myths debunked

Status
Not open for further replies.
35 alleles were found in total.

Of these 35, 20 were identified as McCann.

19 of them were identified as belonging to a child of the McCann...19 because Gerry and Kate shared one of them (maybe the liar allele).

So while scientists cannot say the DNA found is definitely Madeleine's, they can and DID say that the DNA is consistent with hers.

The real question in my mind is this -

Why did they locate DNA consistent with Maddie's, at the CADAVER ALERT sites?
 
This is all such a waste of time The McCanns have never been charged with anything, and never will be, simply because they are not guilty. And perhaps more to the point, no one has ever come up with any proof to the contrary. No one has ever proved that they are in fact guilty because there is no proof.
I do not have to prove their innocence. It remains the need of any prosecutor to prove otherwise. This will never happen.
It is over and done, beyond a desire to find Madeleine.

I have no need to debate on this subject because there is nothing to debate.

That's fine. Not everyone agrees with you and they are entitled to discuss the subject until the cows come home, if they wish. There is no requirement that you read and/or respond to their posts. If you feel it is a done deal, that's great, perhaps there are other threads/cases you might like to take a look at? See if you can help there? We have several UK and Australian cases on the boards right now that would welcome your help and thoughts.

Salem
 
[

Gerry is a cardiologist, I have linked the required training before you can even apply to be a cardiologist, in Australia and New Zealand -

In Australia advanced training must be undertaken at sites that are accredited by the SAC. For the training program to be approved, the proposed site must offer significant experience and meet other requirements of the SAC. A list of sites suitable for training is available from the SAC. The category levels relate to the range of cardiac services provided. Trainees will be able to obtain training at level 1 - 4 hospitals as set out below:LEVEL

1 2a 2b 2c 4
Clinical Training
Echocardiography + + + + +
Catheterisation Lab + + + + +
Angioplasty + + + + -
Surgery + + - - -
Electrophysiology Lab + - + - -
Level 1: 2 years of core training
Level 2: 2 years of core training, with the proviso that trainees must spend 6 months of training in a hospital which has cardiac surgery and must fulfil the requirements for EP experience
Level 4: 1 year of non core training will usually be approved


http://www.racp.edu.au/training/adult2003/advanced/vocational/cardiology4.htm

I sincerely doubt the UK Medical Profession allows one to go straight from Uni to being a Cardidologist either, but apparently you know more than me on that...

No doubt you're right about the education but a cardiologist is not the same thing as a heart surgeon although they have to know something about heart surgery as part of their training. Basically cardiology is a branch of internal medicine that specializes in the heart and heart surgery is a branch of surgery that specializes in the heart. Cardiologists do not tend to do heart surgery as part of their day job, they are more concerned with diagnosing and conservative treatments. Both are professionals in their own field. Neither cardiologists nor heart surgeons are qualified straight from the med school without extensive clinical and theoretical training in their specialty.

Not sure what this has to do with Madeleine.
 
Clutchbag,
the reason it is possible to say the dna on the card fobb is from gerry, whilst it is not possible to say madeleine contributed to the material in the boot is because the material on the fobb came from one individuel, whereas the material in th eboot came from three to five people, and no allele could be attributed to coming from the same person.
If the 15 allleles that madeleine shared could have been shown to come from one person, then that woudl have been conclusive it was madeleine's. But it was impossible to ascertain this, all that could be said was that those 15 alleles could have come from 1,2,3, 4, or 5 people and that those 15 alleles woudl be found in the parents, grandparents, and to a lesser extent other relatives dna and that they all used the car.

sapphire,
I really do not see how you can type that about the dna, it is wrong. The material found in the boot consisted of 37 different alleles, and there was no way to tell according to lowe if it cam from the mccanns or one of their children so it is untrue that 19 of them were identified as belonging to a mccann child. I do not see why you are now claiming that the material came from both her parents and therefore must be hers? It sounds as if you have read what I wrote about inheritance and got confused, because I am sorry but it is clear you do not understand what the lowe report actually says about the material found.

It is also untrue that the evrd alerted to the spot where this material was found. The evrd alerted to the place where gerry mccanns dna was found.

and I have never heard of wikileaks being hacked.

I also do not see why you are claiming that gerry mckinnon found information to do with the mccanns. h he was caught hacking five years before madeleine disappeared - are you claiming the us government had infomation in the pentagon about covering up the disappearence of a child from the north of england before she was even conceived? because you quite clearly stated mcKinnon was involved in uncovering this?

You have also never shown proof of a cover-up. the wikileaks cable (which if people could be bothered was avai;able via foi requests so not exactly hidden), mentions nothing of a cover-up, or ambassadors helping. It simple states that the Uk ambassador gossiped with the US ambassador about a topic in the world news and said he thought that the currect evidence against the mccanns [which at this point was the dogs and the dna examination] was developed by the british police. Not exactly shocking as the files state that the british police helped to bring in the dogs, and get the fss to look at the dna. No where does it say the british police first suspected the mccanns. You have claimed the cable states things which it does not.

as for gerry being a heart surgeon. he is a cardiologist, a different thing. The fact that his title is Dr is a clue as in the Uk surgeons (who reach a certain level) are referred to as MR, but physicians remain as Dr even though they reach consultancy level (and gerry is a consultant).

the claims that have been made to try to implicate the mccanns are bordering on the absurd. I mean we have had accusations of three way international governmental cover-ups, claim a man caught hacking five years before the child disappeared had uncovered evidence of a coverup, accusations of freemasonary (how exactly does that make someone a criminal anyway), claims that finding the matching alleles in a mixed sample is indicitive it belongs to madeleine, claims that grime, harrison and operation rectangle are all wrong about the evrds abilities, oh and that operation rectangle somehow covered up child murders, claims that the mccanns moved a body around in front of hundreds of witnesses, claims that scotland yard do not know what they are doing, claims that if someone is convicted of a crime they are not a criminal unless their prison sentance is not suspended, claims that violence towards women is acceptable, claims that torturing people until they say what the torturer wants to hear is OK in police investigations etc. Is it any wonder these claims do not get taken seriously by anyone in any form of authority?

the fact is thta not one person has put up proof of any evidence against the mccanns, whilst people have demonstrated that it is in fact posisble for a stranger to walk in via an unlocked door, pick a child up and walk out again. Plus people have linked to scotland yard stating they believe it was a stranger, as well as to information about the other break ins in the complex.
If people are so sure of the mccanns guilt, then demonstrate the evidence against them and contact the police. But no-one has. In real life as it were people like tony bennett have claimed their documents contain truth but have failed spectaculary to demonstrate this, and have ended up in court again and again (and not just for libeling the mccanns). the british media admitted they wrote stories with not a shred of evidence, and Lord Justice leveson confirmed that the mccanns had been victims of untrue accusations and defamation. There is just not one shred of evidence that supports the nasty accusations made against them.
 
this answer is so full of inaccurate statements and false hoods that is is probably not worth getting into a debate - we will never agree

but for what it is worth.........

Gerry was not a heart surgeon never was and still isnt

He wasnt a free mason either

He didnt lie about the windows being jemmied

You can see the flat from where they were just not very well

they didnt drink 14 bottles of wine

Gerrys DNA was the only one that was identified from the car search - on the key fob - no other DNA was 100% identified

Gordon Brown is not a freemason

Tony Blair Is not a freemason

The ambassadors of three countries are not involved in a cover up or anything like that ..........

Gary Mckinnon was arrested years before 2007 how on earth did he find info on the mcanns ????

The US were still pushing for extradition till this year - Teresa May refused it in health grounds as he has aspurgers - he will still serve a sentence in this country

all the other stuff about drugs and corrupt politicians = well I have no idea what you are going about and no idea what this has to do with the case

The DNA reports are all clear no conclusive evidence whatsoever that Maddys DNA wasfound in the car

So please do not accuse other of posting inaccurate statements when you seem to make up information as you go along ,

There's one statement that is proven false already!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-face-no-further-action-says-cps-8417875.html

"Against this background, the joint CPS/police panel recommended to the assistant commissioner of the Metropolitan Police that he should not commence a new criminal investigation into Mr McKinnon. The assistant commissioner of the Metropolitan Police has accepted that advice."

Here is the next one,

Quote Gord
He didnt lie about the windows being jemmied

Gerry told me when they went back the shutters to the room were broken, they were jemmied up and she was gone," said Mr Healy. "She'd been taken from the chalet. The door was open.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/may/05/world.topstories31

If you are going to make statements rubbishing other posts, at least get them right
 
The statement about mckinnon is not incorrect, May did decide that ay sentance to be served as a result of the alleged hacking woudl be served in the UK not the US, but as it turned out he is not going to be prosecuted anyway.

And no where have you provided any first hand statements from either gerry or kate saying the window had been jemmied. You have provided a media report stating that Mr healey said the mccanns were staying in a chalet (as opposed to a flat), and that gerry had said the shutters were broken, and then goes on to say jemmied. besides which why is it suspicious if the mccanns first thought was that soemone had jemmied the shutters - were they expected to make a full investgation in the first few minutes of how the shutters wer eopened. It really is clutching at straws trying to claim they are guilty because a newspaper said that someone else said that the mccanns may have thought the window was jemmied in the first hour or so.

Another incosistency with those trying to imply the mccanns are guilty si the way they talk about them going out that evening. On the one hand they are claiming the mccanns were taking part in a criminal conspiracy and setting the scene as it were that evening (i think we can safely say the plan coudl not have been formulated in five minutes they were away for), on the other hand they are very nasty saying they were only interested in partying that night and drank multiple bottles of wine and were drunk! They do not exactly go together.
 
Brit1981 re your post number 64, read back i was not asking about the boot dna, the sample was from behind the sofa

Regarding the shutters being jemmied there is no first hand statements from the mccanns but verbatim second hand statements from at least two people, one kate mccann to her cousin michelle thompson, who was told on the phone at around 3am by kate that the shutters had been forced,you can find this in her police statement in the files, the other gerry mccanns sister, who said on live tv that gerry had told her the shutters were jemmied, the video is readily available,i doubt either of them imagined this

There is also jill renwick, a friend, who was called by kate mccann early the next morning, jill went on gmtv and said the shutters had been broken, again, the video is readily available, do shout if you have difficulty finding them

Ergo the jemmied, broken shutters issue is not a *myth*
 
The material from behind the sofa was I beleive an inconclusive sample, that could have belonged to either gerry or madeleine, but could not be confirmed as either i.e neither of the two could be confirmed or ruled out as donors.

As not one first hand account has the mccanns saying the windows were jemmied it is a myth they are confirmed as saying this. These early reports also state there was a shelf in the bedroom where cuddle cat wa splaced, but there was no such shelf.

besides why is it suspicious that the mccanns thought the window had been forced (the phrase jemmied is often used as a generic phrase to cover forcing). If they believed they had left it shut, and came back to find it open then the natural assumption in those first few paniked hours would be that it had been forced. As it stands we have no primary sources that have the mccanns stating the window had been forced, and no reason to think it is suspicious if there assumption was that the window had been forced. If I came back home to find a window I had left shut opened, I would assume at first that it had been somehow forced.
 
There's one statement that is proven false already!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-face-no-further-action-says-cps-8417875.html



Here is the next one,

Quote Gord




http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/may/05/world.topstories31

If you are going to make statements rubbishing other posts, at least get them right


when i made my comment about gary mckininon it was the case that he would serve his sentence in the UK - if you note the date of the article the PPS has only just decided that they wont carry on with the prosecution .- after my comment

In any terms I am not even sure what he has to do with this case he was arrested in 2002 and his computers siezed then - he since then been on bail


The whole arfgument about the shutters being jemmied or who said they were just doesnt make sense to me if gerry THOUGHT that they ahd been what is suspicious about that , if that was his impression at the time then that is what he thought -
 
when i made my comment about gary mckininon it was the case that he would serve his sentence in the UK - if you note the date of the article the PPS has only just decided that they wont carry on with the prosecution .- after my comment

In any terms I am not even sure what he has to do with this case he was arrested in 2002 and his computers siezed then - he since then been on bail


The whole arfgument about the shutters being jemmied or who said they were just doesnt make sense to me if gerry THOUGHT that they ahd been what is suspicious about that , if that was his impression at the time then that is what he thought -

You made the statements in the post as though they were facts, they werent.
You stated that neither Blair Gerry McCann and Gordon Brown are freemasons, do you have proof of that?
My point is, its no good bashing someones claims if they are not backed up with proof, we can all state anything we want, but it doesnt make it true

As for the shutters,
Quote Gord
if gerry THOUGHT that they ahd been what is suspicious about that , if that was his impression at the time then that is what he thought

If there was no evidence of the shutters being forced yet they were telling everyone that they had been, I would say that was very suspicious.
Why would someone make a statement to close family like has been suggested and confirmed by direct press reports attributed to family members, if it wasnt true?
They would have known by the condition of the shutters if they had been jemmied or forced, yet there is no evidence of this - imo that is suspicious
 
You made the statements in the post as though they were facts, they werent.
You stated that neither Blair Gerry McCann and Gordon Brown are freemasons, do you have proof of that?
My point is, its no good bashing someones claims if they are not backed up with proof, we can all state anything we want, but it doesnt make it true

As for the shutters,
Quote Gord

If there was no evidence of the shutters being forced yet they were telling everyone that they had been, I would say that was very suspicious.
Why would someone make a statement to close family like has been suggested and confirmed by direct press reports attributed to family members, if it wasnt true?
They would have known by the condition of the shutters if they had been jemmied or forced, yet there is no evidence of this - imo that is suspicious


If this is the case now that every statement however redicoulous has to be 100% proved to be correct then we might as well just pack up with debate go back and forward with prove it - i

I can state that Gerry is a member of the Klux Klux Klan - which is obviously absurd , but if I cant prove he isnt then hey ho

OK I dont know 100% that Gordon Brown was a secret mason - or that garry mckinnon had recently just discovered by hacking into secret files that there was a major cover up - but the chances are he didnt

if we are using that rule to judge comment then nothing posted here can ever be accepted as fact - as we are all using files from the net that we dont even know are 100% accurate
 
Question - how do you prove someone is not a Freemason?
 
Since the title of this thread is 'Myths Debunked' I believe debunking the conspiracy of freemasonry is applicable.

As a young girl, stateside, I and my sister were involved with Job's Daughters. My brother was involved with Demolay. Both were youth organizations stemming from Freemasons and Eastern Star.

It taught us discipline, self-confidence, compassion, leadership skills and teamwork. Most of our efforts were fundraising for charities - like annual car washes, Easter Egg Hunts, Pancake Breakfasts, and Pictures with Santa; visiting the elderly in care homes, hosting dinners and bake sales to benefit our local communities, Toys for Tots, and the like. We also had annual get-togethers much like summer camp - one in the state and another on a national stage where young women were honoured for their achievements and efforts. There was a huge emphasis on a bethel or chapter working together for a greater good.

Every year, at this time, we would be visiting nursing homes - taking small gifts we'd crafted or cookies we baked - to people who were largely forgotten about. I have very fond memories of those excursions and how much it taught me about how big the world is - but how a small thing can matter so much.

There is pomp and circumstance - complete with costume and ritual - and perhaps for those reasons, and its inherent secrecy, it causes it to remain largely misunderstood or nefariously suspicious. But for me being part of it was a wonderful, personally evolving experience still with me decades later.

JME FWIW
 
I'm so completely lost... I don't have the slightest clue what Gordon Brown has to do with anything. Suppose he is a freemason... it means that Madeleine's fate was, what? If he isn't a freemason... it changes the probability that Madeleine was killed/abducted, how?
 
Since the title of this thread is 'Myths Debunked' I believe debunking the conspiracy of freemasonry is applicable.

As a young girl, stateside, I and my sister were involved with Job's Daughters. My brother was involved with Demolay. Both were youth organizations stemming from Freemasons and Eastern Star.

It taught us discipline, self-confidence, compassion, leadership skills and teamwork. Most of our efforts were fundraising for charities - like annual car washes, Easter Egg Hunts, Pancake Breakfasts, and Pictures with Santa; visiting the elderly in care homes, hosting dinners and bake sales to benefit our local communities, Toys for Tots, and the like. We also had annual get-togethers much like summer camp - one in the state and another on a national stage where young women were honoured for their achievements and efforts. There was a huge emphasis on a bethel or chapter working together for a greater good.

Every year, at this time, we would be visiting nursing homes - taking small gifts we'd crafted or cookies we baked - to people who were largely forgotten about. I have very fond memories of those excursions and how much it taught me about how big the world is - but how a small thing can matter so much.

There is pomp and circumstance - complete with costume and ritual - and perhaps for those reasons, and its inherent secrecy, it causes it to remain largely misunderstood or nefariously suspicious. But for me being part of it was a wonderful, personally evolving experience still with me decades later.

JME FWIW

I think the masons is generational thing - my fathers generation beuing a mason wasnt so un common among certain professions and it didnt have the stigma it seems to have gained now about being a secret society

30 years ago most police officers on the up would be approached to join the lodge - nowadays it is the opposite where police will be actively discouraged to be masons - right or wrong.

My father was a mason - for him it was more of an excuse to go drinking with his mates ( brethern ) once a week ! -

I know UK politics and it is inconceivable that a serving UK PM in todays climate of openess and press scrutiny that any senior cabinet member would be a mason or a member of any organisation like it. 30 years ago maybe - but not now,

I will add the obligatory MOO as I dont have categoric proof that this is the case - I dont know every minutae of Cameron , Brown , Blair etc

I am also pretty sure that Brown wasnt a member of the mujahadin or black sash terrorist cell - but can be 100% sure
icon7.gif
 
I'm so completely lost... I don't have the slightest clue what Gordon Brown has to do with anything. Suppose he is a freemason... it means that Madeleine's fate was, what? If he isn't a freemason... it changes the probability that Madeleine was killed/abducted, how?

Its a bit like the Franklin conspiracy. If Brown, Blair and Gerry McCann were Freemasons then they were all covering for each other, because that's what Freemasons do in conspiracy lore. Like the Illuminati and the CIA.

In reality, there's no evidence that any of the above were ever Freemasons, no evidence that Freemasons have ever conspired to cover up the murder or accidental death of any child ever, and if Tony Blair ever was a Freemason he certainly isn't now, (he's converted to Catholicism since he retired).
 
Yeah, be that how it may, even if it could be proven that freemasons do it all the time, it wasn't Gordon Brown investigating the crime so how would he have hidden or destroyed evidence? Wouldn't you have to dig up conspirators in the Portuguese police?
 
Yes, if you're dealing with pesky things like reality, but conspiracy theories don't work that way.
 
The words "conspiracy theory' and 'cover up' are emotive and extreme descriptions of what really happened.

What really happened is this - the McCanns had a direct line to Gordon Brown who was Chancellor at the time, and via Brown, to Blair.

Brown and Blair suffered from the same knee jerk reaction as most of us - these poor people, they have lost their little girl and the PJ are incompetent fools, lets help them.

Unfortunately, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Once it became clear that the British Police sent to assist the McCanns, had developed evidence against them, the assistance given became a "hot potato" and Brown, Blair, and now Cameron, wish the McCanns would just go away.

Some insist on using the words 'cover up' and "conspiracy" when the McCann managed to fool most people around them. The politician type people decided the investigation was getting ugly and (for whatever reason) cooperation ceased between the PJ and the British.

Whether this new SY "review" will be impartial, is a matter of doubt.

Mainly due to the incomprehensible actions of Andy Redmond going on breakfast tv and spouting his opinion as fact, when only one quarter of the way through the review.

For those who think these things never happen, can you please explain why a senior officer of SY would say such things, so early in an investigation?

I have never, ever heard of breakfast tv being used to spout opinion disguised as fact by a senior policeman actively involved in an investigation, unless it has been in some oppressive regime such Iraq.

It is absurd, unprofessional and unprecedented yet once again, is explained away by the McCann supporters as entirely regular.

None of these behaviours are regular. Look at Ben Needham's mother, who received exactly zero support or assistance from anyone in the UK.

I think these irregularities should be explained. Those with an enquiring mind who do not believe everything they are being told, need to press for answers and clarity.

But somehow, the Establishment has curled itself like a protective shell around the McCann. Would this have happened if Gerry was a garbo from Liverpool instead of one of the foremost cardiac specialists in Europe and a rugby player and fellow Scots like Gordon and Tony?

I doubt it, and I find it quite alarming that no one in the UK is apparently pushing for an explanation, except perhaps Tony Bennet, who is facing the entire heft of the McCann Censorship Tactics.

MOO
 
How do you think Blair and Brown benefit from protecting the McCanns? I'd have thought it's no skin off their nose if rugby players and fellow Scots get arrested for something, it happens quite regularly. If the British police developed evidence against them, it could have been a great PR opportunity (Look how great our police is, we solved this British girl's disappearance). Certainly better than Redwood's silly Schroedinger's cat approach, "we have concluded that she is either alive or dead" (paraphrased).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
159
Guests online
3,415
Total visitors
3,574

Forum statistics

Threads
592,597
Messages
17,971,589
Members
228,839
Latest member
Shimona
Back
Top