Identified! Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #7 Pam Buckley & James P Freund

[brett1968]

Checked DNA project website..these two are still pending....
If they were involved in drug smuggling, could be why no one has come forward...in fear they could implicate themselves in criminal activity. Drug deal gone bad? Hard to believe TWO identifiable faces are not recognized. Why hasn't one person come forward all this time ?

Whatever the motive for murder, it looks very much like a gangland hit where three shots are usual, especially the one under the chin, which is known as the 'insurance shot' to make sure they're dead.

If it was a simple robbery then why leave silver jewellery on the girl and an expensive 14 karat gold watch and ruby ring on him after going to all the trouble of removing any identification from them both, (if they had any on them at the time, that is)?

I think the girl has remained unidentified for so long because she was probably originally from some French speaking region of Europe, and that he really was from a French speaking area of Canada, as stated when he was at the KOA campground.

Calling himself Jacques or Jock and owning a ring with the initials JPF on it indicates he was probably being honest about his name at least beginning with a J. Whilst choosing to hold onto his far more desirable and easier to sell watch and preferring instead to part with this initial engraved ring, (with a birthstone denoting December which may have been a parental birthday gift), could reveal that it no longer held any sentimental value for him, possibly proving the break with his father as authentic.

I suspect the ring was a gift from his estranged father and as such selling it was an act of emotional revenge against this parent who had disowned him, in which case we could be pretty sure his initials really were JPF.

 

[brett1968]

Checked DNA project website..these two are still pending....
If they were involved in drug smuggling, could be why no one has come forward...in fear they could implicate themselves in criminal activity. Drug deal gone bad? Hard to believe TWO identifiable faces are not recognized. Why hasn't one person come forward all this time ?

Whatever the motive for murder, it looks very much like a gangland hit where three shots are usual, especially the one under the chin, which is known as the 'insurance shot' to make sure they're dead.

If it was a simple robbery then why leave silver jewellery on the girl and an expensive 14 karat gold watch and ruby ring on him after going to all the trouble of removing any identification from them both, (if they had any on them at the time, that is)?

I think the girl has remained unidentified for so long because she was probably originally from some French speaking region of Europe, and that he really was from a French speaking area of Canada, as stated when he was at the KOA campground.

Calling himself Jacques or Jock and owning a ring with the initials JPF on it indicates he was probably being honest about his name at least beginning with a J. Whilst choosing to hold onto his far more desirable and easier to sell watch and preferring instead to part with this initial engraved ring, (with a birthstone denoting December which may have been a parental birthday gift), could reveal that it no longer held any sentimental value for him, possibly proving the break with his father as authentic.

I suspect the ring was a gift from his estranged father and as such selling it was an act of emotional revenge against a parent who had disowned him, in which case we could be pretty sure his initials really were JPF.

 

[branmuffin]

Whatever the motive for murder, it looks very much like a gangland hit where three shots are usual, especially the one under the chin, which is known as the 'insurance shot' to make sure they're dead.

If it was a simple robbery then why leave silver jewellery on the girl and an expensive 14 karat gold watch and ruby ring on him after going to all the trouble of removing any identification from them both, (if they had any on them at the time, that is)?

I think the girl has remained unidentified for so long because she was probably originally from some French speaking region of Europe, and that he really was from a French speaking area of Canada, as stated when he was at the KOA campground.

Calling himself Jacques or Jock and owning a ring with the initials JPF on it indicates he was probably being honest about his name at least beginning with a J. Whilst choosing to hold onto his far more desirable and easier to sell watch and preferring instead to part with this initial engraved ring, (with a birthstone denoting December which may have been a parental birthday gift), could reveal that it no longer held any sentimental value for him, possibly proving the break with his father as authentic.

I suspect the ring was a gift from his estranged father and as such selling it was an act of emotional revenge against a parent who had disowned him, in which case we could be pretty sure his initials really were JPF.

You have time to delete this double post.

 

[brett1968]

You have time to delete this double post.

Sorry! I can't work out how to delete it. Could you please advise?

 

[branmuffin]

Sorry! I can't work out how to delete it. Could you please advise?

Don't worry! It happens sometimes if you hit the post reply button more than once. Not a big deal. But if it happens again you can remove the content within an hour of posting by hitting the edit button and saying it was a duplicate post. I've seen quite a few; I've done it myself a couple of times!!

 

[Victoria Chambers]

Don't worry! It happens sometimes if you hit the post reply button more than once. Not a big deal. But if it happens again you can remove the content within an hour of posting by hitting the edit button and saying it was a duplicate post. I've seen quite a few; I've done it myself a couple of times!!

This comment is sooooo helpful to me.. I am forever doing the same thing and also could not figure out how to delete. So Thank You Very Much! X

 

[carbuff]

Don't worry! It happens sometimes if you hit the post reply button more than once. Not a big deal. But if it happens again you can remove the content within an hour of posting by hitting the edit button and saying it was a duplicate post. I've seen quite a few; I've done it myself a couple of times!!

It can also happen when the system is busy and it accidentally duplicates your post. Or sometimes triplicate.

 

[brett1968]

It can also happen when the system is busy and it accidentally duplicates your post. Or sometimes triplicate.

Dentists are also considered doctors if they are an oral surgeon. Any dentist doing highly unusual and sought after work would be both well known and wealthy.

Jacques/Jock clearly came from a wealthy background and had highly unusual dental work. I wonder if this expensive dental work could have been done on him by a dentist who was his own father and that he was actually an oral surgeon?

If his father was a wealthy and prominent oral surgeon and he was doing work on his own son's teeth and they had a falling out this might explain why Jock's dental work looked like it had been discontinued midway through.

 

[T rex]

Dentists are also considered doctors if they are an oral surgeon. Any dentist doing highly unusual and sought after work would be both well known and wealthy.

Jacques/Jock clearly came from a wealthy background and had highly unusual dental work. I wonder if this expensive dental work could have been done on him by a dentist who was his own father and that he was actually an oral surgeon?

If his father was a wealthy and prominent oral surgeon and he was doing work on his own son's teeth and they had a falling out this might explain why Jock's dental work looked like it had been discontinued midway through.

I'm not always sure how credible the KOA account is but if it is true and assuming the victim was telling the truth then it's possible his father was the dentist that did the work or he could have had it done at a university while attending medical school and then he dropped out to pursue the teaching career and that's why the work is incomplete.
All this hinges on everything in the account being true. This campground employee wasn't positive that this was the man he talked to so neither am I.
I don't necessarily believe he had to be wealthy either. He could have been paying in increments and whose to say what incomplete is? A dentist may say it was incomplete but in the end it's the person that's having the work done that gets to decide. Jock may have considered it complete and had no intentions of going back.

 

[T rex]

My BF is a Dentist. I had him look at our Male victims xrays. In his OPINION, he had extensive dental work that would have been pricey for the 1970's. Also, he feels that due to the location of bridge and crown work, it would have been caused from years of earlier neglect rather than contact sports.

I agree with your friend the dentist. This would be a lot of damage to happen in an accident and the victim had no scars on his face and there is no mention of a broke jaw bone or other facial bones. I just don't see it and this is also another reason to think maybe he didn't come from a wealthy family. It has been pointed out several times on this thread. If he was wealthy then why were his teeth in this shape to start with? Wouldn't they have been maintained better over the years?

 

[carbuff]

I agree with your friend the dentist. This would be a lot of damage to happen in an accident and the victim had no scars on his face and there is no mention of a broke jaw bone or other facial bones. I just don't see it and this is also another reason to think maybe he didn't come from a wealthy family. It has been pointed out several times on this thread. If he was wealthy then why were his teeth in this shape to start with? Wouldn't they have been maintained better over the years?

Not necessarily. In the 60s and 70s we hadn't started doing fluoride and twice-yearly cleanings. We chewed gum and guzzled sugar-laden sodas. It's a wonder any of us has any teeth left.

 

[branmuffin]

I agree with your friend the dentist. This would be a lot of damage to happen in an accident and the victim had no scars on his face and there is no mention of a broke jaw bone or other facial bones. I just don't see it and this is also another reason to think maybe he didn't come from a wealthy family. It has been pointed out several times on this thread. If he was wealthy then why were his teeth in this shape to start with? Wouldn't they have been maintained better over the years?

Dental hygiene wasn't always a thing back in the day. And French Canadians were considered to have the worst dental hygiene in Canada comparable to third world countries. A combination of lower income, a love of sweets and the highest percentage of smokers back then.

 

[T rex]

Dental hygiene wasn't always a thing back in the day. And French Canadians were considered to have the worst dental hygiene in Canada comparable to third world countries. A combination of lower income, a love of sweets and the highest percentage of smokers back then.

I don't know how dental hygiene was in Canada so I'll take your word for that but the "lower income" part of your post is the point I was trying to make. That and I don't believe the damage to to the victims teeth was a result of an accident or contact sports.

 

[carbuff]

Truthfully, I don't believe for a minute that either of them is French-Canadian, except by coincidence. That whole story seems like a smokescreen or a red herring.

 

[branmuffin]

Truthfully, I don't believe for a minute that either of them is French-Canadian, except by coincidence. That whole story seems like a smokescreen or a red herring.

I don't know if I would categorize them as red herrings but I don't believe the Sumter Does are Guy and Lucie anymore. Initially, based on statements from others, I thought both victims were French Canadians, especially the female, specifically being Lucie Gelinas.

From my experience with French-Canadians from Noranda, Rimouski, Quebec City and Riviere-du-Loup,
back in the day, very few could speak English if they lived beyond Montreal. That kind of bolstered my impression of the Sumter Jane Doe being Lucie since no-one has ever mentioned her speaking, period. The fact she had an abdominal scar didn't concern me much since I've seen more than one explanation of that scar over the years.

I could never reconcile the Sumter John Doe being her missing traveling partner, though. Guy Carignan was very slim and a few inches smaller than our John Doe. Plus his facial features didn't resemble him at all.

I'm still on board with the idea they are some of the disappeared from some South American countries that went through political upheavals. Mostly, that was based on the way they were murdered: those three shots, all meant to kill without marring physical appearance for identification purposes.


But a lot of other countries experienced political upheaval in the 1970s. Argentina, Turkey, Iran, Lebanon, and Germany.

I wondered about this guy. A German terrorist, a member of the RAF more commonly known as the Baader Meinhof gang. He was offered immunity, given half a million Deutchmarks and relocated to the US. His name was Gerhard Muller (umlaut over the 'U'). I have heard conflicting information regarding his time in prison, from being released in 1975 or 1979, which if the latter is true, it ain't him.

 

[wmm85]

In regards to them being French Canadian, we should also look beyond Quebec - Ontario and New Brunswick have a large number of French Canadians. There is also an interesting dialect in parts of New Brunswick (around Moncton area) called “Chiac”. It’s a bizarre mix of French and English. Most French New Brunswickers identify as “Acadian” and share ancestral ties with the Acadians of Louisiana.

 

[carbuff]

A fair number of "French-Canadians" in northern New England as well.

 

[Vern]

In regards to them being French Canadian, we should also look beyond Quebec - Ontario and New Brunswick have a large number of French Canadians. There is also an interesting dialect in parts of New Brunswick (around Moncton area) called “Chiac”. It’s a bizarre mix of French and English. Most French New Brunswickers identify as “Acadian” and share ancestral ties with the Acadians of Louisiana.

J'suis née au Nouveau-Brunswick. Peut-être comme, "S'il vous plaît me-donnez un hot-dog all dressed?" Chiac (voted the most beautiful language [it's Acadian, just a local dialect] in the world a couple years ago BTW, LOL) also has some gems when speaking english such as "close the lights" or in French "fermez les lights" vice the proper "fermez les lumieres". I'm being transferred to the Garrison in Moncton this year so hubby and I are currently searching a house in Shediac area. He's a Franco-Ontarian so it sometimes gets really interesting in this house. He'll be swamped by more like me!

I've been through the New Brunswick missing persons and there is no-one, at least no-one who was reported missing, that fits the profiles here. There is a man named John, but was in his 50s so he doesn't work. I'm going to try Nova Scotia as they have many Acadians down through the Evangeline Trail.

Anybody aware of a site from France with historic missing persons files?

I suppose, he could be a Jaquitar out of Newfoundland as well.

 

[Ozoner]

I find it odd that Jock stated that it was his father who had disowned him. Why did he not instead say 'my parents disowned me'? Excluding his mother from this admission indicates perhaps, (as was not uncommon in that time period), she was in complete submission to her husband's wishes. But, even then, she's still his parent and by not standing up for him she is, by default, guilty of passively disowning him as well and so it makes little sense that he didn't instead say 'my parents'.

Perhaps she had passed away when he was much younger? He may have been an only child as a result. This might explain why after decades and so very much interest from many skilled researchers that it seems no family member has sought to find him though any official channel.

In regards to them being French Canadian, we should also look beyond Quebec - Ontario and New Brunswick have a large number of French Canadians. There is also an interesting dialect in parts of New Brunswick (around Moncton area) called “Chiac”. It’s a bizarre mix of French and English. Most French New Brunswickers identify as “Acadian” and share ancestral ties with the Acadians of Louisiana.

It's interesting that you should mention Moncton. Years ago I had a conversation with a man named Stephen White who worked at the University of Moncton. (I just looked him up online; he was and may still be their official genealogist.) In the course of our conversation we ended up discussing runaways, and Monsieur White observed that a boy will almost never run away from home (for good) if his mother is still living. I wonder if that holds true for adult males; if Jacques had broken off all contact with his family, it may well be, as brett1968 suggested, that his mother was already dead.

 

[Giuc0]

Not sure what it worth, but by looking at the enforced disappeared in Chili, some US citizens have been made disappeared: Anexo:Detenidos desaparecidos de Chile - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre (I saw one in Los Angeles and the "Jamás notificados" contain a serious list of US citizens).

Also, declassified CIA archives in Argentina refer about cooperation with enforced disappearances between the two countries: Desclasificados - La inteligencia de EEUU durante la dictadura
Got my link from the website "Abuelas de Plaza de Mayo" which is a reputable association in Argentina.
www.abuelas.org.ar

Warning: the website "Declasificados" is a real pain to use. Finding the slightest element takes an inordinate amount of time.


But now that we have more concrete elements about enforced disappearances in US linked to the Latin American dictatures in the 70's and 80's, we can hopefully find a way to identify our couple!