finding out who they were in quick fashion.

I believe low numbers are what we are looking for, after the @. The lower the number the greater the confidence level that the ancestry can be narrowed to that combination. You'll note that the numbers following the @ are always the highest (worst confidence level) using one population, then drop somewhat when using two populations, then drop some more using three populations, and are lowest when using four populations.

However, some Does only drop to @9 or even @14 level when narrowed all the way to four populations. That means we're still in glorified guesswork territory.

The Sumter County Does, on the other hand, are already at @3 level using one population. Both drop well below @2 using four populations. Sumter Jock Doe is @1.67 when using the four population combo of Danish + Irish + Irish + Spanish Cataluna.

Sumter Jane Doe is even better. Her four population number is all the way down to @1.32 when using the combo of Austrian + Irish + Irish + Irish.

I think @1.00000 etc is the lowest we go here, correct? That would mean absolute confidence level. Maybe not. I'm a math guy but it's other realms.

For reference purposes, of the 14 charts of Oracle 4 that DNA Doe Project has so thoughtfully provided so far among active cases, only one has better numbers than Sumter County Jane Doe. That would be Chattanooga John Doe, who begins below @3 at one population and drops all the way to @1.09 at four populations. There's one more Doe who has similar numbers to Sumter County Jock Doe, in the @1.67 range.

If I got this all wrong, well...it's interesting to look at anyway. There was greater variance than I anticipated.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Sorry it took so long to get the Oracle 4 results posted - but Sumter County Jane & John Doe are there now. Will work on getting some more up today. Have to fit this in to working on cases!
O4-SumterJohn.jpg
and O4-SumterJane.jpg

One minor matter: Atop the spreadsheet you list him as Sumter Jock Doe. On Oracle 4 it is Sumter John.

 

[leilarose68]

Admittedly I have no idea what I am looking at with the Oracle 4 numbers. I'm sure I have plenty of company in that regard. But in a quick glance it appears the Sumter County Does have very good numbers in terms of isolating their heritage, if not necessarily finding out who they were in quick fashion.

I believe low numbers are what we are looking for, after the @. The lower the number the greater the confidence level that the ancestry can be narrowed to that combination. You'll note that the numbers following the @ are always the highest (worst confidence level) using one population, then drop somewhat when using two populations, then drop some more using three populations, and are lowest when using four populations.

However, some Does only drop to @9 or even @14 level when narrowed all the way to four populations. That means we're still in glorified guesswork territory.

The Sumter County Does, on the other hand, are already at @3 level using one population. Both drop well below @2 using four populations. Sumter Jock Doe is @1.67 when using the four population combo of Danish + Irish + Irish + Spanish Cataluna.

Sumter Jane Doe is even better. Her four population number is all the way down to @1.32 when using the combo of Austrian + Irish + Irish + Irish.

I think @1.00000 etc is the lowest we go here, correct? That would mean absolute confidence level. Maybe not. I'm a math guy but it's other realms.

For reference purposes, of the 14 charts of Oracle 4 that DNA Doe Project has so thoughtfully provided so far among active cases, only one has better numbers than Sumter County Jane Doe. That would be Chattanooga John Doe, who begins below @3 at one population and drops all the way to @1.09 at four populations. There's one more Doe who has similar numbers to Sumter County Jock Doe, in the @1.67 range.

If I got this all wrong, well...it's interesting to look at anyway. There was greater variance than I anticipated.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure now that the populations are ranked from closest to least close. And you ideally want the closeness to be 1 or 2 which indicates the small degree of variance from Jane or Jock Doe's DNA profile. I've seen a few explanations from genealogy communities on how to interpret results so that seems to be the general way to look at things.

With regard to my own data in Oracle, I don't have populations as closely related as Jock and Jane Doe do (my top single closest population is @6--pretty bad), and it makes Oracle kind of useless for me. I am largely Irish and Polish yet the top populations for me (and the 3-populations approximation @2.5) are not nationalities that I've ever known about having a genetic connection to, let alone strong connections. Apparently Oracle is less accurate/more confusing than the results from most commercial DNA companies and obviously there have been population shifts and migrations over the centuries so interpreting results is definitely not an exact science and seems to be pretty complex.

I talked to someone whose Oracle report is virtually identical to Jock's... eerily similar, and this person is over half French Canadian; kinda interesting since French is very low down on the Oracle list for him too. Their "southwest france" and Spanish Castilla/Spanish Cantabria are in the exact same spots at the bottom of their Oracle rankings and have pretty much all the same nationalities in the exact same places and at very similar @ numbers

I don't think we can draw any real conclusions or rule anything out from the Does' Oracle reports, but they're fun to think about

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure now that the populations are ranked from closest to least close. And you ideally want the closeness to be 1 or 2 which indicates the small degree of variance from Jane or Jock Doe's DNA profile. I've seen a few explanations from genealogy communities on how to interpret results so that seems to be the general way to look at things.

With regard to my own data in Oracle, I don't have populations as closely related as Jock and Jane Doe do (my top single closest population is @6--pretty bad), and it makes Oracle kind of useless for me. I am largely Irish and Polish yet the top populations for me (and the 3-populations approximation @2.5) are not nationalities that I've ever known about having a genetic connection to, let alone strong connections. Apparently Oracle is less accurate/more confusing than the results from most commercial DNA companies and obviously there have been population shifts and migrations over the centuries so interpreting results is definitely not an exact science and seems to be pretty complex.

I talked to someone whose Oracle report is virtually identical to Jock's... eerily similar, and this person is over half French Canadian; kinda interesting since French is very low down on the Oracle list for him too. Their "southwest france" and Spanish Castilla/Spanish Cantabria are in the exact same spots at the bottom of their Oracle rankings and have pretty much all the same nationalities in the exact same places and at very similar @ numbers

I don't think we can draw any real conclusions or rule anything out from the Does' Oracle reports, but they're fun to think about

We have similar ancestry. I am Irish on my father's side and Polish on my mother's side. I haven't done Oracle 4 but my Ancestry numbers are 64% Irish and 23% Eastern Europe and Russia.

I still think it's possible the Sumter County Does are French Canadian.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

I don't know if this has been asked before, but if they are of British and European heritage (according to the Oracle info and DNA test), do you think it's possible they could be of Irish Traveler heritage?

Wow. Why hasn't this been speculated previously? It barely registered a few hours ago when I saw your comment. Then I was in my kitchen 15 minutes ago and it hit me...the Irish Travelers are based in South Carolina. I was sure of it. I remember those investigations on shows like 60 Minutes and 20/20 from decades ago.

The hub is Murphy Village, South Carolina. The television programs would infiltrate briefly and get some info, but generally scorned. Then outrage from the Travelers once they realized their lifestyle was being exposed.

Very much a closed society, and one that wouldn't think twice about not claiming members who had strayed and been killed.

The gist of those programs was that the Irish Travelers were con artists who would travel around and commit scams against outsiders, then return with the cash to the Village. They could be insurance scams and all types of things. The one featured on one of the prominent investigations centered on handyman scams. A handful of Travelers would approach local residents and offer services like roof repair and stuff like that. Then they'd get the money and take off, either after doing no work or sloppy unfinished work. Generally they would steal valuables from the home also. Very unflattering portrayal.

I make this a big underdog but I'm shocked nobody has proposed it previously. It certainly is more logical than all that Central America stuff. For one thing, you could see someone targeting the Does for a crime like this is they realized they either had been conned or were in the process of being conned.

 

[jessica-]

I saw that comment last night in the Grateful Doe subreddit. Sigh. I thought it was unfortunate the thread quickly took off in that direction.

IMO, it is still too much devotion to the mysterious angle of a couple fleeing due to political reasons or pressure, instead of the far more likely scenario that they were traveling amidst normalcy, until targeted at random and killed for property reasons, like their vehicle.

I was hoping that reddit thread would quickly attract genealogy experts who could interpret the Oracle 4 numbers.

I agree with you. I read the reddit thread first before I came here, and I kept thinking how it was most likely a couple traveling for the summer. So many people think they are or were undercoverd french nationals (?), but I don't think so.

 

[jessica-]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure now that the populations are ranked from closest to least close. And you ideally want the closeness to be 1 or 2 which indicates the small degree of variance from Jane or Jock Doe's DNA profile. I've seen a few explanations from genealogy communities on how to interpret results so that seems to be the general way to look at things.

With regard to my own data in Oracle, I don't have populations as closely related as Jock and Jane Doe do (my top single closest population is @6--pretty bad), and it makes Oracle kind of useless for me. I am largely Irish and Polish yet the top populations for me (and the 3-populations approximation @2.5) are not nationalities that I've ever known about having a genetic connection to, let alone strong connections. Apparently Oracle is less accurate/more confusing than the results from most commercial DNA companies and obviously there have been population shifts and migrations over the centuries so interpreting results is definitely not an exact science and seems to be pretty complex.

I talked to someone whose Oracle report is virtually identical to Jock's... eerily similar, and this person is over half French Canadian; kinda interesting since French is very low down on the Oracle list for him too. Their "southwest france" and Spanish Castilla/Spanish Cantabria are in the exact same spots at the bottom of their Oracle rankings and have pretty much all the same nationalities in the exact same places and at very similar @ numbers

I don't think we can draw any real conclusions or rule anything out from the Does' Oracle reports, but they're fun to think about

Canadian here, my grandfather identifies as french Canadian even though he is not fully french. My grandfathers mother was Irish and so were her parents, and his father was french and brittish. He grew up as a "french Canadian" and Identified as such due to speaking fluent french and living in Quebec, but I'm sure his dna would show a lot of Irish/scottish heritage. Canada is full of Irish "immigrants", and a lot of people have irish or scottish heritage in their lineage.

For example my background is Native, Irish, French, and british from my mother, and my dad is Italian and French. When I look online, I too have spanish origins because of my Italian ancestry. Canada has a lot of Irish and Italian residents as they all immigrated here before and after the war. I think it is highly possible they are still Canadian, and they could possibly be second or third generation Canadian residents which is why they may have not been reported missing.

Just my two cents.

 

[dotr]

FWIW..
Jock (given name) - Wikipedia
''Jock is a Scottish diminutive form of the forename "John"; it corresponds to Jack in England and Wales. It is also a nickname for someone of Scottish origin. It is also the collective names of or Scottish soldiers. Collectively known as "the Jocks".

 

[Ozoner]

FWIW..
Jock (given name) - Wikipedia
''Jock is a Scottish diminutive form of the forename "John"; it corresponds to Jack in England and Wales. It is also a nickname for someone of Scottish origin. It is also the collective names of or Scottish soldiers. Collectively known as "the Jocks".

Their skin tones are what would steer me away from full Irish or Scottish ancestry. (There are many people of Scottish descent in Nova Scotia and probably many francophones with mixed Scottish and French Acadian ancestry.)

 

[leilarose68]

Their skin tones are what would steer me away from full Irish or Scottish ancestry. (There are many people of Scottish descent in Nova Scotia and probably many francophones with mixed Scottish and French Acadian ancestry.)

According to their Oracle reports, Jock and Jane both have genetic similarities with Spanish populations (albeit lower on their population lists): Jane with Catalonia, which borders southwestern France, and Jock with Castilla and Cantabria, Spain, so that would explain their tanner skin tones. Spanish on Oracle can also point to Italian ancestry

 

[ks-ch]

Excuse me, was the name Jock given by LE or did „Jock“ refer to himself by this name and this was corroborated by witnesses? Could someone please clarify this? I always thought of Jacques and suggested that Jock was a name given instead of John to an unidentified individual.

 

[leilarose68]

Excuse me, was the name Jock given by LE or did „Jock“ refer to himself by this name and this was corroborated by witnesses? Could someone please clarify this? I always thought of Jacques and suggested that Jock was a name given instead of John to an unidentified individual.

"Jock" is the name he is commonly referred to when people discuss the case; you will see it on every site that discusses the case. I don't know if law enforcement officially started using "Jock" but it has become the standard way to refer to him among the true crime community online.

Obviously Jock and Jacques sound very similar. Jock is an American spin/phonetic spelling of what his name may have sounded like to Americans (since this is an American case & many Americans don't even know how Jacques is pronounced), and we don't know for absolute certain which one is correct or if the tip that gave the name Jock/Jacques was accurate. Also think about how hard-sounding the pronunciation of Jacques would be in a southern accent.

After Jock and Jane Doe were murdered, someone came forward and said he had a discussion at a campsite with whom he believed to be the John Doe, and that someone supposedly said the man introduced himself as Jock/Jacques. The guy also said that Jock/Jacques claimed he was from Canada. So yes, if the tip is accurate then his name is most likely Jacques but "Jock" has just become part of how people discuss the case at this point.

Jock is not another generic name for John Doe, it specifically is used just for this John Doe.

 

[Sherwood Park]

FWIW..
Jock (given name) - Wikipedia
''Jock is a Scottish diminutive form of the forename "John"; it corresponds to Jack in England and Wales. It is also a nickname for someone of Scottish origin. It is also the collective names of or Scottish soldiers. Collectively known as "the Jocks".

As a Canadian, I would say that if Jock Doe is from Canada, it is more likely that his name would be Jacques rather than Jock. Jock is not the type of name that one would have in 1970s Canada.

In Canada Jock is also a slang word for a male athlete.

 

[Sherwood Park]

Canadian here, my grandfather identifies as french Canadian even though he is not fully french. My grandfathers mother was Irish and so were her parents, and his father was french and brittish. He grew up as a "french Canadian" and Identified as such due to speaking fluent french and living in Quebec, but I'm sure his dna would show a lot of Irish/scottish heritage. Canada is full of Irish "immigrants", and a lot of people have irish or scottish heritage in their lineage.

For example my background is Native, Irish, French, and british from my mother, and my dad is Italian and French. When I look online, I too have spanish origins because of my Italian ancestry. Canada has a lot of Irish and Italian residents as they all immigrated here before and after the war. I think it is highly possible they are still Canadian, and they could possibly be second or third generation Canadian residents which is why they may have not been reported missing.

Just my two cents.

This is true, lots of people identify as French-Canadian because of the reasons you listed. I also wondered if Jacques might been of Jewish ancestry (from the Baltic side of his family). There is a notable population of Ashkenazi Jews in Quebec (Montreal). I'm wondering if someone in their community might recognize Jane/Jock Doe or heard of any community members who went missing back in the 1970s.

I went to school with a guy whose mother finally found her long lost son by sending a picture of him to every single Danish association in Canada. Someone recognized his photo and he was reunited with his mother before she passed away. This was before Facebook and Google

 

[victoriarobinson642]

This is true, lots of people identify as French-Canadian because of the reasons you listed. I also wondered if Jacques might been of Jewish ancestry (from the Baltic side of his family). There is a notable population of Ashkenazi Jews in Quebec (Montreal). I'm wondering if someone in their community might recognize Jane/Jock Doe or heard of any community members who went missing back in the 1970s.

Speaking as someone who's Ashkenazi Jewish, my heritage looks very different.


You can see the "Red Sea/West Asian", which makes up about 15% of mine. If Jock had Ashkenazi ancestry, it would probably show up with one of those on his Admixture pie chart, or somewhere in the 'Least-squares method' chart.

 

[Susikatze]

I agree. I cannot see any Ashkenazi heritage in Jock and Janes results. My husband is 100% Ashkenazi and his results are almost identical to Victoriarobinsons posted above me.
Very different from the Sumter Does.

Sumter Does are distinctively British Isles with a bit of Continental European. I think we should really get away from interpreting too much into their skin tones, they are neither Latino, nor Ashkenazi (besides that, my 100% AJ hubby is very white and not olive colored).

There are some Does that may have Ashkenazi heritage, judging from the spreadsheet, in particular Jonesport John Doe, but Sumter clearly do not have it.

 

[leilarose68]

I agree. I cannot see any Ashkenazi heritage in Jock and Janes results. My husband is 100% Ashkenazi and his results are almost identical to Victoriarobinsons posted above me.
Very different from the Sumter Does.

Sumter Does are distinctively British Isles with a bit of Continental European. I think we should really get away from interpreting too much into their skin tones, they are neither Latino, nor Ashkenazi (besides that, my 100% AJ hubby is very white and not olive colored).

There are some Does that may have Ashkenazi heritage, judging from the spreadsheet, in particular Jonesport John Doe, but Sumter clearly do not have it.

Oracle results are far from definitive, unfortunately... as I said before, I know someone who is over half French-Canadian and yet his actual French population result is the second lowest on the list of populations he has genetic ties to... sometimes it can seem accurate and other times it's vague and more confusing than helpful. My personal results, for instance, don't make a ton of sense in terms of the degree of relatedness to certain populations, especially compared to my Ancestry results. That said, yeah there is no reason to believe that the Sumter Does have Jewish heritage.

If the Oracle results for Jane and Jock Doe are accurate to some degree then it would seem likely that their olive-toned complexions come from having genetic ties to Spain and/or Italy; specific areas of Spain are highlighted in both of their results. Jock in particular definitely looks like he could be Spanish.

 

[Susikatze]

I dont go by the Oracle, my own Oracle are a bit of guesswork as well. It gets even worse when you do the mixed population mode. Its all statistics.

However, I primarily go by the piechart and first estimate with general geographic populations, not nationalities. And this imho clearly points to a non Hispanic/Latinx heritage. Very Northern European/British Isles plus a bit of continent.
I dont hold by the Argentina theory at all.